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Roger Waters-The Wall Live Film (w/ Russ' review)


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Guest Len B'stard

So then figure out another way to refer to the state of Israel? :shrugs:

I'm not saying it wasn't a dickhead thing to do. I'm just being a pedant for the sake of pedantry. :lol:
I get what you mean too, thats why my post had that 'it might just've been a not very well thought out idea' bit but then at the same time, if you ain't got the mental wherewithal to suss that kind of obvious shit out perhaps it'd be a good idea to leave this sort of protest to people who are good at it i.e. can actually make the point they're trying to make instead narking off an entire race inadvertedly :lol:
Or leave the rest of the wronguns on the pig and get an inflatable giraffe for the Jews? :lol:
Exactly, see, now that'd be less offensive in the previous vein, the vast majority of the animal kingdom is there to be utilised :lol:

so what does the pig represent?

Swine? Its immatierial what it represents or whether it's meant to represent anything, whats obvious is that it is a representation of a pig which is never gonna sit well with jewish folks.
animal farm the pigs took over

http://www.aggregat456.com/2007_10_01_archive.html

Emmerdale Farm the Dingles took over!

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i don't think he has a point, if you have a point to make yourself (not you, i mean Waters) then make it in a clear and respectful manner, there's no need to do stuff like that, thats just cheap and unclassy and stupid. I ain't exactly the biggest supporter of Israel or Palestine but that sort of thing is just foul, you don't need to resort to those sorts of cheap tactics if you actually have a point it will speak and stand for itself, its just pathetic, a real cheap-shot.

Whether you believe what Israel are doing is right or wrong is what it is but by doing that you've just basically had a dig at every single jewish person on the planet and believe it or not, they don't all support what Israel are doing in Palestine and even if they do they do not deserve to be attacked in this manner.

Also, Pink Floyd are a load of fuckin' bollocks :lol:

It's the old argument of musicians using the stage as a place to rant about social issues and calling for boycotts.... Shut Up N Sing. As mentioned in one of the links, the 92Y shut down his appearance, without a doubt he rankled the Jewish community in NY, where he also lives.

Everyone knew that this Wall tour was going to be a politically charged show. I'm sure some people who went didn't want to see war footage and dead soldiers, didn't agree with his views on the world; they just wanted to get high and enjoy the spectacle.

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Guest Len B'stard

I dont have a problem with bringing politics into music, in fact i think its a must and often adds substance...but not stuff like that, stuff that just comes off as akin to some sort of childish far right group prank.

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I dont have a problem with bringing politics into music, in fact i think its a must and often adds substance...but not stuff like that, stuff that just comes off as akin to some sort of childish far right group prank.

I agree with that as long as its expressed in the music itself. Not just some cheap, add on to a live show. If you feel strongly about something, incorporate it into your art. The people who then come to your shows know what the deal is and are willing to see this. But gimmicks added to the live performance is pretty lame IMO.

On a side note, my very first concert was Pink Floyd in 1987. The 'Momentary Lapse of Reason' tour. With my mum and dad. It was brilliant! I remember the pink pig balloon flying over our heads. Loved it! I was 13 at the time and it made a big impression on me actually. Quite unlike this latest story. :lol:

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Guest Len B'stard

I dont have a problem with bringing politics into music, in fact i think its a must and often adds substance...but not stuff like that, stuff that just comes off as akin to some sort of childish far right group prank.

I don't think there would be a fraction of the opposition if it was another country or idea that he was criticising, I just see the reaction as another example of not being allowed to criticise you know who. you can see from dalsh's post just "shut up and sing" seems to be the answer, well i guess "i just dont want to do it" might be an appropiate reply.

Come on man, loads of artists out there criticise Israel thing but with this instance the problem is with the abuse of a jewish religious symbol.

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I think people are confusing(perhaps deliberately) the intended anti-Israeli sentiment of the stunt with anti-Semitism which is admittedly very easy to do when they share the same insignia.

For me, it's not hard to see the message he was trying to get across but that might just be because I agree with it.

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Guest Len B'stard

I dont care if someone wants to criticise Israel, do it all you like, fuck, i come from a muslim family/background, if anybody wanted to have a turn on em surely i'd be first in line but i dont agree with shitting on no ones religion like that, even if its not what was intended and if it wasn't then it reflects a massive degree of incompetence and unfortunately for ol' Roger there are gonna be many folk that just stick with the anti-semetic interpretation because its just easy and obvious, when you set about doing something as potentially ire-invoking as criticising an entire nation the least you can do is use your fuckin' brain when doing it, what people are supposed to listen to your opinions or protestations and take em seriously when you're too thick to notice the connection of offence to be taken that particular act?

I dont have a problem with bringing politics into music, in fact i think its a must and often adds substance...but not stuff like that, stuff that just comes off as akin to some sort of childish far right group prank.

I agree with that as long as its expressed in the music itself. Not just some cheap, add on to a live show. If you feel strongly about something, incorporate it into your art. The people who then come to your shows know what the deal is and are willing to see this. But gimmicks added to the live performance is pretty lame IMO.

On a side note, my very first concert was Pink Floyd in 1987. The 'Momentary Lapse of Reason' tour. With my mum and dad. It was brilliant! I remember the pink pig balloon flying over our heads. Loved it! I was 13 at the time and it made a big impression on me actually. Quite unlike this latest story. :lol:

the idea's are incorporated in the art and the pig is part of the art. the wall for example is pretty anti war and anti fascism

I dont have a problem with bringing politics into music, in fact i think its a must and often adds substance...but not stuff like that, stuff that just comes off as akin to some sort of childish far right group prank.

I don't think there would be a fraction of the opposition if it was another country or idea that he was criticising, I just see the reaction as another example of not being allowed to criticise you know who. you can see from dalsh's post just "shut up and sing" seems to be the answer, well i guess "i just dont want to do it" might be an appropiate reply.
Come on man, loads of artists out there criticise Israel thing but with this instance the problem is with the abuse of a jewish religious symbol.
abuse?

Yes, to jewish people sticking the star of david on a pig would qualify as an abuse of it.

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I dont have a problem with bringing politics into music, in fact i think its a must and often adds substance...but not stuff like that, stuff that just comes off as akin to some sort of childish far right group prank.

I agree with that as long as its expressed in the music itself. Not just some cheap, add on to a live show. If you feel strongly about something, incorporate it into your art. The people who then come to your shows know what the deal is and are willing to see this. But gimmicks added to the live performance is pretty lame IMO.On a side note, my very first concert was Pink Floyd in 1987. The 'Momentary Lapse of Reason' tour. With my mum and dad. It was brilliant! I remember the pink pig balloon flying over our heads. Loved it! I was 13 at the time and it made a big impression on me actually. Quite unlike this latest story. :lol:
the idea's are incorporated in the art and the pig is part of the art. the wall for example is pretty anti war and anti fascism

Yes, but The Wall didn't single out any particular religion. It was very general in its expression. That's a significant difference. I have always loved The Wall and I am an atheist Australian, but still, if I saw that recent statement I'd be pretty turned off by it.

I think most people who go to a live music show don't want to have politics rammed down their throat. That's not to say that it doesn't have a place in music, I just think that the majority of people would prefer messages about tolerance and liberality, as opposed to "you against them" messages. I think it's a really slippery slope as an artist as you potentially isolate someone who previously connected with you.

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Guest Len B'stard

No ones saying you cant use it, just dont stick it on a pig unless you wanna insult the entire Jewish race.

How is it an abuse? Its an abuse in the same way as taking a shit on it is abuse. In the muslim and Jewish religion it is the highest insult you can possibly give to a thing or a person by aligning it with swine.

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No ones saying you cant use it, just dont stick it on a pig unless you wanna insult the entire Jewish race.

How is it an abuse? Its an abuse in the same way as taking a shit on it is abuse. In the muslim and Jewish religion it is the highest insult you can possibly give to a thing or a person by aligning it with swine.

What's the craic with all that anyway? I mean what's wrong with pigs?

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Guest Len B'stard

No ones saying you cant use it, just dont stick it on a pig unless you wanna insult the entire Jewish race.

How is it an abuse? Its an abuse in the same way as taking a shit on it is abuse. In the muslim and Jewish religion it is the highest insult you can possibly give to a thing or a person by aligning it with swine.

What's the craic with all that anyway? I mean what's wrong with pigs?

I believe it comes from them being considered unclean. Also something to do with split hooves and chewing and swallowing cud, i forget.

Its really a huge thing though, like a massive thing and like, one of the most cutting ways you can offend a jew or a muslim.

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No ones saying you cant use it, just dont stick it on a pig unless you wanna insult the entire Jewish race.

How is it an abuse? Its an abuse in the same way as taking a shit on it is abuse. In the muslim and Jewish religion it is the highest insult you can possibly give to a thing or a person by aligning it with swine.

What's the craic with all that anyway? I mean what's wrong with pigs?

Oh come on, even in western culture the pig has a significant meaning. Undeserving because pigs are lovely and highly intelligent animals (I considered having one as a pet but council restrictions made it difficult) but folk lore gives them definite connotations.

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Guest Len B'stard

No ones saying you cant use it, just dont stick it on a pig unless you wanna insult the entire Jewish race.

How is it an abuse? Its an abuse in the same way as taking a shit on it is abuse. In the muslim and Jewish religion it is the highest insult you can possibly give to a thing or a person by aligning it with swine.

its not about pork

You've lost me.

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No ones saying you cant use it, just dont stick it on a pig unless you wanna insult the entire Jewish race.

How is it an abuse? Its an abuse in the same way as taking a shit on it is abuse. In the muslim and Jewish religion it is the highest insult you can possibly give to a thing or a person by aligning it with swine.

What's the craic with all that anyway? I mean what's wrong with pigs?

I believe it comes from them being considered unclean. Also something to do with split hooves and chewing and swallowing cud, i forget.

Its really a huge thing though, like a massive thing and like, one of the most cutting ways you can offend a jew or a muslim.

Pigs are remarkably one of the cleanest animals. Much cleaner than dogs and often more intelligent than dogs, so I really wonder where the perceptions came from?

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Guest Len B'stard

No ones saying you cant use it, just dont stick it on a pig unless you wanna insult the entire Jewish race.

How is it an abuse? Its an abuse in the same way as taking a shit on it is abuse. In the muslim and Jewish religion it is the highest insult you can possibly give to a thing or a person by aligning it with swine.

What's the craic with all that anyway? I mean what's wrong with pigs?

I believe it comes from them being considered unclean. Also something to do with split hooves and chewing and swallowing cud, i forget.

Its really a huge thing though, like a massive thing and like, one of the most cutting ways you can offend a jew or a muslim.

Pigs are remarkably one of the cleanest animals. Much cleaner than dogs and often more intelligent than dogs, so I really wonder where the perceptions came from?

Dogs ain't kosher neither. Its something to do with being a ruminant and the way they chew and digest food and something to do with how or whether they spit cud out or something, i cant exactly remember.

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No ones saying you cant use it, just dont stick it on a pig unless you wanna insult the entire Jewish race.

How is it an abuse? Its an abuse in the same way as taking a shit on it is abuse. In the muslim and Jewish religion it is the highest insult you can possibly give to a thing or a person by aligning it with swine.

What's the craic with all that anyway? I mean what's wrong with pigs?

Oh come on, even in western culture the pig has a significant meaning. Undeserving because pigs are lovely and highly intelligent animals (I considered having one as a pet but council restrictions made it difficult) but folk lore gives them definite connotations.

Yeah but those connotations are cobblers dear. :lol:

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No ones saying you cant use it, just dont stick it on a pig unless you wanna insult the entire Jewish race.

How is it an abuse? Its an abuse in the same way as taking a shit on it is abuse. In the muslim and Jewish religion it is the highest insult you can possibly give to a thing or a person by aligning it with swine.

What's the craic with all that anyway? I mean what's wrong with pigs?

Oh come on, even in western culture the pig has a significant meaning. Undeserving because pigs are lovely and highly intelligent animals (I considered having one as a pet but council restrictions made it difficult) but folk lore gives them definite connotations.

Yeah but those connotations are cobblers dear. :lol:

Actually not at all. They clean themselves and their pens more frequently and better than any other domesticated animal, except perhaps a cat. But they are more intelligent and affectionate than cats.

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Actually not at all. They clean themselves and their pens more frequently and better than any other domesticated animal, except perhaps a cat. But they are more intelligent and affectionate than cats.

I was referring to the negative connotations. :)

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The people who then come to your shows know what the deal is and are willing to see this.

the symbology of the pig has been around since the album animals. its represents control - fascist control - you would of thought those attending would have known, it has not been hidden so its no surprise. Like alot of Floyds music.If they were not aware maybe they should be woken upThe pig has nothing to do with pork.people are allowed to be offendedwater in the desert is vital for life, the last thing you want is for your pig to be wallowing in the only watering hole

Hmmm, I never mentioned anything about pork :lol: i quite understand that their political views have nothing to do with pork :lol: :lol:

I would also like to add that I was 13 yo when I attended their concert, I went with my parents and they paid for my ticket. It was the first live music show I'd ever been to and I was mesmerised and entranced, but politics never played a single part in my experience at the time.

Actually not at all. They clean themselves and their pens more frequently and better than any other domesticated animal, except perhaps a cat. But they are more intelligent and affectionate than cats.

I was referring to the negative connotations. :)

Yes, and the negative connotations are that they are dirty and by disassociation, stupid. To the contrary.

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Well bung a star of david on it and the immediate associations are not Orwellian I'm afraid.

The associations are clear when put into the context of everything else Roger Waters has expressed through the years, things that his fans - the audience of his show - are aware of. As for everyone else who is not aware of the context, well, you can't expect everyone everywhere in the world at every point to 'get' you and everything you say. Who cares?

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