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#3691
The Linguini Occurrence

The Linguini Occurrence

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Perfect!


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#3692
classicrawker

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I was not baiting you and I guess you did not understand my reasoning..............I think Bronson is 3-4th starter quality but the Yankees do not need a 3-4th starter right now mate  so on the Yankees he would be the 4th or 5th starter at this point.....If everyone on their staff pitches up to their potential Bronson would be the 5th starter as I he is not better than Sabbathia, Kuroda, Tanaka or Nova IMHO.....The Yankees have much bigger needs to address at this point so signing Bronson would have been a luxury. I would much rather see them invest that money in their iffy infield right now............that was my only point............ ;)

 

 

Well mate you certainly could be right in that CC/Kuroda/Nova may pitch as well as they have in the past and Tanaka may live up to his billing ... but IMO the odds are greatly against all of that happening because ... CC is coming off the worst year of his career with a lot of innings piled up on his arm ... and Kuroda at Age 39 will likely tire as he did last year when he had an approx 5.40 ERA the last two months of the season ... and Tanaka will need to adapt on and off the field ... but I do concur Bronson could be the 4th starter and also that the infield is iffy ... therefore overall I am in agreement with your point ... so now maybe we can discuss whether the comparisons between McCann and Munson are accurate?

 

 The Red Sox went through the same question marks with their rotation last year and it turned out o.k. so i don't think the odds are against the Yankees pitchers having decent years mate but then again being a Yankee hater you of course will try to look for the negatives even if the data is not there to support your claim......My point still stands that Arroyo would be a luxury for the Yankees in an area where they have some strength and the money is better spent elsewhere......

 

If you want to pick areas where they could fail you should have started with the infield as they have holes at 2nd and 3rd base and 40 year old SS coming off a major foot injury and a 1st basement who had season ending wrist surgery so the infield is one big ? Same with the Pen with Mariano retiring.............

 

Regarding McCann it was a great pickup for the Bronx Bombers...very good hitting catcher who can actually catch, is a great clubhouse guy  and brings some attitude to the team..best pickup of the off season for them IMHO........

 

And lets face it the Red Sox were picked for last in the division, overachieved last year and caught lightening in a bottle so I would say the odds are against them repeating as they made no great changes to improve the team this winter............. ;)


Edited by classicrawker, 09 February 2014 - 08:50 AM.

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#3693
The Linguini Occurrence

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 The Red Sox went through the same question marks with their rotation last year and it turned out o.k. so i don't think the odds are against the Yankees pitchers having decent years mate but then again being a Yankee hater you of course will try to look for the negatives even if the data is not there to support your claim......My point still stands that Arroyo would be a luxury for the Yankees in an area where they have some strength and the money is better spent elsewhere......

 

If you want to pick areas where they could fail you should have started with the infield as they have holes at 2nd and 3rd base and 40 year old SS coming off a major foot injury and a 1st basement who had season ending wrist surgery so the infield is one big ? Same with the Pen with Mariano retiring.............

 

Regarding McCann it was a great pickup for the Bronx Bombers...very good hitting catcher who can actually catch, is a great clubhouse guy  and brings some attitude to the team..best pickup of the off season for them IMHO........

 

 

Did you overlook the part in my last post where I said I agreed with you?  Seems like you did!  :lol:

 

It is very, very rare for 4 starting pitchers on the same team to have above-average years at the same time.  I gave you specific reasons why I think the odds are against CC/Kuroda/Tanaka all having above-average seasons simultaneously, what about those reasons do you disagree with?  Better yet, what reasons do you have to think they will all perform better than Bronson?  The data to support my reasons is most definitely there mate.  CC's worst year, Kuroda's age and 2nd-half debacle last year, Asian players sometimes not being able to adjust to life in the majors ... facts are facts ...

 

Last year's Red Sox rotation is not a good comparison mate, most people believed the rotation would be a strength because of healed injuries and the change in manager/coaches.  Lester's problems in 2012 was obviously due to the turmoil and incompetence of Valentine and his coaching staff, everybody knew Farrell would straighten him out.  Lackey was coming back from TJ surgery, he was expected to perform as he did when he was healthy before the injury.  Dempster pretty much sucked, Clay missed half of the season, and Dooby had nearly identical numbers to 2012.

 

You know I don't hate the Yankees mate, they are a divisional rival just like 3 other teams.  Stating facts is not "looking for negatives"! :P  If you read all the national baseball writers and watched the national baseball programs and MLB Network and whatnot, you'd have seen and heard they were all unanimous in their belief that the major problem with the Yankees was their pitching and that everybody insisted the Yankees NEEDED Tanaka more than any other team needed him for that reason.  I'm not making this stuff up, it's simply a fact.  Sure Tanaka could become an ace, but can one pitcher turn what was perceived to be a below-average rotation into a powerhouse that doesn't need a Bronson Arroyo?  Don't think so mate!  BTW - here's another fact, Bronson's WHIP last year was better than every Yankee starting pitcher ... and he was pitching half his games in a hitter's park no less! :P

 

I think Robertson will do well in the closer role, and yes I already agreed about your infield ... but who cares where the offense comes, the Yankees will score a ton of runs this year even with a crappy middle and left side of the infield.  Tex-McCann-Ellsbury-Gardner-Beltran-Soriano ... plenty of offense there, mate ...


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#3694
classicrawker

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 The Red Sox went through the same question marks with their rotation last year and it turned out o.k. so i don't think the odds are against the Yankees pitchers having decent years mate but then again being a Yankee hater you of course will try to look for the negatives even if the data is not there to support your claim......My point still stands that Arroyo would be a luxury for the Yankees in an area where they have some strength and the money is better spent elsewhere......

 

If you want to pick areas where they could fail you should have started with the infield as they have holes at 2nd and 3rd base and 40 year old SS coming off a major foot injury and a 1st basement who had season ending wrist surgery so the infield is one big ? Same with the Pen with Mariano retiring.............

 

Regarding McCann it was a great pickup for the Bronx Bombers...very good hitting catcher who can actually catch, is a great clubhouse guy  and brings some attitude to the team..best pickup of the off season for them IMHO........

 

 

Did you overlook the part in my last post where I said I agreed with you?  Seems like you did!  :lol:

 

It is very, very rare for 4 starting pitchers on the same team to have above-average years at the same time.  I gave you specific reasons why I think the odds are against CC/Kuroda/Tanaka all having above-average seasons simultaneously, what about those reasons do you disagree with?  Better yet, what reasons do you have to think they will all perform better than Bronson?  The data to support my reasons is most definitely there mate.  CC's worst year, Kuroda's age and 2nd-half debacle last year, Asian players sometimes not being able to adjust to life in the majors ... facts are facts ...

 

Last year's Red Sox rotation is not a good comparison mate, most people believed the rotation would be a strength because of healed injuries and the change in manager/coaches.  Lester's problems in 2012 was obviously due to the turmoil and incompetence of Valentine and his coaching staff, everybody knew Farrell would straighten him out.  Lackey was coming back from TJ surgery, he was expected to perform as he did when he was healthy before the injury.  Dempster pretty much sucked, Clay missed half of the season, and Dooby had nearly identical numbers to 2012.

 

You know I don't hate the Yankees mate, they are a divisional rival just like 3 other teams.  Stating facts is not "looking for negatives"! :P  If you read all the national baseball writers and watched the national baseball programs and MLB Network and whatnot, you'd have seen and heard they were all unanimous in their belief that the major problem with the Yankees was their pitching and that everybody insisted the Yankees NEEDED Tanaka more than any other team needed him for that reason.  I'm not making this stuff up, it's simply a fact.  Sure Tanaka could become an ace, but can one pitcher turn what was perceived to be a below-average rotation into a powerhouse that doesn't need a Bronson Arroyo?  Don't think so mate!  BTW - here's another fact, Bronson's WHIP last year was better than every Yankee starting pitcher ... and he was pitching half his games in a hitter's park no less! :P

 

I think Robertson will do well in the closer role, and yes I already agreed about your infield ... but who cares where the offense comes, the Yankees will score a ton of runs this year even with a crappy middle and left side of the infield.  Tex-McCann-Ellsbury-Gardner-Beltran-Soriano ... plenty of offense there, mate ...

 

Who said anything about the Yankee pitchers having above average years? all they need to do is have   average years, based on their career averages, and the Yankees will have one of the better staffs in the league.........

 

See again you are projecting on the Yankee pitchers while making excuses for the Sox pitchers.............Before last season started nobody, including you,  knew why Lester struggled and you had no idea how Lackey would pitch coming off of TJ surgery just as we have no idea how Sabbathia and Kuroda will pitch this year  based on the small sampling of last year...based on their history chances are good it might be better than last year.............You say you assumed Lester would turn it around and Lackey would pitch up to his career form? well I am projecting the same for Sabbathia and Kuroda...see how that works?............. :lol:

 

And you ignore the fact that Arroyo would have been coming to the AL and AL East no less so there is a good chance his stats would have been  worse this year if he came to the Yankees. He gave up 32 HR's last year and 46 (yikes!) in 2011 which does not translate well in Yankee Stadium.....

 

If you are basing your assumption that Sabbathia will not turn it around then you could have said the same thing for Arroyo in 2011 when he had an ERA over 5 and gave up 46 HR's! and yet he bounced back and had a decent year in 2012 and last year although the increase in HR's is worrysome.

 

Bronson is a quality inning eater who based on his history will win a few more games then he losses but he is not an ace stopper type pitcher who would not have made a major difference to the Yankees this coming season and would have been their 4th starter at best. That is a lot of money to pay a 4th starter when the team has bigger holes to fill.....I will tke my chances with what we have.......mate......

 

Sabbathia is another  year removed from elbow surgery and has lost a ton of weight this winter working out with a personal trainer so it is not hard to speculate he will have a better year this year........

 

As I said the so called "experts" had the Sox finishing last in the AL East last year so I would take what they predict with a  grain of salt.......


Edited by classicrawker, 09 February 2014 - 10:12 AM.

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#3695
The Linguini Occurrence

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See again you are projecting on the Yankee pitchers while making excuses for the Sox pitchers.............Before last season started nobody, including you,  knew why Lester struggled and you had no idea how Lackey would pitch coming off of TJ surgery

 
Before I give a full-on response (not tonight) take a look at what I had to say last March:  http://www.mygnrforu...-month/page-101
 
"I think the pen is very solid and the starting rotation will be above average"
"Bailey, Buchholz, Hanrahan, Lackey, Lester, Miller, Uehara, Middlebrooks, Pedroia, Ellsbury - I'm completely confident they'll have good years"
"Ortiz, Napoli, Drew, Morales, Doubront - Big question marks primarily about their health, but the potential for a good season is there."
 
 
So I was dead on about Buchholz, Lackey, Lester, Miller, Uehara ...
 
Yeah I was wrong about Victorino and Gomes to a certain extent, and as you know I hated Papi's contract extension, but I was confident as hell in the pitching. :P
 
As far as Lester and Lackey, did you forget Farrell was the longtime pitching coach prior to 2011 when Lester was hugely successful?  Did you not hear all the people who, based on reports of Lackey's rehab, were convinced he would be a top candidate for Comeback Player of the Year?
 
C'mon mate, questioning me about my Red Sox knowledge is like questioning the Pope about his knowledge of Christianity!  ;)
 
http://nesn.com/2012...needed-answers/
 
"Now, entering his eighth season and looking to regain his form as the Red Sox’ ace, Lester is welcoming one of his former influences back — and counting on him to help turn things around. Farrell was named Boston’s new manager Sunday, and Lester already knows what that means for him. “I think it’s a good thing,” Lester said, according to ESPNBoston.com. “He helped mold me into the pitcher I am, the player I am. My work ethic, the work I do between starts, he really helped mold all of that.” Lester said part of what he is looking forward to is the familiarity that Farrell, who was a big part of the Boston staff from 2007 to 2011, brings to the manager role."

 

http://www.overthemo...ell-red-sox-ace

 

"John Farrell has had a "tremendous impact" on the Red Sox already, simply by getting Lester (and Clay Buchholz) back to where they were mechanically when he was last in town, rather than in their 2011 and 2012 forms, where the lessons of Farrell slowly vanished from their toolbox. That's huge news for the Red Sox (even if pitching coach Juan Nieves was mostly -- and undeservedly -- left out of Thorburn's kudos), considering the 2010 campaigns of both -- the last year Farrell was pitching coach -- were the greatest seasons for both hurlers. Remember, from 2008 through 2011, Lester was one of six starters to throw at least 800 innings and post an ERA+ of 135 or better, along with Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Tim Lincecum, CC Sabathia, and Felix Hernandez. Getting back that guy -- or something even approximating him -- by repairing broken mechanics is more significant than any transaction the Red Sox could have made this past off-season."


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#3696
classicrawker

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See again you are projecting on the Yankee pitchers while making excuses for the Sox pitchers.............Before last season started nobody, including you,  knew why Lester struggled and you had no idea how Lackey would pitch coming off of TJ surgery

 
Before I give a full-on response (not tonight) take a look at what I had to say last March:  http://www.mygnrforu...-month/page-101
 
"I think the pen is very solid and the starting rotation will be above average"
"Bailey, Buchholz, Hanrahan, Lackey, Lester, Miller, Uehara, Middlebrooks, Pedroia, Ellsbury - I'm completely confident they'll have good years"
"Ortiz, Napoli, Drew, Morales, Doubront - Big question marks primarily about their health, but the potential for a good season is there."
 
 
So I was dead on about Buchholz, Lackey, Lester, Miller, Uehara ...
 
Yeah I was wrong about Victorino and Gomes to a certain extent, and as you know I hated Papi's contract extension, but I was confident as hell in the pitching. :P
 
As far as Lester and Lackey, did you forget Farrell was the longtime pitching coach prior to 2011 when Lester was hugely successful?  Did you not hear all the people who, based on reports of Lackey's rehab, were convinced he would be a top candidate for Comeback Player of the Year?
 
C'mon mate, questioning me about my Red Sox knowledge is like questioning the Pope about his knowledge of Christianity!  ;)
 
http://nesn.com/2012...needed-answers/
 
"Now, entering his eighth season and looking to regain his form as the Red Sox’ ace, Lester is welcoming one of his former influences back — and counting on him to help turn things around. Farrell was named Boston’s new manager Sunday, and Lester already knows what that means for him. “I think it’s a good thing,” Lester said, according to ESPNBoston.com. “He helped mold me into the pitcher I am, the player I am. My work ethic, the work I do between starts, he really helped mold all of that.” Lester said part of what he is looking forward to is the familiarity that Farrell, who was a big part of the Boston staff from 2007 to 2011, brings to the manager role."

 

http://www.overthemo...ell-red-sox-ace

 

"John Farrell has had a "tremendous impact" on the Red Sox already, simply by getting Lester (and Clay Buchholz) back to where they were mechanically when he was last in town, rather than in their 2011 and 2012 forms, where the lessons of Farrell slowly vanished from their toolbox. That's huge news for the Red Sox (even if pitching coach Juan Nieves was mostly -- and undeservedly -- left out of Thorburn's kudos), considering the 2010 campaigns of both -- the last year Farrell was pitching coach -- were the greatest seasons for both hurlers. Remember, from 2008 through 2011, Lester was one of six starters to throw at least 800 innings and post an ERA+ of 135 or better, along with Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Tim Lincecum, CC Sabathia, and Felix Hernandez. Getting back that guy -- or something even approximating him -- by repairing broken mechanics is more significant than any transaction the Red Sox could have made this past off-season."

 

So you predicted they would have good seasons which actually came true  but it was just that a prediction  just as I predict Sabbathia, Kuroda will pitch better than last year while Tanaka will be no worse than decent and Nova will continue to build on last year this coming season.............while you see gloom and doom for the Yankee staff................we shall see who is correct this time............. ;)


Edited by classicrawker, 09 February 2014 - 08:08 PM.

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#3697
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So you predicted they would have good seasons which actually came true  but it was just that a prediction  just as I predict Sabbathia, Kuroda will pitch better than last year while Tanaka will be no worse than decent and Nova will continue to build on last year this coming season.............while you see gloom and doom for the Yankee staff................we shall see who is correct this time............. ;)

 

 

No that's not true, and it's not the subject we've been discussing!  This all started when you said Arroyo would be the 5th best starter on the Yankees, and I disagreed by saying he will be better than at least one of the Yank's Top Four (Sabathia, Tanaka, Kuroda, Nova) ... so how about we check back at the end of the season and compare Bronson's stats with those 4 Yankees ... we can look at ERA+ to eliminate the DH & Park factors if you want ... 


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#3698
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And exactly how will you compare Arroyo pitching for Arizona as compared to pitching in Yankee Stadium in the AL East? little bit tougher pitching for the Yankees I think......but sure lets do era+ and see who is right........


Edited by classicrawker, 09 February 2014 - 09:47 PM.

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#3699
The Linguini Occurrence

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And exactly how will you compare Arroyo pitching for Arizona as compared to pitching in Yankee Stadium in the AL East?

 

Have you completely forgotten Bronson pitched in the AL East for 3 years?

 

His career ERA pitching in the NL is 4.19 ... guess what it is during those 3 years with the Red Sox?  4.19

 

And his WHIP during those 3 Red Sox years (1.243) is much better than his career NL whip (1.302)


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#3700
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He also is much older now and has not pitched in the AL in 7 years...and oh yeah based on his stats he seems to be a fly ball pitcher who gives up a lot of HR's as in 46/26/32 in the past 3 years...not a good attribute to have pitching in Yankee Stadium and the AL East in particular

 

In their worst years Kuroda gave up 25 and Sabbathia 28 which was last year his worst in the majors............

 

Do you really think his numbers would not be higher coming back to the AL East and pitching in Yankee Stadium now? really?


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#3701
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FWIW, 2011 is more of an anomaly with Arroyo pitching the year with mono and not wanting to go on the DL, even though he probably should have--he was clearly run down the whole season. Great American Ballpark has also ranked higher than Yankee Stadium on home run factor each of the past three years (and 6 of the 8 years that Arroyo was with the Reds). The AL East factor would probably make that a wash, so wouldn't expect his home runs allowed rate to go up if he had gone there. Also, with the type of pitcher he is, I don't see age being much of a factor for him. He never relied on velocity--always on deception and keeps himself in tremendous shape. Don't know where I'd rank him in the Yankees rotation. Would probably be fifth in terms of peak production if all five would pitch up to their potential, but he arguably could be third or fourth given his consistency compared to a couple of the others. Agree with the one post that he probably would've been a luxury at this point if the Yankees had tried for him, given how solid their rotation appears at this point. Can never have enough pitching, but their front office is probably looking to fill some other holes with Tanaka signed.

Edited by ronaldo9, 10 February 2014 - 12:21 PM.

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#3702
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FWIW, 2011 is more of an anomaly with Arroyo pitching the year with mono and not wanting to go on the DL, even though he probably should have--he was clearly run down the whole season. Great American Ballpark has also ranked higher than Yankee Stadium on home run factor each of the past three years (and 6 of the 8 years that Arroyo was with the Reds). The AL East factor would probably make that a wash, so wouldn't expect his home runs allowed rate to go up if he had gone there. Also, with the type of pitcher he is, I don't see age being much of a factor for him. He never relied on velocity--always on deception and keeps himself in tremendous shape. Don't know where I'd rank him in the Yankees rotation. Would probably be fifth in terms of peak production if all five would pitch up to their potential, but he arguably could be third or fourth given his consistency compared to a couple of the others. Agree with the one post that he probably would've been a luxury at this point if the Yankees had tried for him, given how solid their rotation appears at this point. Can never have enough pitching, but their front office is probably looking to fill some other holes with Tanaka signed.

I absolutely agree 2011 most likely an anomaly just as I would argue the same can be said for Sabbathia as he was coming off elbow surgery and could not work out at all last off season.  He has  worked very hard this offseason, changed his diet, and will be in the best shape of his career so it is not so unbelievable he will rebound this year............. Or with Kuroda's second half of the season where he was terrible after having an Allstar worthy first half....I think it is too early to write off those two pitchers based on such a short amount of data showing serious decline in their skills.

 

I was never questioning whether Arroyo was a quality pitcher only that if the other Yankee pitchers have typical seasons he would be their 4th starter at best and they have bigger issues to fix then adding another 10 million + pitcher to be the 4-5th starter. While Hal Steinbrenner allowed Cashman to exceed the mythical $89 million payroll ceiling he is not going to just blindly sign expensive players in areas where they actually may have a strength.........  his father  would have acted impulsively and most likely signed Arroyo and Garza as well but Hal is still watching the bottom line and doubt he will allow Cashman to add further payroll unless they can grab a player like Chase Headley in a trade for a reasonable package of prospects...............


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#3703
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He also is much older now and has not pitched in the AL in 7 years...and oh yeah based on his stats he seems to be a fly ball pitcher who gives up a lot of HR's as in 46/26/32 in the past 3 years...not a good attribute to have pitching in Yankee Stadium and the AL East in particular

 

In their worst years Kuroda gave up 25 and Sabbathia 28 which was last year his worst in the majors............

 

Do you really think his numbers would not be higher coming back to the AL East and pitching in Yankee Stadium now? really?

 

He's not a power pitcher, age isn't as big a factor for him.

 

Those homeruns the past 3 years had a lot to do with GABP being the 2nd-best park in MLB to hit homers ...  Yankee Stadium was ranked 9th BTW.

 

Do I think his numbers wouldn't be higher in the AL East than the 4.19 career ERA he has in both leagues?  Yeah, I do.  But we'll probably never find out, so ERA+ is basically all we got. :shrugs:


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#3704
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I absolutely agree 2011 most likely an anomaly just as I would argue the same can be said for Sabbathia as he was coming off elbow surgery and could not work out at all last off season.  He has  worked very hard this offseason, changed his diet, and will be in the best shape of his career so it is not so unbelievable he will rebound this year.

 

I know you're Mr. Optimist when it comes to the Yankees, but do you think Sabathia's weight loss contributed to his poor performance?  Many baseball folks think it may have.


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#3705
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No I think the weight theory is overrated IMHO... it may have had an effect as he lost  fair amount and had to get used to pitching with a new body but I think it was more a matter of him not being able to do any conditioning or throwing last winter due to his elbow surgery. I look at last year as more of a rehab season under fire...........He is now a year emoved from surgery, is working out like a demon this winter and is on a throwing program so I have all the faith in the world he will be better than last year...will he be the C.C of old? possibly not but I expect him to rebound much as Bronson did in 2012 when he was healthy again..........and Yes I am an optimist about their starting pitching but not so much about their infield or bullpen which I think could come back to bite them in the ass unless they make some moves before the season. If they get a capable 3rd baseman in the Scott Brosius mold, i.e steady but not a superstar, and give Nunez a shot at 2nd base where his throwing is not as big an issue as playing SS or 3rd base I would feel a whole lot better..........Also wish they had signed Balfour or Rodney as insurance and to pitch the 8th inning but we will see if Cashman has some moves left up his sleeve....


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