Dr.Dre/Axl

[Lithium]

...

I think your statement about rap not being popular 20 years from now is made way to prematurely. As several posters in this thread have mentioned - albums from the golden age of hip hop still have a large influence on kids nowadays, in the same way as, for example, Appetite for Destruction or Led Zeppelin IV. To bring some of my own personal experiences with this, N.W.A.'s Straight Outta Compton was released more than two decades ago, and that is the album that really got me into hip hop and rap music back when I was 14, in 2006. ..

And with those words, you just proved my point. You're a 16-year old kid who is following the latest high school trend.

There's a reason why kids are going back and listening to classic, music-changing bands like Led Zeppelin, the Doors and even GNR today. It's because there is very little music out there today that compares. The lyrics and music transcend generations and kids still relate to those lyrics today. Kids are in a desert searching for really good music - and are only finding that music by going back a generation or two.

That's just great. I'm below 30, so of course I'm just following a trend by taking an interest in a genre that is popular right now. To be honest, I never really liked the way you control this forum and I rarely agreed with most of the things you posted, but at least I always thought you were level-headed and unbiased most of the time. Now you just fucked that up. Judging from your reply, you have read very few of my posts in this section. It's not even funny the way you prove your ignorance by accusing someone of following a trend, as well as denying the fact that they are knowledgeable enough to think independently, due to their age.

Do you even realize what you are saying here? You're denying the musicality of an entire genre of music, as well as telling all the fans of this genre that they are following some trend because they are enjoying it. People have already been following this genre since Sugarhill Gang and even before that; ergo, for several decades - I think I might have done so myself if I were old enough. But that's how it is, right? People listen to a certain type of music for 25 years just because it's a trend.

If you actually broadened your horizon and took a look outside that little place you call Rock, I'm sure even you could enjoy rap. You would see that most rappers don't just repeat "ho", "n-igga" and "yo" in their songs. Guys like Public Enemy, Tupac Shakur (IQ - 160) and Immortal Technique are very socially aware, and they use their music to get their political points across and express themselves.

[Lithium]

I don't think Buckethead's "best of" in 20 years from now will be ripping up the charts either. Hell, his music doesn't even rip up the charts today. :xmasssanta:

As for Kiss - they dropped the make-up a long time ago and let their music do the talking. Although I'm not a big fan of Kiss, I believe the band's music has stood the test of time.

Alice Cooper - his highly-theatrical shows (with guillotines, etc.) were extremely creative, and he simply dressed to fit the theme and tone of his music. I never considered that a gimmick.

David Bowie only wore the weird makeup in the early days, and he dropped that as he matured along with his music.

With all of these musicians you mentioned - they let the music do the talking - and they didn't try to sell records to naive kids using pointless derogatory lyrics aimed at promoting hate against a particular race or sex.

Are you actually telling me that Kiss are more about substance over style and that they don't write lyrics promoting sex? Wow.

[axl_on_drums]

Anybody who thinks Kiss's will stand the test of time, and not NWA, Snoop Dog or Eminem, doesn't need to be taken seriously.

[Lithium]

By the way, Mads, have you seen the new film Role Models?

If Kiss aren't perceived as a gimmick band who put on guitars and makeup to get girls and wrote songs solely about sex, why are these adult comedians putting it in their movies?

[madison]

You have seven pictures of Axl Rose in your sig! Do you not see the hypocrisy here?!

Umm, no. This is a GNR fan forum in case you forgot. This is why pics of the band's lead singer are in my sig.

That's just great. I'm below 30, so of course I'm just following a trend by taking an interest in a genre that is popular right now...

Under 30? Dude, you're 16 years old, so it's perfectly natural for you to be listening to whatever your high school buds do - and think it's the greatest thing since the latest post on your facebook page. But those who have been around longer - over the age of say 28 - or even young kids who don't care about what their buds are listening to - tend to be discovering the timeless music created by bands like Led Zeppelin, the Doors and even Pink Floyd. That's why so many of these older bands still sell millions of records every year - decades after they were released.

It's not a diss - it's just an observation.

.. Do you even realize what you are saying here? You're denying the musicality of an entire genre of music ..

I'm not denying anything. I've said some of them are talented, and certainly know which buttons to push to sell records to kids today. I mean, they're laughing all the way to the bank. But if they released a "greatest hits" 20 years from now, nobody would care because their lyrics reflect a trend-of-the-moment, not something that will be relevant 20 years from now. That's all I'm saying.

[SpUd_Jr]

AARRRGGHHHHH!!!

You have seven pictures of Axl Rose in your sig! Do you not see the hypocrisy here?!

Umm, no. This is a GNR fan forum in case you forgot. This is why pics of the band's lead singer are in my sig.

I posted that because you made a comment about how the good musicians don't "try to sell records to naive kids using pointless derogatory lyrics aimed at promoting hate against a particular race or sex."

Yet, you are a huge GnR fan?!

Edited March 15, 2009 by SpUd_Jr

[estranged 16]

madison, knowing you're a huge fan of NIN, here are some interesting things for you to look at:

- Trent Reznor personally asked Snoop Dogg AND Dr Dre to help him record a song for the Natural Born Killers soundtrack in 1994

- Trent personally enlisted Ice Cube to remix a track on his David Bowie collaboration, "I'm Afraid of Americans"

- Trent credited hip-hop and its revolutionary use of beats with allowing him to create Pretty Hate Machine, because without it, the ideas and technology wouldn't have existed

- Trent produced a full rap album by Saul Williams

- Trent attempted to create a full rap album with Timbaland (leading to Chris Cornell's diss on Twitter yesterday after Reznor slammed his Timbaland album)

- Trent rapped on El-P's song "Flyentology"

- Trent brought Dr. Dre into the studio to mix two songs on The Fragile (and he was reported to have helped mix the entire album)

One of your favorite musicians is heavily influenced by rap and has collaborated with rappers.

[madison]

I guarantee Lithium has more Led Zeppelin, The Doors, and Pink Floyd records than you do. Absolutely...

Thanks for the laugh.

.. I also guarantee that Lithium's friends don't listen to Rap from 20 FUCKING YEARS AGO. What you think is an observation rather than a diss is a diss, because its not true and it is discriminatory on every level. Like I said before, Snoop Dogg has been a major part of the music scene since 1992. Do you really think he will be forgotten so easily?

I've made my point.

Come back and talk to me when you've lived another decade or two when you've seen trends come and go among high school kids, and we'll see who's right. :xmasssanta:

Cheers.

madison, knowing you're a huge fan of NIN, here are some interesting things for you to look at:

- Trent Reznor personally asked Snoop Dogg AND Dr Dre to help him record a song for the Natural Born Killers soundtrack in 1994

- Trent personally enlisted Ice Cube to remix a track on his David Bowie collaboration, "I'm Afraid of Americans"

- Trent credited hip-hop and its revolutionary use of beats with allowing him to create Pretty Hate Machine, because without it, the ideas and technology wouldn't have existed

- Trent produced a full rap album by Saul Williams

- Trent attempted to create a full rap album with Timbaland (leading to Chris Cornell's diss on Twitter yesterday after Reznor slammed his Timbaland album)

- Trent rapped on El-P's song "Flyentology"

- Trent brought Dr. Dre into the studio to mix two songs on The Fragile (and he was reported to have helped mix the entire album)

One of your favorite musicians is heavily influenced by rap and has collaborated with rappers.

You're talking about Dre as a producer in the studio. That's an entirely different topic and the subject of another thread.

[Lithium]

That's just great. I'm below 30, so of course I'm just following a trend by taking an interest in a genre that is popular right now...

Under 30? Dude, you're 16 years old, so it's perfectly natural for you to be listening to whatever your high school buds do - and think it's the greatest thing since the latest post on your facebook page. But those who have been around longer - over the age of say 28 - or even young kids who don't care about what their buds are listening to - tend to be discovering the timeless music created by bands like Led Zeppelin, the Doors and even Pink Floyd. That's why so many of these older bands still sell millions of records every year - decades after they were released.

It's not a diss - it's just an observation.

.. Do you even realize what you are saying here? You're denying the musicality of an entire genre of music ..

I'm not denying anything. I've said some of them are talented, and certainly know which buttons to push to sell records to kids today. I mean, they're laughing all the way to the bank. But if they released a "greatest hits" 20 years from now, nobody would care because their lyrics reflect a trend-of-the-moment, not something that will be relevant 20 years from now. That's all I'm saying.

It's perfectly normal, yeah, but it's not like that for everyone, and definitely not me. Do you actually think I listen to all the different music that I listen to because of what my friends think? I'll tell you something, Madison, most of my friends who have looked through my iPod have either reacted with either of the following sentences: "dude, you have a fucked up music taste" or "JONI MITCHELL/MOZART/EMINEM?! [followed by laughter]". Very few of my friends listen to rap or hip hop, and those who do won't go any further than Tupac or Kanye West.

OK, what if Led Zeppelin, The Doors and Pink Floyd still have more mass appeal than rap will ever have? So what? The quality of an artist should not be judged by how many fans they have or how many records they have sold. Timelessness is a factor, yes, but I'd say it's far from the most important one.

[Black Monk Time]

Led Zeppelin, the Doors and Pink Floyd.

I wish I hadn't wasted my time posting in this thread now.

I mean, who wants to listen to a fresh, interesting form of music that is constantly revealing innovative new forms and sides to it when you can listen to boring dad rock from the seventies over and over again?

[SpUd_Jr]

Madison, please explain how, in 2009, rap is still just a trend?

[Lithium]

Come back and talk to me when your prerogative isn't generational discrimination and total ignorance to all logic and patterns in the music industry. As an administrator, your insults towards younger members is hypocritical and totally unfair. You are claiming anyone our age doesn't deserve an opinion. It seems all you've done with your age is accumulated your own self-inflicted blindness. You have no point. I know its fun to feel like you are the older, wiser one here, but the opposite is obviously true. You don't seem to understand that there is no age at which you come to know everything.

Spot on.

[Wando]

I'm not denying anything. I've said some of them are talented, and certainly know which buttons to push to sell records to kids today. I mean, they're laughing all the way to the bank. But if they released a "greatest hits" 20 years from now, nobody would care because their lyrics reflect a trend-of-the-moment, not something that will be relevant 20 years from now. That's all I'm saying.

No, this is what you're saying:

Because no one gives a shit about Rap.

Agreed.

You said it far more eloquently than I would too. :xmasschef2:

Rap is good music, oh please give me a fucking break.

whats funny is, it takes him so long to create Detox ,

when rappers can spit out 10s of records a year, I mean, how hard is it to write a Rap 'song', and add a computer generated drum beat to it, and viola your done...

You read my mind. :xmasssanta:

You're saying that nobody gives about rap. Well, the overhelming majority of responses in this thread denies obviously that. Also your own point of rap being the current thrend among high school students denies that.

Then you say that rap isn't good music and that it isn't hard to write a rap song. But some of the rappers are talented after all?

Also madison, bravo for ignoring atleast half of the arguments made in this thread. By just bypassing them or discrediting them as not worthy opinions.

Edited March 15, 2009 by Wando

[Serg]

With all of these musicians you mentioned - they let the music do the talking - and they didn't try to sell records to naive kids using pointless derogatory lyrics aimed at promoting hate against a particular race or sex.

Kiss merchandised so much, you can't tell me they let the music do the talking.They made Condoms for god's sake.

[stacks on deck]

a lot of rap artists being thrown around in this thread could be called the hinder of rap music; considering them to be truly representative of the entire genre is beyond ridiculous. it's equivalent to saying all rock music sucks because nickelback sucks. for every nickelback there's a radiohead. for every 50 cent there's an mf doom. blanket statements, by definition, are moronic.

in a recent article in gq, mos def was named the best lyricist working today, and "not just in rap, but in any genre, period." countless other journalists and even musicians--including elton john, bob dylan, trent reznor, and paul mccartney--have echoed similar thoughts, praising the genre as the most important form of music alive right now. surely they know what they're talking about. unless you think they're just being trendy. which makes me think you're just being an idiot.

it's not a phase. it's been around for decades and continues to evolve more rapidly than any other genre before it.

best post in this thread got paged.

[Randy Lahey]

You guys put way too much stock in what Madison thinks. I've been at her comments in this thread. She probably thinks KISS are better than Dr Dre and NWA.

[ironicninja]

That's just great. I'm below 30, so of course I'm just following a trend by taking an interest in a genre that is popular right now. To be honest, I never really liked the way you control this forum and I rarely agreed with most of the things you posted, but at least I always thought you were level-headed and unbiased most of the time. Now you just fucked that up. Judging from your reply, you have read very few of my posts in this section. It's not even funny the way you prove your ignorance by accusing someone of following a trend, as well as denying the fact that they are knowledgeable enough to think independently, due to their age.

I'm 30 years old, but I wish I had the maturity, intelligence, and musical curiosity at age 16 that you have shown in this thread.

I think I've discovered and listened to more rap in the last 5 years than I have in the previous 20 years that I've been actively listening to music. It ain't just a high school trend, that's for sure.

[december pain]

Why do all rappers wear glasses indoors? It puzzles me how these people think it is "Cool" to simply speak over a beat-- that they themselves didn't even make! I suggest you all grow up. When you reach your 30s you will see how wrong you are and you'll realize that the whole "Rap"" craze is just a gimmick. Alice Cooper doesn't have a gimmick, he's just a natural showman. Rap, however, is for juveniles. I hope someday you will all realize this.

[stacks on deck]

on second thought, my post was the second best post in this thread.

[Robo Axl]

Led Zeppelin, the Doors and Pink Floyd.

I wish I hadn't wasted my time posting in this thread now.

I mean, who wants to listen to a fresh, interesting form of music that is constantly revealing innovative new forms and sides to it when you can listen to boring dad rock from the seventies over and over again?

Here's the issue: The "dad rock" has artistic merit, the rap doesn't. Setting rhymes to a generic hip-hop beat is much easier than writing a decent rock song.

A single Beatles track, say, "Hey Jude", has more artistic value than the entire genre of rap combined.

[kevdo242]

You're wrong.

[Robo Axl]

You're wrong.

No, I'm right. Rap is a limited genre that is only relevant at all due to it's lyrical content. Rap artists stir controversy with overtly violent lyrics in an attempt to cover up for the lack of substance in the genre.

Edited March 15, 2009 by Robo Axl

[stacks on deck]

a lot of rap artists being thrown around in this thread could be called the hinder of rap music; considering them to be truly representative of the entire genre is beyond ridiculous. it's equivalent to saying all rock music sucks because nickelback sucks. for every nickelback there's a radiohead. for every 50 cent there's an mf doom. blanket statements, by definition, are moronic.

in a recent article in gq, mos def was named the best lyricist working today, and "not just in rap, but in any genre, period." countless other journalists and even musicians--including elton john, bob dylan, trent reznor, and paul mccartney--have echoed similar thoughts, praising the genre as the most important form of music alive right now. surely they know what they're talking about. unless you think they're just being trendy. which makes me think you're just being an idiot.

it's not a phase. it's been around for decades and continues to evolve more rapidly than any other genre before it.

best post in this thread got paged.

this needs to be on every page, apparently.

[Robo Axl]

First of all, you mention lyrical content in that message. There is no denying that there are talented lyricists in the rap genre, perhaps more talented than in rock.

But I'm afraid that beats and rhymes just can't compete with a great melody. People will still be singing Hey Jude, Stairway to Heaven, Sweet Child O' Mine etc in god knows how many years from now. Nobody will remember Stan or Gangsta's Paradise, among the most famous rap tunes today.

[SpUd_Jr]

First of all, you mention lyrical content in that message. There is no denying that there are talented lyricists in the rap genre, perhaps more talented than in rock.

But I'm afraid that beats and rhymes just can't compete with a great melody. People will still be singing Hey Jude, Stairway to Heaven, Sweet Child O' Mine etc in god knows how many years from now. Nobody will remember Stan or Gangsta's Paradise, among the most famous rap tunes today.

But.... people do remember both the songs you mentioned.