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The crushing weight of Estranged


Butters

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Do you believe in gravity? It's just a theory, with a lot of science to support it. If you can have faith in that theory, why can't you have faith in the big bang theory?

It was an interesting jag in the discussion to take it from Estranged to religion I'm starting to think every thread topic is six or less degrees from the topic of religion.

Of course I believe in gravity. I can prove it through the scientific method. I can display it and demonstrate its existence. T

But the big band contradicts the very "laws of science"

So what do you believe Orsys? Will you add to the conversation or just throw stones?

Edited by gnfnr2006
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Of course I believe in gravity. I can prove it through the scientific method. I can display it and demonstrate its existence. T

But the big band contradicts the very "laws of science"

So what do you believe Orsys? Will you add to the conversation or just throw stones?

Not sure what stone I threw. I'm not arguing whether you are right or wrong, because I have no idea whether God created the world, or there was a big bang that created it, or did God create the circumstances where a big bang could occur? I have no idea. And no one else does either. They are just theories and you basically pick which theories you can support and which you cannot. And why can't everyone choose for themselves without being stoned for that belief?

Gravity has not been proven. It is still a theory. You can only support the theory through scientific method. You cannot prove it.

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Of course I believe in gravity. I can prove it through the scientific method. I can display it and demonstrate its existence. T

But the big band contradicts the very "laws of science"

So what do you believe Orsys? Will you add to the conversation or just throw stones?

Not sure what stone I threw. I'm not arguing whether you are right or wrong, because I have no idea whether God created the world, or there was a big bang that created it, or did God create the circumstances where a big bang could occur? I have no idea. And no one else does either. They are just theories and you basically pick which theories you can support and which you cannot. And why can't everyone choose for themselves without being stoned for that belief?

Gravity has not been proven. It is still a theory. You can only support the theory through scientific method. You cannot prove it.

Gravity has been proven, but is still called a theory.

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Gravity has been proven, but is still called a theory.

So unless I've missed a lesson somewhere, it was my understanding that we know that gravity is masses attracting each other, we now know the speed of gravity, but we still don't know what causes it so it can still only be considered a theory.

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Of course I believe in gravity. I can prove it through the scientific method. I can display it and demonstrate its existence. T

But the big band contradicts the very "laws of science"

So what do you believe Orsys? Will you add to the conversation or just throw stones?

Not sure what stone I threw. I'm not arguing whether you are right or wrong, because I have no idea whether God created the world, or there was a big bang that created it, or did God create the circumstances where a big bang could occur? I have no idea. And no one else does either. They are just theories and you basically pick which theories you can support and which you cannot. And why can't everyone choose for themselves without being stoned for that belief?

Gravity has not been proven. It is still a theory. You can only support the theory through scientific method. You cannot prove it.

Gravity has been proven, but is still called a theory.

LOL, well we know why we didnt argue that you are Estranged!

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Who creates god than? If everything needs a creator than who created him?

God is not created. Who said He needs to be created?

And if he does exist than why does it have to be the the Christian god?

What are the other alternatives and what evidence is there?

If you want to know how human life came to be than read a science text book and not that useless book of desert scribblings called the bible.

Really? Why dont you answer the question? Last time I checked, science involves observation and experimentation. Its pretty hard to observe or re-create how human life came to be. So what do YOU believe? Dont be scared, be a MAN and tell is what you believe!

Science's explanation of the creation of the universe is contradictory to the very "laws" of science. The most commonly held scientific opinion is that the universe was created by a big bang. So where did the matter involved in the big bang come from? Where did the energy come from? The scientific laws of thermodynamics say that the big bang could not have happened. The law of probability says it could not have happened. What evidence is there for the big band I would ask? You show me your faith, and the evidence you have for it, and Ill show you mine. You show me what your faith has to offer me and Ill show you what mine has to offer, lets compare!

Btw you are a hypocrite. You said that you would not continue this conversation, yet here you are...

If I am a hypocrite, why is that wrong in your worldview/opinion? I am guessing by your comments that you believe in evolution?

In my worldview which is a biblical worldview, it is wrong to be a hypocrite. But if you believe in evolution, then we are nothing more than chemical accidents and my being a hypocrite is just a chemical reaction in my brain. You wouldnt get mad at baking soda for reacting with peroxide would you? or would you get mad at a lion for killing its prey? Evolution cannot account for any ABSOLUTE morals. If there are no absolute morals, then all morals are just mere opinion and what makes one better than the other? Who decides what opinion is better? Why is murder wrong if my natural instinct is to kill someone and natural selection says that I need to in order to better my chances of survival? Are you saying that you live by the Biblical morals, even though they are not even logical for your worldview?

Actually that's part of the problem. The Romans were known for keeping meticulous records, yet there was no record of an executed man named Jesus or one matching his description (replacing a murderer, claiming to be King of The Jews, etc...)

Yes, the romans were known for keeping good records. Did they keep records of every person they killed? Um, no. No respected scholar of the day doubts the mans existence. Now your are either being intellectually dishonest or irrational, in which case my words are wasted upon you..

But there are plenty of sources outside the bible that tell about His existence.

Assuming you want to discount the facts that the Christian churches were started by people who claimed to have met him and talked with him.

Assuming that you discount the fact that some of the books included in the bible were written and in circulation while people who witnessed the events recorded by several different eye witnesses and still no one claimed that the man never existed...

Here are some other references that you can either investigate yourself and see that if you believe that He never existed, then you are being irrational and acting like an uneducated child. See it's OK for a child to BELIEVE in Santa Claus or monsters under the bed, and even act on those beliefs. But if an adult truly held those beliefs, and acted on them, because there is no rational reason to believe those beliefs, then everyone would question that person mental competence. In order to have a rational belief, you must have rational reasons to JUSTIFY the belief.

1. The Roman historian Tacitus, writing in about 115 A.D., records the events surrounding Emperor Nero in July of A.D. 64. After the fire that destroyed much of Rome, Nero was blamed for being responsible: "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus [Christ], from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilate.."

2.The Jewish historian Josephus, writing for the Roman government in the 70's A.D. records some incidental things regarding Christ and the church. He confirms that John the Baptist died at the hand of Herod (this same incident is recorded in the gospels) as well as the death of, "The brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James. . . he delivered them to be stoned" (Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII, ch. V, p. 20; Book XX, ch. IX, p. 140 ).

There's also no proof of Exodus and many other significant events from the Bible, yet people buy it...

Acually this is another one of your false claims. You continue to make unsubstantiated claims.

Since you wanted to comment, why dont you tell us what evidence you would expect to find, or what evidence would you like to have to believe it? Since we cannot prove it using the scientific method, just like you cannot prove where you were last night with the scientific method, tell me what types of Legal Historical evidence you would like to see?

Here is a link to just SOME of the evidence:

Here

Please, if you are going to make claims, be prepared to back them up.

Edited by gnfnr2006
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Wow.

So many arguments from ignorance it's not even funny. I'm sorry I fed the cupcake.

I'm not going to threadjack this thread anymore...

You are a coward. You made a bunch of claims that you cannot back up and now will go into hiding.

If you have the truth, share it with people.

But it appears that you want to steer people away from the truth by making false claims and refusing to substantiate them. I think the members of this board know all to well from numerous examples in life, including many examples from just this band, that when the truth is revealed, there will always be people who want to hide the truth who will jump up and down, call people names, use claims that get peoples attention and sound logically possible, but when investigated are proven to have no merit, and then the ones who started the false clams in order to lure people from the truth disappear, after the damage has been done.

You sir have picked an excellent screen name.

As for being a cupcake, I replied to the original thread starter. I was then asked buy the thread starter to continue the discussion, which I did. That my friend is not being a cupcake.

Edited by gnfnr2006
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Check PM you fucktard. I actually have a little bit of respect for the OP. I eat shitheads like you for breakfast. I'm an active member of a skeptics group. I spent a bunch of time responding to you.

Your response was "Ya, I love Estranged, but you know what I really love? Jesus Christ."

I don't have the truth and neither do you. All I can do is encourage people to make decisions based on evidence.

Don't post in this thread any more. Respond to me by PM. If you MUST put this into a public forum than lets start a thread under "Anything Goes"

You did exactly what I said you would do, imagine that! You make claims openly in a public forum, then refuse to substantiate them.

I too used to be a "skeptic" and that's why I can so easily label your claims as nothing more than prejudicial conjecture; meaning you substitute arbitrary conjecture for knowledge, meaning that though you call yourself a skeptic you have failed to do any investigation whatsoever and instead you state things as fact that are obvious fantasy because 30 minutes in a library would show this, much less some time on the internet....

Yes, there are things than cannot be proven in regards to....almost every aspect of life. But the points you brought up, and then claim to be in a skeptic group, really show the amount of research/education that you have.

Anyone who has done even the slightest been of investigation knows the clams you made are ridiculous and unfounded. Even as a believer I can name several things that I cannot answer about my faith, and many more that I can answer. Someone who has investigated a subject should at least know the well knows points on both sides of the argument. But you wont even identify your faith to us whether it be naturalism, empiricism, relativism, post-modernism, darwinian evolution, etc.

It's sad that even after I point out that you are one to make claims that you cannot substantiate, you continue to do it by saying you eat people like me for breakfast, yet you have failed to do anything other than run your mouth and bump your gums...

Im not hear to win an argument. I came here to give me opinion on the sone Estranged and why I am a much more joyous person than when I first started listening to it, and why I no longer relate to, though I remember when I did. Anyone who knows the truth, based upon putting all the pieces of the puzzle together, wants to share that truth. You have no truth to share, and instead want to steer people away from the truth, because misery loves company.

The truth can stand on it's own, and that's why I have no problem sharing it with others. The truth is never arbitrary, contradictory, relative, inconsistent or anything else that your claims, whatever they may be, ARE.

Edited by gnfnr2006
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