What if Axl had 'caved in' on what Slash, Duff and the poodlehaired drummer replacement wanted in the 90's?

[Guest Manny Manner]

Duff probably would have died and/or had been hospitalized due to his substance abuse.

Slash would have powertripped through the next album, then left to pursue something self-destructive. like a solo album anyway. which would have failed even more horribly than the snakepit things did.

Your entire premise is flawed, and this is why:

Your scenario is based on Axl being completely changed: he isn't an asshole dictator control-maniac in your fantasy.

Yet, you don't give that same treatment to Slash or Duff; you assume that, while Axl gets to change for the better in your insane fantasy, Slash and Duff are the same assholes they always were.

What makes my fantasy "insane"? It's just a what if, on the premise of Axl caving in. Why and how did it hurt your feelings so much so that you had to do a 180 and come attack me like that? Chill out. Here Axl caves in and does what the druggie squad tells him to do. In reality, and the all of the other topics here, he can be the control freak circus or whatever it is you want him to be.

Axl wasn't gonna ever cave. Fuck, he still hasn't. For anyone. For all intensive purposes he threw away the prime of his career to prove the fact he would never cave. And that's just sad. So much music lost forever, so many incredible live performances that never came to fruition. And I still find the " it's Axls fault" position a tired and unintelligent argument. Slash fucked everything up just as much as Axl. There were two differences. One looked at the situation and decided "fuck this, I'm gonna be proactive, And do something about this" the other shot some more dope, demanded the next GNR record be his way or nothing at all, said fuck it, and wrote an album with another band to prove he didnt need anybody, named it after himself (a clear case of " look at me, look at me ") wrote it chuck full of lyrics attacking his real lead singer. Then came back expecting everyone to fall in line. When it didn't happen, he took his guitar and went home. All of this, even without intricate detail explains pretty clearly why one will never have anything to do with the other, and why the other knows he fucked up, and has tried everything short of a live television apology to get back in good graces, and would jump at the chance of returning. If Slash was ever truly fucked over by Axl in the beginning of all this, his pride as a man couldn't allow for it. Just my opiniun. But in the end. There both a couple of assholes that can't get over each other, and the only thing they achieved in this was never fulfilling the true greatness that never was.

This is absolutely spot-on (or at least very insightful speculation). It's tragic the way they both robbed themselves of so much of their prime. For every 100 idiots there seems to be at least 1 guy who gets it and is objective about the demise of the old lineup. Indeed I don't think I could stomach navigating this forum on a daily basis without my ignore option, but it's posts like this that make it rewarding enough to do so.

[Birk]

What Axl Rose farts, DEMIGOD sniffs

[Guest Manny Manner]

The biggest problem with GNR in the late 90s was that Axl didn't want to do anything. No tour, no album, no videos, nothing. WTF is up with that?

GNR could have released an album of Slash and Duff farting for 60 minutes and they would still make $100 million on a tour in 1996. Just look at Metallica and all their crappy albums (especially Lulu). Metallica is still a respected band and they never have to worry about money in this lifetime.

But for some reason Axl had to "take it to the next level" which apparently means sulking in his mansion for the prime years of his life and then sitting by as the most important members of his nu band quit.

Actually Metallica worries about money quite a bit- Kirk and Lars have both given statements to the effect that they do not like working as much as they are- but that they have to keep revenue coming in because of (band members lifestyles and all the people that depend on them)= and that touring in this day and age is the only way to accomplish that.

[Sisyphus]

Duff probably would have died and/or had been hospitalized due to his substance abuse.

Slash would have powertripped through the next album, then left to pursue something self-destructive. like a solo album anyway. which would have failed even more horribly than the snakepit things did.

Your entire premise is flawed, and this is why:

Your scenario is based on Axl being completely changed: he isn't an asshole dictator control-maniac in your fantasy.

Yet, you don't give that same treatment to Slash or Duff; you assume that, while Axl gets to change for the better in your insane fantasy, Slash and Duff are the same assholes they always were.

What makes my fantasy "insane"? It's just a what if, on the premise of Axl caving in. Why and how did it hurt your feelings so much so that you had to do a 180 and come attack me like that? Chill out. Here Axl caves in and does what the druggie squad tells him to do. In reality, and the all of the other topics here, he can be the control freak circus or whatever it is you want him to be.

Axl wasn't gonna ever cave. Fuck, he still hasn't. For anyone. For all intensive purposes he threw away the prime of his career to prove the fact he would never cave. And that's just sad. So much music lost forever, so many incredible live performances that never came to fruition. And I still find the " it's Axls fault" position a tired and unintelligent argument. Slash fucked everything up just as much as Axl. There were two differences. One looked at the situation and decided "fuck this, I'm gonna be proactive, And do something about this" the other shot some more dope, demanded the next GNR record be his way or nothing at all, said fuck it, and wrote an album with another band to prove he didnt need anybody, named it after himself (a clear case of " look at me, look at me ") wrote it chuck full of lyrics attacking his real lead singer. Then came back expecting everyone to fall in line. When it didn't happen, he took his guitar and went home. All of this, even without intricate detail explains pretty clearly why one will never have anything to do with the other, and why the other knows he fucked up, and has tried everything short of a live television apology to get back in good graces, and would jump at the chance of returning. If Slash was ever truly fucked over by Axl in the beginning of all this, his pride as a man couldn't allow for it. Just my opiniun. But in the end. There both a couple of assholes that can't get over each other, and the only thing they achieved in this was never fulfilling the true greatness that never was.

I've always been more of an Axl fan than Slash, hence the reason I still follow this band. I agree with your assessment that they both share the responsibility for the break-up of the band but I'd like to set the record straight regarding the name Slash's Snakepit. Slash wanted the band to be called Snakepit but the record company thought it would sell more if it had his name in it. I guess he caved.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Sisyphus

[Damn_Smooth]

The biggest problem with GNR in the late 90s was that Axl didn't want to do anything. No tour, no album, no videos, nothing. WTF is up with that?

GNR could have released an album of Slash and Duff farting for 60 minutes and they would still make $100 million on a tour in 1996. Just look at Metallica and all their crappy albums (especially Lulu). Metallica is still a respected band and they never have to worry about money in this lifetime.

But for some reason Axl had to "take it to the next level" which apparently means sulking in his mansion for the prime years of his life and then sitting by as the most important members of his nu band quit.

There never were any important members of the new band, and the exact same things were said about Finck and Bucket that are said about DJ and Ron by pretty much the exact same people. Of course, they were completely right about DJ and Finck, and completely wrong about Ron and Bucket; but that's completely beside the point. Not really sure when people decided to rewrite history, but new GN'R was destined to be shit on no matter who was, or is, in the band. They never had a chance at mainstream acceptance.

Despite what about 5 people around here have somehow convinced themselves of, Slash is suffering from the exact same thing. Except that he hasn't even got one talented member in his bar band. Reality is that since the breakup neither of them had a chance at being as big again. They didn't even have a chance at staying as big had they not broke up in the first place. Barring a more likely than not death, anyway. That would have kept them big, but not worth the cost if you ask me.

PS. If there's anybody stupid enough to argue that VR was anywhere near as big as GN'R was, you need not respond. Age isn't even an excuse for that level of ignorance; and I simply don't have the patience, or time to deal with that amount of fucktardery at this point in time.

[Guest Manny Manner]

The biggest problem with GNR in the late 90s was that Axl didn't want to do anything. No tour, no album, no videos, nothing. WTF is up with that?

GNR could have released an album of Slash and Duff farting for 60 minutes and they would still make $100 million on a tour in 1996. Just look at Metallica and all their crappy albums (especially Lulu). Metallica is still a respected band and they never have to worry about money in this lifetime.

But for some reason Axl had to "take it to the next level" which apparently means sulking in his mansion for the prime years of his life and then sitting by as the most important members of his nu band quit.

There never were any important members of the new band, and the exact same things were said about Finck and Bucket that are said about DJ and Ron by pretty much the exact same people. Of course, they were completely right about DJ and Finck, and completely wrong about Ron and Bucket; but that's completely beside the point. Not really sure when people decided to rewrite history, but new GN'R was destined to be shit on no matter who was, or is, in the band. They never had a chance at mainstream acceptance.

Despite what about 5 people around here have somehow convinced themselves of, Slash is suffering from the exact same thing. Except that he hasn't even got one talented member in his bar band. Reality is that since the breakup neither of them had a chance at being as big again. They didn't even have a chance at staying as big had they not broke up in the first place. Barring a more likely than not death, anyway. That would have kept them big, but not worth the cost if you ask me.

PS. If there's anybody stupid enough to argue that VR was anywhere near as big as GN'R was, you need not respond. Age isn't even an excuse for that level of ignorance; and I simply don't have the patience, or time to deal with that amount of fucktardery at this point in time.

People tend to forget that GNR was no longer the biggest band in the world by the mid 90's. Grunge made them look like self-indulgent, out of touch dinosaurs- and SI didn't help matters. Indeed much of the tension in the band probably stemmed from that fact. I don't think the world was ready for GNR again (in any form) until around 98/99 or so.

[Damn_Smooth]

The big problem with GNR in the late 90s was that Axl didn't want to do anything. No tour, no album, no videos, nothing. WTF is up with that?

GNR could have released an album of Slash and Duff farting for 60 minutes and they would still make $100 million on a tour in 1996. Just look at Metallica and all their crappy albums (especially Lulu). Metallica is still a respected band and they never have to worry about money in this lifetime.

But for some reason Axl had to "take it to the next level" which apparently means sulking in his mansion for the prime years of his life and then sitting by as the most important members of his nu band quit.

There never were any important members of the new band, and the exact same things were said about Finck and Bucket that are said about DJ and Ron by pretty much the exact same people. Of course, they were completely right about DJ and Finck, and completely wrong about Ron and Bucket; but that's completely beside the point. Not really sure when people decided to rewrite history, but new GN'R was destined to be shit on no matter who was, or is, in the band. They never had a chance at mainstream acceptance.

Despite what about 5 people around here have somehow convinced themselves of, Slash is suffering from the exact same thing. Except that he hasn't even got one talented member in his bar band. Reality is that since the breakup neither of them had a chance at being as big again. They didn't even have a chance at staying as big had they not broke up in the first place. Barring a more likely than not death, anyway. That would have kept them big, but not worth the cost if you ask me.

PS. If there's anybody stupid enough to argue that VR was anywhere near as big as GN'R was, you need not respond. Age isn't even an excuse for that level of ignorance; and I simply don't have the patience, or time to deal with that amount of fucktardery at this point in time.

People tend to forget that GNR was no longer the biggest band in the world by the mid 90's. Grunge made them look like self-indulgent, out of touch dinosaurs- and SI didn't help matters. Indeed much of the tension in the band probably stemmed from that fact. I don't think the world was ready for GNR again (in any form) until around 98/99 or so.

They were still huge, but public opinion was definitely starting to turn against them. Pissed me off at the time, because I was still young and dumb enough to take offense to insults of a band.

Too many lawsuits, too much overindulgence and way too much personal info really did do damage to Guns' reputation near the end though. Probably made it easier for the breakup to happen.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Wasn't Snakepit a success, i'm pretty sure it was, i'm pretty sure what they laid out for budget on IFOCS was recouped easily...and then some. Thats not to say it changed the fuckin' world or anything but an album/tour etc is successful when it turns over profit and it did that handsomely if i recall.

[Damn_Smooth]

Wasn't Snakepit a success, i'm pretty sure it was, i'm pretty sure what they laid out for budget on IFOCS was recouped easily...and then some. Thats not to say it changed the fuckin' world or anything but an album/tour etc is successful when it turns over profit and it did that handsomely if i recall.

It was much like CD. A financial success, but a huge letdown compared to original expectations.

[Guest Manny Manner]

Wasn't Snakepit a success, i'm pretty sure it was, i'm pretty sure what they laid out for budget on IFOCS was recouped easily...and then some. Thats not to say it changed the fuckin' world or anything but an album/tour etc is successful when it turns over profit and it did that handsomely if i recall.

It was much like CD. A financial success, but a huge letdown compared to original expectations.

I've never heard anyone say that Snakepit was a success aside from Slash himself. I'm of the opinion that it kind of damaged the GNR name by association. On the other hand- I think CD was more of a financial failure (considering the costs), but imo it's really a work of art. I know everyone doesn't agree, but I think its the best rock record of the past decade- criminally underrated imo.

[Damn_Smooth]

The costs were taken care of by the BestBuy deal, and the rest of the world was profit. Considering that CD did most of its business in the rest of the world, that's pretty decent.

I think CD was a mixed album. It has some of my favorite Guns songs and some of my least favorite, including the absolute shittiest song ever performed by any incarnation of Guns, ITW. Seriously, that out shits(?) the Just Another Sunday demo and My World combined. It's just that shitty.

[DieselDaisy]

Slash claims that 1st Snakepit went platinum. It certainly sold quite well and was well received by the press and public at the time (I still have some of the reviews in my possession). It is only really Axl nutters who have ever had a problem with that album. I remember Snakepit playing Donington Monsters of Rock, and only fourth so down the bill, so they must have been doing something right. Beggers and Hangers On and Good To Be Alive also were rotated a lot on shows like Headbangers Ball and Noisy Mothers.

Edited July 27, 2013 by DieselDaisy

[Damn_Smooth]

Slash claims that 1st Snakepit went platinum. It certainly sold quite well and was well received by the press and public at the time (I still have some of the reviews in my possession). It is only really Axl nutters who have ever had a problem with that album. I remember Snakepit playing Donington Monsters of Rock, and only fourth so down the bill, so they must have been doing something right. Beggers and Hangers On and Good To Be Alive also were rotated a lot on shows like Headbangers Ball and Noisy Mothers.

It would only be the Slash "nutters" that believe it went platinum because a known liar says so with no evidence of any kind to back it up. It was definitely expected to go platinum, because it was a solo release from the world's favorite guitarist from the world's biggest band, but it didn't and it underperformed expectations from everybody at the time. I certainly didn't see much promotion for, or interest in their second release.

[phaeryen]

Slash claims that 1st Snakepit went platinum. It certainly sold quite well and was well received by the press and public at the time (I still have some of the reviews in my possession). It is only really Axl nutters who have ever had a problem with that album. I remember Snakepit playing Donington Monsters of Rock, and only fourth so down the bill, so they must have been doing something right. Beggers and Hangers On and Good To Be Alive also were rotated a lot on shows like Headbangers Ball and Noisy Mothers.

Snakepit did nothing right. It was just, you know, the new band by that les paul playing guy who was in the November Rain video kicking ass.

You throw demos out like the Snakepit things in the nineties without Slash and you wouldn't even land a real recording contract.

[Guest Manny Manner]

Slash claims that 1st Snakepit went platinum. It certainly sold quite well and was well received by the press and public at the time (I still have some of the reviews in my possession). It is only really Axl nutters who have ever had a problem with that album. I remember Snakepit playing Donington Monsters of Rock, and only fourth so down the bill, so they must have been doing something right. Beggers and Hangers On and Good To Be Alive also were rotated a lot on shows like Headbangers Ball and Noisy Mothers.

1st snakepit album received mixed reviews at best (many, if not most established rock critics thought it either uninspired or cartoonish to the point that it bordered on caricature) and was not certified platinum (Slash may have claimed it went platinum, but he did not mention it in his book- though he did say it turned a profit). This is all verifiable and I thought was fairly well known. I'm not getting into this Axl vs Slash stuff and judging by your "nutter" comment I see that's where you want to take it so I suppose I'll add another to the ignore list. I like discussing these kinds of things and welcome debate, but I'm not getting into insulting people nor will I dignify insults with anything other than an ignore add). Peace.

[rockerman]

Slash claims that 1st Snakepit went platinum. It certainly sold quite well and was well received by the press and public at the time (I still have some of the reviews in my possession). It is only really Axl nutters who have ever had a problem with that album. I remember Snakepit playing Donington Monsters of Rock, and only fourth so down the bill, so they must have been doing something right. Beggers and Hangers On and Good To Be Alive also were rotated a lot on shows like Headbangers Ball and Noisy Mothers.

It would only be the Slash "nutters" that believe it went platinum because a known liar says so with no evidence of any kind to back it up. It was definitely expected to go platinum, because it was a solo release from the world's favorite guitarist from the world's biggest band, but it didn't and it underperformed expectations from everybody at the time. I certainly didn't see much promotion for, or interest in their second release.

What was honest about that album was it was a SOLO effort and billed as such vs that other has been that rode in on his former friends fame and fortune....Mr. Last Man Standing.

[gunsfanoldie]

Wasn't Snakepit a success, i'm pretty sure it was, i'm pretty sure what they laid out for budget on IFOCS was recouped easily...and then some. Thats not to say it changed the fuckin' world or anything but an album/tour etc is successful when it turns over profit and it did that handsomely if i recall.

It was much like CD. A financial success, but a huge letdown compared to original expectations.

Wish I was living in your world that Chinese Democracy was a financial success. You realize Axl stayed in his mansion and cry for a year after that album failed?

Slash claims that 1st Snakepit went platinum. It certainly sold quite well and was well received by the press and public at the time (I still have some of the reviews in my possession). It is only really Axl nutters who have ever had a problem with that album. I remember Snakepit playing Donington Monsters of Rock, and only fourth so down the bill, so they must have been doing something right. Beggers and Hangers On and Good To Be Alive also were rotated a lot on shows like Headbangers Ball and Noisy Mothers.

It would only be the Slash "nutters" that believe it went platinum because a known liar says so with no evidence of any kind to back it up. It was definitely expected to go platinum, because it was a solo release from the world's favorite guitarist from the world's biggest band, but it didn't and it underperformed expectations from everybody at the time. I certainly didn't see much promotion for, or interest in their second release.

What was honest about that album was it was a SOLO effort and billed as such vs that other has been that rode in on his former friends fame and fortune....Mr. Last Man Standing.

Correctamundo. And "their second release", Ain't Life Grand, is the best rock album any of the members of GNR have put out since 1993. Absolutely no question. The people that don't admit either haven't listened to it or couldn't hear it from being so far up Axl's ass. There is a way to be objective. Chinese Democracy is a good album. Most of Slash's albums are good albums. But Ain't Life Grand is killer and the comeback album GNR should have recorded in 2001.

[Damn_Smooth]

What was honest about that album was it was a SOLO effort and billed as such vs that other has been that rode in on his former friends fame and fortune....Mr. Last Man Standing.

So you're trying (and failing) to pick an argument about something that was never in debate because you're a Slash "nutter" that can't stand to deal with reality? Sounds like a personal problem.

Wasn't Snakepit a success, i'm pretty sure it was, i'm pretty sure what they laid out for budget on IFOCS was recouped easily...and then some. Thats not to say it changed the fuckin' world or anything but an album/tour etc is successful when it turns over profit and it did that handsomely if i recall.

It was much like CD. A financial success, but a huge letdown compared to original expectations.

Wish I was living in your world that Chinese Democracy was a financial success. You realize Axl stayed in his mansion and cry for a year after that album failed?

Wish I could be a blind Slash "nutter" with no ability to understand the reality behind things. Since you would be stupid enough to turn down the profit that CD made after Best Buy took care of production costs, remind me to never in this lifetime call you for any sort of financial advice.

[Bobbo]

Slash never claimed snakepit 1 went platinum. He stated the record company said the album sold a million copies, and had turned profit. I'm assuming he meant worldwide, which was totally possible.

Vr was never big as gnr was, but, in terms of output, was better than nu guns with its actual material outselling nu guns and being better received by the public. To me, contraband is the best and most solid post 96 gnr album. Aside from that, and maybe half of snakepit I, I've only enjoyed about 2-4 songs off each of Slash's outputs. About the same amount of songs I liked from Axls record.

What should have happened for guns to survive should not have involved "caving", but compromise among both parties and all the concepts that go along with it.

[ManetsBR]

nope, they would've existed for another 40 years and become the next led zeppelin/rolling stones

Pretty much this. We can only imagine :/

[phaeryen]

Slash never claimed snakepit 1 went platinum. He stated the record company said the album sold a million copies, and had turned profit. I'm assuming he meant worldwide, which was totally possible.

Vr was never big as gnr was, but, in terms of output, was better than nu guns with its actual material outselling nu guns and being better received by the public. To me, contraband is the best and most solid post 96 gnr album. Aside from that, and maybe half of snakepit I, I've only enjoyed about 2-4 songs off each of Slash's outputs. About the same amount of songs I liked from Axls record.

What should have happened for guns to survive should not have involved "caving", but compromise among both parties and all the concepts that go along with it.

There never really was any chance of a compromise after they became part of the very elite of elite in the music world. The short time they were on the top destroyed the band just because of how the guys were.

I think I said it perfectly in another thread, where I stated that I find GNR, as a unit of the musicians, just wasn't *built* to deal with the scope of the success they achieved.

Maybe some serious group therapy and real heartfelt teambuilding while the UYI sessions were going on might have saved them. After that record dropped the doped up guys were just too out of control, Axl went semi-sober in protest and started listening to lawyers and build these schemes and play around in a world of documents and arrangements that was completely alien to him. Everyone still held the general feel that GNR wasn't done, everyone wanted to go on... but they just couldn't deal with eachother anymore. Weird ending to their story together, the late nineties.

[SWIFTSLICK]

They would've imploded anyway. Their partnership was doomed the minute Izzy quit the band. He was the glue. Everything just fell apart after that.

[Rustycage]

I'm pretty sure that Chinese Democracy has outsold everything Slash has been involved in since his departure from GNR combined.

Bullshit.

Where do you people come from?

[Damn_Smooth]

Slash never claimed snakepit 1 went platinum. He stated the record company said the album sold a million copies, and had turned profit. I'm assuming he meant worldwide, which was totally possible.

Vr was never big as gnr was, but, in terms of output, was better than nu guns with its actual material outselling nu guns and being better received by the public. To me, contraband is the best and most solid post 96 gnr album. Aside from that, and maybe half of snakepit I, I've only enjoyed about 2-4 songs off each of Slash's outputs. About the same amount of songs I liked from Axls record.

What should have happened for guns to survive should not have involved "caving", but compromise among both parties and all the concepts that go along with it.

Contraband outsold CD in the US only. There is a big world out there. Better is subjective, and I wholeheartedly disagree; but you're definitely entitled to your opinion.

[Bobbo]

Slash never claimed snakepit 1 went platinum. He stated the record company said the album sold a million copies, and had turned profit. I'm assuming he meant worldwide, which was totally possible.

Vr was never big as gnr was, but, in terms of output, was better than nu guns with its actual material outselling nu guns and being better received by the public. To me, contraband is the best and most solid post 96 gnr album. Aside from that, and maybe half of snakepit I, I've only enjoyed about 2-4 songs off each of Slash's outputs. About the same amount of songs I liked from Axls record.

What should have happened for guns to survive should not have involved "caving", but compromise among both parties and all the concepts that go along with it.

Contraband outsold CD in the US only. There is a big world out there. Better is subjective, and I wholeheartedly disagree; but you're definitely entitled to your opinion.

Overall, contrabands worldwide numbers were bigger than CDs could have possibly been based on all the information we have.

And fair enough regarding personal preference, but it's fact that the gp was overall more accepting of vrs (initial) material than they were of cd.

I'm pretty sure that Chinese Democracy has outsold everything Slash has been involved in since his departure from GNR combined.

Bullshit.

Where do you people come from?

Don't even bother. Just at the stupidity.

Slash never claimed snakepit 1 went platinum. He stated the record company said the album sold a million copies, and had turned profit. I'm assuming he meant worldwide, which was totally possible.

Vr was never big as gnr was, but, in terms of output, was better than nu guns with its actual material outselling nu guns and being better received by the public. To me, contraband is the best and most solid post 96 gnr album. Aside from that, and maybe half of snakepit I, I've only enjoyed about 2-4 songs off each of Slash's outputs. About the same amount of songs I liked from Axls record.

What should have happened for guns to survive should not have involved "caving", but compromise among both parties and all the concepts that go along with it.

There never really was any chance of a compromise after they became part of the very elite of elite in the music world. The short time they were on the top destroyed the band just because of how the guys were.

I think I said it perfectly in another thread, where I stated that I find GNR, as a unit of the musicians, just wasn't *built* to deal with the scope of the success they achieved.

Maybe some serious group therapy and real heartfelt teambuilding while the UYI sessions were going on might have saved them. After that record dropped the doped up guys were just too out of control, Axl went semi-sober in protest and started listening to lawyers and build these schemes and play around in a world of documents and arrangements that was completely alien to him. Everyone still held the general feel that GNR wasn't done, everyone wanted to go on... but they just couldn't deal with eachother anymore. Weird ending to their story together, the late nineties.

True. The odds were more than against them at that point. But in a world of hypotheticals, the focus of survival should have been more focused on compromise than either "side" surrending to the other's demands. I agree with a lot of what you're saying though.