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Why did Duff turn down Snakepit?


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#31
izzydoezit

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The 1st snakepit includes some of Slash's best guitar work ever. Especially the 1st one sounds exactly like a stripped down UYI-era Guns N' Roses sans Axl's vocals. Had this been a GNR record it'd probably outsell the previous albums. But you can't really safely predict that stuff.

#32
GnR Chris

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Duff in his book claims he and Axl turned down the Snakepit material because it sounded like "Southern Rock"...But I've never understood that complaint. There are maybe one or two songs on there which are in a Southern inspired vein and the rest is pretty straight forward bluesy Rock N' Roll, very close to the GN'R sound. I'll never understand why Duff didn't like the Snakepit material, especially since he co-wrote a song on it....Had he not vetoed it, it might've pushed Axl to work on the stuff...As it was, Axl did eventually decide he wanted to work on it but by then it was too late.

It was and is basically GN'R's next album. It's the album GN'R would've made if Axl had been fired. I mean it has Slash, Gilby, Matt, Dizzy on it--four out of six members. It has a song co-written by Duff. It has contributions from Teddy Zigzag, who was basically an unofficial member of GN'R, and it was produced by Mike Clink (GN'R's producer) and mixed by Thompson & Barbiero (the same guys who mixed AFD; The UYIs and TSI were mixed by Bill Price), and it's mastered by George Marino, who mastered the original GN'R albums. IMO, it's basically a GN'R record in all but name--The inverse of Chinese Democracy.


I don't think you can rightfully consider it a Guns N' Roses record. It was more of a Slash project the way his last two records have been, you know? Slash had Duff and Izzy on SLASH too. Gilby was just a replacement. Did he have real writing chops? I don't know. Same with Matt and Dizzy. Those are peripheral characters as far as I'm concerned. The magic of Gn'R were when they all dug in together. I know on Illusions they'd all submit their songs and go back and forth and it wasn't the same necessarily with Snakepit. I mean, Axl and Duff rejected it for "Guns N' Roses." Had they not rejected it, perhaps it would have sounded markedly different with more Duff/Axl input.

What I'm curious about is, I remember reading they eventually brought Izzy back in around this time period to help with the writing process or to try to kickstart something, and there were supposedly a bunch of demos from Izzy/Duff at the time. I wonder what happened with them.

Anyway, some of that Snakepit stuff would have been killer with Axl on vocals and Duff's bass. I say the same shit today. "One Last Thrill" on Slash's latest is a great song but the vocals just aren't right. I think Axl would KILL that song (in a good way).

#33
GnR Chris

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Even if Axl wanted to work on the material I don't think Slash would have let him do what he wanted. Slash was not happy with Axl's overdubs on the UYI material and, to this day, feels that the demos were better then the finished product.....And while Axl might be exaggerating when he said Slash told him to "shut up and sing" I could see them battling over changes to the Snakepit material.....Even Marc made a cryptic comment in a post that he felt Slash should have allowed Axl to work on the Snakepit material.........


From what I've read, it appears to me there was a lot of animosity back then. Axl was taking too long with new material. Slash worked on his own with band members, brought it to Axl, and it was rejected. That had to piss him off. There seems to have been a power struggle. So I agree with what you're saying, based on accounts I've read. Slash wanted it THIS way, Axl wanted it THAT way. Duff was kinda caught in the middle.

I can see why Duff would have rejected it though. What made Gn'R brilliant is the blending of the styles.

#34
jmapelian

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Even if Axl wanted to work on the material I don't think Slash would have let him do what he wanted. Slash was not happy with Axl's overdubs on the UYI material and, to this day, feels that the demos were better then the finished product.....And while Axl might be exaggerating when he said Slash told him to "shut up and sing" I could see them battling over changes to the Snakepit material.....Even Marc made a cryptic comment in a post that he felt Slash should have allowed Axl to work on the Snakepit material.........


From what I've read, it appears to me there was a lot of animosity back then. Axl was taking too long with new material. Slash worked on his own with band members, brought it to Axl, and it was rejected. That had to piss him off. There seems to have been a power struggle. So I agree with what you're saying, based on accounts I've read. Slash wanted it THIS way, Axl wanted it THAT way. Duff was kinda caught in the middle.

I can see why Duff would have rejected it though. What made Gn'R brilliant is the blending of the styles.


the problem with axl rejecting it out of hand and what we don't know is - what did axl have at the time that was better? all's we know is what became snakepit was rejected but did axl have anything better to counter with or was it just an idea in his head.............axl's never answered that

#35
The Real McCoy

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Why is it when Axl wants to take things in another direction, he's selfish and crazy...but Slash strolls in with an album of songs he wrote himself and gets his panties in a knot when the rest of the band doesn't fall all over themselves to make Slash's album the next GNR album.



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#36
The Real McCoy

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Why is it when Axl wants to take things in another direction, he's selfish and crazy...but Slash strolls in with an album of songs he wrote himself and gets his panties in a knot when the rest of the band doesn't fall all over themselves to make Slash's album the next GNR album.



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#37
Kill Devil Hill

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Even if Axl wanted to work on the material I don't think Slash would have let him do what he wanted. Slash was not happy with Axl's overdubs on the UYI material and, to this day, feels that the demos were better then the finished product.....And while Axl might be exaggerating when he said Slash told him to "shut up and sing" I could see them battling over changes to the Snakepit material.....Even Marc made a cryptic comment in a post that he felt Slash should have allowed Axl to work on the Snakepit material.........


From what I've read, it appears to me there was a lot of animosity back then. Axl was taking too long with new material. Slash worked on his own with band members, brought it to Axl, and it was rejected. That had to piss him off. There seems to have been a power struggle. So I agree with what you're saying, based on accounts I've read. Slash wanted it THIS way, Axl wanted it THAT way. Duff was kinda caught in the middle.

I can see why Duff would have rejected it though. What made Gn'R brilliant is the blending of the styles.


the problem with axl rejecting it out of hand and what we don't know is - what did axl have at the time that was better? all's we know is what became snakepit was rejected but did axl have anything better to counter with or was it just an idea in his head.............axl's never answered that


Well, in all fairness, when has GN'R ever been about settling on mediocre? Maybe there was nothing else but mediocre material, and Axl wanted to wait until they'd found the perfect direction to go in, y'know? And waiting and trying and getting rejected and waiting some more wore on Slash.

In regards to Slash, I read a desperate fan's message about, what if one of us were to die and looking back I had the possibility of a reunion now, blah blah blah. And my thoughts are, "Yeah, and while you're at the show your baby accidentally kicks a candle and burns your house down, killing himself and the rest of your family."


#38
The Real McCoy

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Even if Axl wanted to work on the material I don't think Slash would have let him do what he wanted. Slash was not happy with Axl's overdubs on the UYI material and, to this day, feels that the demos were better then the finished product.....And while Axl might be exaggerating when he said Slash told him to "shut up and sing" I could see them battling over changes to the Snakepit material.....Even Marc made a cryptic comment in a post that he felt Slash should have allowed Axl to work on the Snakepit material.........


From what I've read, it appears to me there was a lot of animosity back then. Axl was taking too long with new material. Slash worked on his own with band members, brought it to Axl, and it was rejected. That had to piss him off. There seems to have been a power struggle. So I agree with what you're saying, based on accounts I've read. Slash wanted it THIS way, Axl wanted it THAT way. Duff was kinda caught in the middle.

I can see why Duff would have rejected it though. What made Gn'R brilliant is the blending of the styles.


the problem with axl rejecting it out of hand and what we don't know is - what did axl have at the time that was better? all's we know is what became snakepit was rejected but did axl have anything better to counter with or was it just an idea in his head.............axl's never answered that


"This I Love" is from that time period. That's a pretty damn good starting point.

"I'm the original rock n' roll cliche, Gypsy, pirate, cowboy, You wouldn't last a minute in my boots, 'Cos baby, I'm the Real McCoy" - Hanoi Rocks


#39
arnold layne

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duffs too cool for skool

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#40
Kill Devil Hill

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duffs too cool for skool


Actually, he just graduated from high school on two days ago! :)

In regards to Slash, I read a desperate fan's message about, what if one of us were to die and looking back I had the possibility of a reunion now, blah blah blah. And my thoughts are, "Yeah, and while you're at the show your baby accidentally kicks a candle and burns your house down, killing himself and the rest of your family."


#41
arnold layne

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    hooray for tolerance!.

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Good for him. :)

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#42
Lethalis

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There is nothing wrong with southern rock.

Actually, I think it would suit Axl really well :D

#43
dario27

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Even if Axl wanted to work on the material I don't think Slash would have let him do what he wanted. Slash was not happy with Axl's overdubs on the UYI material and, to this day, feels that the demos were better then the finished product.....And while Axl might be exaggerating when he said Slash told him to "shut up and sing" I could see them battling over changes to the Snakepit material.....Even Marc made a cryptic comment in a post that he felt Slash should have allowed Axl to work on the Snakepit material.........


From what I've read, it appears to me there was a lot of animosity back then. Axl was taking too long with new material. Slash worked on his own with band members, brought it to Axl, and it was rejected. That had to piss him off. There seems to have been a power struggle. So I agree with what you're saying, based on accounts I've read. Slash wanted it THIS way, Axl wanted it THAT way. Duff was kinda caught in the middle.

I can see why Duff would have rejected it though. What made Gn'R brilliant is the blending of the styles.


i agree on a few points.

a lot of question would've been answered if Duff would've written something about it on the book, however i do believe he "rejected" the material, because he was just trying to stick to GUNS and keep the band going.
he probably tought by choosing Slash's side Axl would've been mad and kept his hybernation mode for a few more years (we now know he did regardless of what was going on at the time) but Duff was probably attempting to get the thing going, get Axl's attention and coninue the creative effort of the band.
a wasted effort. and it's pretty clear Duff supported the material, he worked with Slash on it and recorded it.

#44
classicrawker

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Even if Axl wanted to work on the material I don't think Slash would have let him do what he wanted. Slash was not happy with Axl's overdubs on the UYI material and, to this day, feels that the demos were better then the finished product.....And while Axl might be exaggerating when he said Slash told him to "shut up and sing" I could see them battling over changes to the Snakepit material.....Even Marc made a cryptic comment in a post that he felt Slash should have allowed Axl to work on the Snakepit material.........


From what I've read, it appears to me there was a lot of animosity back then. Axl was taking too long with new material. Slash worked on his own with band members, brought it to Axl, and it was rejected. That had to piss him off. There seems to have been a power struggle. So I agree with what you're saying, based on accounts I've read. Slash wanted it THIS way, Axl wanted it THAT way. Duff was kinda caught in the middle.

I can see why Duff would have rejected it though. What made Gn'R brilliant is the blending of the styles.


i agree on a few points.

a lot of question would've been answered if Duff would've written something about it on the book, however i do believe he "rejected" the material, because he was just trying to stick to GUNS and keep the band going.
he probably tought by choosing Slash's side Axl would've been mad and kept his hybernation mode for a few more years (we now know he did regardless of what was going on at the time) but Duff was probably attempting to get the thing going, get Axl's attention and coninue the creative effort of the band.
a wasted effort. and it's pretty clear Duff supported the material, he worked with Slash on it and recorded it.



Fair points mate but did Duff really work with Slash on the material? I don't remember reading he was involved as I thought it was Slash, Gilby and Matt?

Edited by classicrawker, 21 June 2012 - 12:11 PM.

IT IS A GREAT TIME TO BE A SLASH FAN!

#45
GnR Chris

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Even if Axl wanted to work on the material I don't think Slash would have let him do what he wanted. Slash was not happy with Axl's overdubs on the UYI material and, to this day, feels that the demos were better then the finished product.....And while Axl might be exaggerating when he said Slash told him to "shut up and sing" I could see them battling over changes to the Snakepit material.....Even Marc made a cryptic comment in a post that he felt Slash should have allowed Axl to work on the Snakepit material.........


From what I've read, it appears to me there was a lot of animosity back then. Axl was taking too long with new material. Slash worked on his own with band members, brought it to Axl, and it was rejected. That had to piss him off. There seems to have been a power struggle. So I agree with what you're saying, based on accounts I've read. Slash wanted it THIS way, Axl wanted it THAT way. Duff was kinda caught in the middle.

I can see why Duff would have rejected it though. What made Gn'R brilliant is the blending of the styles.


i agree on a few points.

a lot of question would've been answered if Duff would've written something about it on the book, however i do believe he "rejected" the material, because he was just trying to stick to GUNS and keep the band going.
he probably tought by choosing Slash's side Axl would've been mad and kept his hybernation mode for a few more years (we now know he did regardless of what was going on at the time) but Duff was probably attempting to get the thing going, get Axl's attention and coninue the creative effort of the band.
a wasted effort. and it's pretty clear Duff supported the material, he worked with Slash on it and recorded it.


Another thing, and again just speculation on my part based on what I've read, but Axl probably felt betrayed that Slash took this material and released it under his own brand and then went to tour with it. If I recall, no one else from Guns toured that material for fear it would splinter the band even more.

Axl probably felt that though he dismissed the material at the time, it still should have been kept as demos for GUNS N' ROSES. If I'm not mistaken, Snakepit was the first solo venture for anyone still in the actual band at the time, right?

I think had Axl moved quicker to try to write some material and not been so dismissive and reclusive, more would have likely gotten done. I can see it from both perspectives, but to defend Slash, Axl reportedly wasn't even showing up for rehearsals or anything till much much much later than the other guys arrived and left.




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