Technical Ability

[loosecannon3]

Why are there so many people on this forum concerned about the technical abilitiy of the band. I understand times are slow and there really isn't much to talk about right now. However, I just don't get why this is so important to some people. If this is the case, wouldn't it make sense for Axl to fire everyone and just pull people from different schools (i.e. Berklee) to get the best musicians?

This is my point that it's not all about who is better at guitar, drums, bass, piano, etc. It's about the songs and the attitude. If I wanted to see great musicians, I would go watch Jazz, which by the way has guitarists even better than Bumblefoot, who everyone seems to hold in such high regard around here. I love this band beacuse I love Axl's voice (when it's in good shape) and the music. Looking at what members of the band, I could argue that DJ Ashba has been the most successful of the bunch. The Sixx:AM songs are by far the catchiest songs that anyone in the band has released.

I know it's all subjective, but I think Fortus is hands down the best guitarist in the band, simply because of diversity in his playing and his melodic abilities. I wish that guy would do a proper solo album. I also have to say that Frank is excellent on drums. Listening to him live he definitely adds that little bit of swagger to songs (like Estranged, November Rain, Used to Love Her, etc.)

I've met all the band members (except Axl unfortuately) and they were all super nice to me -- specifically DJ Ashba, Fortus, Bumblefoot and Frank. I don't get all the hate on here.

On a different toic, if someone wants to hear a good guitarist, go check out John Mayer live in L.A. The playing, guitar tone and melodies are amazing. I had no idea he was such a good guitarist until a few months ago.

[TombRaider]

I'll take soulful playing over technical wankery any day of the fucking week.

[Nosaj Thing]

tl;dr

[SoulMonster]

I'll take soulful playing over technical wankery any day of the fucking week.

Yeah, I agree with this and the first poster. It's all about the music they make, not how good they are in theory.

[Bruno P.]

I'll take soulful playing over technical wankery any day of the fucking week.

I guess we all would.

Why are there so many people on this forum concerned about the technical abilitiy of the band. I understand times are slow and there really isn't much to talk about right now. However, I just don't get why this is so important to some people. If this is the case, wouldn't it make sense for Axl to fire everyone and just pull people from different schools (i.e. Berklee) to get the best musicians?

This is my point that it's not all about who is better at guitar, drums, bass, piano, etc. It's about the songs and the attitude. If I wanted to see great musicians, I would go watch Jazz, which by the way has guitarists even better than Bumblefoot, who everyone seems to hold in such high regard around here. I love this band beacuse I love Axl's voice (when it's in good shape) and the music. Looking at what members of the band, I could argue that DJ Ashba has been the most successful of the bunch. The Sixx:AM songs are by far the catchiest songs that anyone in the band has released.

I know it's all subjective, but I think Fortus is hands down the best guitarist in the band, simply because of diversity in his playing and his melodic abilities. I wish that guy would do a proper solo album. I also have to say that Frank is excellent on drums. Listening to him live he definitely adds that little bit of swagger to songs (like Estranged, November Rain, Used to Love Her, etc.)

I've met all the band members (except Axl unfortuately) and they were all super nice to me -- specifically DJ Ashba, Fortus, Bumblefoot and Frank. I don't get all the hate on here.

It's pretty obvious that technical ability is really important. Can you imagine if Eddie Van Halen wasn't skilled enough to write those awesome guitar parts almost 40 years ago? Can you imagine if Hendrix wasn't ahead of most at the time? Or Randy... They wouldn't be able to come up with those awesome guitar parts and techniques that probably changed how every guitarist approached guitar. That's why the most influential - and certainly the most important - were the avant garde guitarists. Because they had the technique to match the musicianship. However, there's a point in which the technique surpasses - sometimes by far - the musicality and everything will be just uninspired and pointless. Those guys are usually sharpnel shredders who are there just to shred their way to the songs. That's when music stops being art and becomes competition. The world guitar record that many seem to aim for is full of those guys, like Tiago Della Vega. Malmsteen and Vai can get pretty boring when showing off and posing to the camera - happens mostly at G3 concerts when they're trying to show who's the best. Sometimes there's no music, just a lot of notes played at a very fast tempo. It's usually impressive technically, but there's no musicality behind that. That's when it becomes boring.

That's why guys like Clapton and B.B. King were so much successful (and Slash, May, Page, Perry... you name it) - not that there's much technique behind their playing, but there's musicianship behind those notes. They mean every note they play, they give every note (and the silence between them, which gives the solos the important momentum) the importance they deserve. That's when people say they "felt" the notes played. It gives the listener nothing but good feelings because they were beautiful. However, some (mostly blues) purists can't stand more notes being played than what their ear tells them to, and those guys can be as annoying as the true souless shredders. These people seem to associate more notes with less soulful playing, which is retarded. It's not about how you play the notes, it's all about when, it's all about the right time. The right song. That's why I love guys like Buckethead and Bumblefoot - they're one of the very best virtuosos yet they serve the music, not the guitar. Are there crazy solos, licks and songs? Yes. But there's a song behind every solo, it's like they're giving the song a plus when they write a great and/or technical solo.

You mentioned that you'd find great guitarists in jazz. I agree. Thing is - both Ron and Bucket are advanced jazz players as well. There are jazz greats that praised both of them naming them as one of the most interesting guitarists out there. They're more rock oriented, but that doesn't prevent them from playing jazz. There are (great) jazz inspired songs in their discography as well. They're truly versatile - their cross genre stuff is mind blowing as they can play a very beautiful bluesy solo and on the same song play the craziest solos or licks.

In Guns they got to play mostly the crazy stuff, the technical stuff - but they had to fit the crazy stuff in pretty simple and mostly generic songs. They had little room to play both their crazier stuff and the soulful stuff. That's why you'll find the best of them on their solo music. Make no mistake - they're truly amazing players. That's why musicians all around the world regard highly both of them. They're not as known as the mainstream guitarists as their music isn't everyone's cup of tea, and for that reason not many people enjoy their unorthodox playing. But those who matter are well aware of them.

[EvH]

But soulful playing and technical proficiency are far from being polar opposites.

[SoulMonster]

Can you imagine if Eddie Van Halen wasn't skilled enough to write those awesome guitar parts almost 40 years ago?

None of my favorite guitar players were inspired by Van Halen so I imagine I would like today's rock music more than I do if that was the case.

[Bruno P.]

None of my favorite guitar players were inspired by Van Halen so I imagine I would like today's rock music more than I do if that was the case.

Hardly. Great bands had guitarists and musicians inspired by the guitarist and the band, but then again we had the wrong bands and wrong musicians influencing rock through the past decades. Blame the MTV era and its shitty commercial appeal.

Directly or indirectly, several other musicians were inspired by Van Halen and Eddie kind of defined the Hard Rock/Heavy Metal guitar playing after him. Not to mention that he's probably the most influential Hard Rock/Heavy Metal guitarist ever, so most bands were influenced by his songs or his guitar playing.

[loosecannon3]

That's why guys like Clapton and B.B. King were so much successful (and Slash, May, Page, Perry... you name it) - not that there's much technique behind their playing, but there's musicianship behind those notes. They mean every note they play, they give every note (and the silence between them, which gives the solos the important momentum) the importance they deserve. That's when people say they "felt" the notes played. It gives the listener nothing but good feelings because they were beautiful. However, some (mostly blues) purists can't stand more notes being played than what their ear tells them to, and those guys can be as annoying as the true souless shredders. These people seem to associate more notes with less soulful playing, which is retarded. It's not about how you play the notes, it's all about when, it's all about the right time. The right song. That's why I love guys like Buckethead and Bumblefoot - they're one of the very best virtuosos yet they serve the music, not the guitar. Are there crazy solos, licks and songs? Yes. But there's a song behind every solo, it's like they're giving the song a plus when they write a great and/or technical solo.

You mentioned that you'd find great guitarists in jazz. I agree. Thing is - both Ron and Bucket are advanced jazz players as well. There are jazz greats that praised both of them naming them as one of the most interesting guitarists out there. They're more rock oriented, but that doesn't prevent them from playing jazz. There are (great) jazz inspired songs in their discography as well. They're truly versatile - their cross genre stuff is mind blowing as they can play a very beautiful bluesy solo and on the same song play the craziest solos or licks.

In Guns they got to play mostly the crazy stuff, the technical stuff - but they had to fit the crazy stuff in pretty simple and mostly generic songs. They had little room to play both their crazier stuff and the soulful stuff. That's why you'll find the best of them on their solo music. Make no mistake - they're truly amazing players. That's why musicians all around the world regard highly both of them. They're not as known as the mainstream guitarists as their music isn't everyone's cup of tea, and for that reason not many people enjoy their unorthodox playing. But those who matter are well aware of them.

In 2006, I always thought that Bumblefoots Knockin' on Heaven's Dorr solo (after the second verse) sounded very disorganized and chaotic. I enjoy the DJ Ashba solo much more, enough for me to lift it to incorporate into my own playing. Again, it's nothing spectaular in terms of ability (just playing off of the major scales) but it works.

Yes I have heard that Jazz guitarists praise both Bumblefoot and Buckethead. What I was saying is that I'm into GNR to listen to good melodic rock, not a guitar competition. If I wanted to listen to something technically amazing, I'd throw on some Wes Montgomery or George Benson to name a few jazz players.

My point is that so much of this forum is dedicated to how DJ Ashba misses notes, is not technically good, etc. What matters are the songs. I think Chinese Democracy had was too much going on in the songs and that the instruments needed more room to breathe. I'm hoping DJ Ashba can at least contribute to a more melodic, blusier feel.

One final note is that I hate shredding. To me it's one of those things that is cool to see for the first 10 seconds and then it becomes completely boring.

[maynard]

It's a matter of opinion. I think that Noel Gallagher is a better guitar player than Bumblefoot. I know BBF can make any sound he wants with his guitar, but he didn't write Wonderwall. I think The Edge is better than Bumblefoot, BBF has the speed and knowledge but he doesn't have a Sunday Bloody Sunday on his curriculum.

Guitar playing to me, is being able to create something magical and special. Technical players usually aren't able to do that because they want to fill their songs with notes, most of them useless.

I like Robin Finck who is very sloppy and imperfect. His playing fits NIN perfectly, so I couldn't give a shit about his technique, he creates sounds that make my day better and together with Trent, changed my perception of music forever.

Buckethead is my favorite artist from the instrumental "rock" style, specially because he goes from metal to hip hop easily. I dislike BBF because his music is generic rock with fast guitar playing.

I used to like guys like John Petrucci.. Then I grew up and realized the song as a whole is better than a cool solo, or a fast one.

Ashba is crap, Fortus seems to be very generic on his creations... That's why I think Guns now is so uninteresting. This band needs a guy like Izzy.

Edited June 13, 2013 by maynard

[Apollo]

But soulful playing and technical proficiency are far from being polar opposites.

Exactly.

Some people have this weird thought process that playing fast means no soul and feeling.......but making funny faces during a solo means you have feeling and soul.

Hard rock needs shredding. Not 24/7 of it on every song. But there is nothing wrong with a good old fashion fast kick-ass shredding solo to give a rocking song a boost. It's OK to occassionally have some wreckless fun and just shred a bit. I suppose the difference would be the solos on Nov Rain and Nighttrain. Nightrain doesn't need a solo full of feeling and soul and emotion - it needs a guitar player just shredding his guitar for 30 seconds.

[SoulMonster]

None of my favorite guitar players were inspired by Van Halen so I imagine I would like today's rock music more than I do if that was the case.

Hardly. Great bands had guitarists and musicians inspired by the guitarist and the band, but then again we had the wrong bands and wrong musicians influencing rock through the past decades. Blame the MTV era and its shitty commercial appeal.

Directly or indirectly, several other musicians were inspired by Van Halen and Eddie kind of defined the Hard Rock/Heavy Metal guitar playing after him. Not to mention that he's probably the most influential Hard Rock/Heavy Metal guitarist ever, so most bands were influenced by his songs or his guitar playing.

Not the ones I like....

[TombRaider]

It's a matter of opinion. I think that Noel Gallagher is a better guitar player than Bumblefoot. I know BBF can make any sound he wants with his guitar, but he didn't write Wonderwall. I think The Edge is better than Bumblefoot, BBF has the speed and knowledge but he doesn't have a Sunday Bloody Sunday on his curriculum.

Guitar playing to me, is being able to create something magical and special. Technical players usually aren't able to do that because they want to fill their songs with notes, most of them useless.

I like Robin Finck who is very sloppy and imperfect. His playing fits NIN perfectly, so I couldn't give a shit about his technique, he creates sounds that make my day better and together with Trent, changed my perception of music forever.

Buckethead is my favorite artist from the instrumental "rock" style, specially because he goes from metal to hip hop easily. I dislike BBF because his music is generic rock with fast guitar playing.

I used to like guys like John Petrucci.. Then I grew up and realized the song as a whole is better than a cool solo, or a fast one.

Ashba is crap, Fortus seems to be very generic on his creations... That's why I think Guns now is so uninteresting. This band needs a guy like Izzy.

Yes, yes and yes.