discuss Catcher in the Rye lyrics

[wasted]

As for these other comments, it is quite an interesting topic. I think Catcher in the Rye is an amazing book, so do most people but unfortunately there have been a few psychopaths who are strangely affected by it for whatever reason. Seems fairly clear that Axl was intrigued by this and wanted to explore the reasons why.

In my view, Salinger does identify greatly with Holden's innocence and the way he feels about things but you will notice he ends up in a mental hospital at the end. Almost like Salinger was saying there is a fine line between reality and insanity. Just because you believe something doesn't make you right.

I think it's that it's easily misunderstood, to be just like Holden hates life, just like me. He's right it sucks. If you don't get the satire, then Holden is just like you, he's cool, he's right. The subtleties are lost on most. It's actually the intensity of the imagery that gets literary plaudits as well. All the probs, like hats he wears all have a meaning.

Holden got taken on by some people as a rebel figure also. This is where the lines blur, Lennon would have liked the book and Holden, Axl and Lennon are both Holdens. Everyone is. Most people have an adolescence, some more extended than others mr wasted, but there's something in the empathy/glorification of Holden's innocence that gets mis read. Why does Salinger want the Catcher to stop the kids growing up? Is it extreme empathy? or is it something more negative? And that depends on the reader, it's subjective. That's what the Catcher in the Rye is really, a book about subjectivity.

[axlsalinger]

Things are so intense when you're that age, you feel emotions so deeply. It's like you've got tunnel vision, people you really like are the very best, everybody else are phonies. But Salinger reportedly felt more comfortable around kids than adults his whole life so he definitely identified with that innocence in a number of ways.

[Rovim]

Stay a kid, blissfully unaware to what you should become by what society dictates or you just don't want to yet, but also everyone sucks once they lose the kid in them, which is most. (everyone to Salinger)

Kinda like the Nintendo spirit of making games.

It's like Salinger doesn't trust anyone to not be the enemy once they grow up. It's an automatic fail to him.

The subjective thing is interesting, cause maybe he hated everything because those that determine what was right were wrong cause it's not for them to decide. Then, who should decide? Salinger suggests chaos to me.

It's wrong to control everyone, it's wrong to limit the young spirit cause it's the only right and pure way of living according to him. Maybe.

Edited November 6, 2013 by Rovim

[axlsalinger]

He reportedly saw some seriously crazy shit in WW2 and was deeply affected by it (little known fact: Salinger was on Utah Beach on D-Day). One of his best short stories, For Esme With Love and Squalor, is about the war. Hard to say exactly how it affected Catcher but it was written in the late 40's (release in 1951) so the experience was still fresh in his mind and had to have an affect. Perhaps another reason why he didn't trust adults and was more comfortable with the innocence of children.

[wasted]

He reportedly saw some seriously crazy shit in WW2 and was deeply affected by it (little known fact: Salinger was on Utah Beach on D-Day). One of his best short stories, For Esme With Love and Squalor, is about the war. Hard to say exactly how it affected Catcher but it was written in the late 40's (release in 1951) so the experience was still fresh in his mind and had to have an affect. Perhaps another reason why he didn't trust adults and was more comfortable with the innocence of children.

I read some short stories he did in the New Yorker online. About a couple in the publishing world or something like that, same thing really lampoons the upper classes too. I really think he had the best intentions, it was a time when Children were meant to be seen and not heard, Victorian style. Teenagers weren't meant to have problems. So I think he was writing something for them, then maybe going a bit further.

I think the book suffers from being judged in a different era. Out of context in the entitled age, Holden is just another whiny kid that needs a stint in the military.

[Rovim]

He reportedly saw some seriously crazy shit in WW2 and was deeply affected by it (little known fact: Salinger was on Utah Beach on D-Day). One of his best short stories, For Esme With Love and Squalor, is about the war. Hard to say exactly how it affected Catcher but it was written in the late 40's (release in 1951) so the experience was still fresh in his mind and had to have an affect. Perhaps another reason why he didn't trust adults and was more comfortable with the innocence of children.

I read some short stories he did in the New Yorker online. About a couple in the publishing world or something like that, same thing really lampoons the upper classes too. I really think he had the best intentions, it was a time when Children were meant to be seen and not heard, Victorian style. Teenagers weren't meant to have problems. So I think he was writing something for them, then maybe going a bit further.

I think the book suffers from being judged in a different era. Out of context in the entitled age, Holden is just another whiny kid that needs a stint in the military.

I think the book could maybe be more easily shrugged off in the entitled age by people who wouldn't get it anyway.

The original intention of Salinger is still relevant today imo. The natural evolution of the world made it a more aware place, but it's things like this book that maybe tried to push it to the level it is today. What we did with it was influenced by other factors as well.

[wasted]

He reportedly saw some seriously crazy shit in WW2 and was deeply affected by it (little known fact: Salinger was on Utah Beach on D-Day). One of his best short stories, For Esme With Love and Squalor, is about the war. Hard to say exactly how it affected Catcher but it was written in the late 40's (release in 1951) so the experience was still fresh in his mind and had to have an affect. Perhaps another reason why he didn't trust adults and was more comfortable with the innocence of children.

I read some short stories he did in the New Yorker online. About a couple in the publishing world or something like that, same thing really lampoons the upper classes too. I really think he had the best intentions, it was a time when Children were meant to be seen and not heard, Victorian style. Teenagers weren't meant to have problems. So I think he was writing something for them, then maybe going a bit further.

I think the book suffers from being judged in a different era. Out of context in the entitled age, Holden is just another whiny kid that needs a stint in the military.

I think the book could maybe be more easily shrugged off in the entitled age by people who wouldn't get it anyway.

The original intention of Salinger is still relevant today imo. The natural evolution of the world made it a more aware place, but it's things like this book that maybe tried to push it to the level it is today. What we did with it was influenced by other factors as well.

In the post-literate world, people will take it on face value and say so what? The inner workings of one kid don't matter when you kill 3,000 japanese soldiers in Call of Duty an hour.

I think his intentions, are still relevant today but the people to take interest are not there. Jagger, Morrison or whoever always referencing literature, books. What did the 90s amount to? Axl and Kurt, two primo narcissists writing about themselves. And actually Cacther in the Rye, is largely met with derision by the press and fans, "Axl's book review" "A book? I feel sorry for this loser"

But when Jagger was rabling about the Master and Margarita and satan everyone was tuned in.

Maybe if Axl talked about more contemporary books. American Psycho or Fight Club.

Maybe Seven and Zodiac will be more welcomed.

[rockerman]

do you think most people take the song at face value?

I dont think most people even know this song exists, have no clue what Catcher in the Rye means and what Salinger was getting at nor are they informed that Mark David Chapman read it obssessivly and had a copy in his pocket when he shot John Lennon.

What i do know is that most people would react to "wish i had a gun" like they did to One in A Millions lyrics and message...as wrong as they would be to interpret it that way. Political correctness has all but done away with critical thinking skills in favor of herd mentality group think.

The song as a whole is a strong abstraction of ideas that could have had wheels had GNR been more relevant and current in the era. Had this song been on UYI with a better mix behind it It might have attained more stature than it has. It is the one song I do like more than any on CD.

[wasted]

do you think most people take the song at face value?

I dont think most people even know this song exists, have no clue what Catcher in the Rye means and what Salinger was getting at nor are they informed that Mark David Chapman read it obssessivly and had a copy in his pocket when he shot John Lennon.

What i do know is that most people would react to "wish i had a gun" like they did to One in A Millions lyrics and message...as wrong as they would be to interpret it that way. Political correctness has all but done away with critical thinking skills in favor of herd mentality group think.

The song as a whole is a strong abstraction of ideas that could have had wheels had GNR been more relevant and current in the era. Had this song been on UYI with a better mix behind it It might have attained more stature than it has. It is the one song I do like more than any on CD.

I think if it makes it on the live dvd or something, long term it will garner interest.

But yeah I think people would just take it as Axl wants to shoot someone. It's kind of like Used to Love Her meets One in a Million.

[Chuzeville]

I actually read Catcher in the rye after the song came out (I was catching up on american classics and read To kill a mockingbird). All along I was expecting Holden to get hold of a gun & go on a killing spree. Well done, Axl.

[wasted]

I actually read Catcher in the rye after the song came out (I was catching up on american classics and read To kill a mockingbird). All along I was expecting Holden to get hold of a gun & go on a killing spree. Well done, Axl.

This is a good point, when does Holden ever say that about getting a gun. So the verses are really just a Holden Caulfield Syndrome sufferer, or Chapman. I remember Yoko Ono saying she never used his name and wished no one in the media would.

[Rovim]

I actually read Catcher in the rye after the song came out (I was catching up on american classics and read To kill a mockingbird). All along I was expecting Holden to get hold of a gun & go on a killing spree. Well done, Axl.

This is a good point, when does Holden ever say that about getting a gun. So the verses are really just a Holden Caulfield Syndrome sufferer, or Chapman. I remember Yoko Ono saying she never used his name and wished no one in the media would.

Yeah that's very likely imo. Just an insane Holden Caulfield Syndrome sufferer that at least has the potential to be dangerous and Axl took it from there. The melody of the verses really fit the whole crazy mood of the song and lyrics. Especially Axl's vocal melodies.

'If I thought that I was crazy, well I guess I'd have more fun'

[wasted]

I actually read Catcher in the rye after the song came out (I was catching up on american classics and read To kill a mockingbird). All along I was expecting Holden to get hold of a gun & go on a killing spree. Well done, Axl.

This is a good point, when does Holden ever say that about getting a gun. So the verses are really just a Holden Caulfield Syndrome sufferer, or Chapman. I remember Yoko Ono saying she never used his name and wished no one in the media would.

Yeah that's very likely imo. Just an insane Holden Caulfield Syndrome sufferer that at least has the potential to be dangerous and Axl took it from there. The melody of the verses really fit the whole crazy mood of the song and lyrics. Especially Axl's vocal melodies.

'If I thought that I was crazy, well I guess I'd have more fun'

that's where it kind of blurs because some of the lines seem line Axl, it's Axl's version of what a crazy person would think after reading the book. But still if it was put out as a single and was on the radio people would just see it as Axl saying these things. When I first heard it I thought the outdo was Axl talking about how he got writer's block or something.

[Rovim]

I actually read Catcher in the rye after the song came out (I was catching up on american classics and read To kill a mockingbird). All along I was expecting Holden to get hold of a gun & go on a killing spree. Well done, Axl.

This is a good point, when does Holden ever say that about getting a gun. So the verses are really just a Holden Caulfield Syndrome sufferer, or Chapman. I remember Yoko Ono saying she never used his name and wished no one in the media would.

Yeah that's very likely imo. Just an insane Holden Caulfield Syndrome sufferer that at least has the potential to be dangerous and Axl took it from there. The melody of the verses really fit the whole crazy mood of the song and lyrics. Especially Axl's vocal melodies.

'If I thought that I was crazy, well I guess I'd have more fun'

that's where it kind of blurs because some of the lines seem line Axl, it's Axl's version of what a crazy person would think after reading the book. But still if it was put out as a single and was on the radio people would just see it as Axl saying these things. When I first heard it I thought the outdo was Axl talking about how he got writer's block or something.

The outro is really intense in the sense that, it does a lot of things at the same time lyrically.

Mourning, blaming, the 'not like you, unlike me' suggests the ideal person Axl thought Lennon was? not sure. And if not ideal, then 'better' then Axl and the people that were comforted by him were.

Axl framed the meaning of the murder, and the importance of having people like Lennon to keep us from...losing our minds?

Maybe just to comfort and to reminds us the human ideal of just making sure everyone's voice can be expressed and maybe that way we can avoid more tragedies, but it's also not that optimistic or cares to be, cause Axl is too broken that such a thing happened to a rare human being that gave what he did to so many people.

Also, the 'how a body took a body' lyric is cool.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

I actually read Catcher in the rye after the song came out (I was catching up on american classics and read To kill a mockingbird). All along I was expecting Holden to get hold of a gun & go on a killing spree. Well done, Axl.

This is a good point, when does Holden ever say that about getting a gun. So the verses are really just a Holden Caulfield Syndrome sufferer, or Chapman. I remember Yoko Ono saying she never used his name and wished no one in the media would.

Yeah that's very likely imo. Just an insane Holden Caulfield Syndrome sufferer that at least has the potential to be dangerous and Axl took it from there. The melody of the verses really fit the whole crazy mood of the song and lyrics. Especially Axl's vocal melodies.

'If I thought that I was crazy, well I guess I'd have more fun'

that's where it kind of blurs because some of the lines seem line Axl, it's Axl's version of what a crazy person would think after reading the book. But still if it was put out as a single and was on the radio people would just see it as Axl saying these things. When I first heard it I thought the outdo was Axl talking about how he got writer's block or something.

The outro is really intense in the sense that, it does a lot of things at the same time lyrically.

Mourning, blaming, the 'not like you, unlike me' suggests the ideal person Axl thought Lennon was? not sure. And if not ideal, then 'better' then Axl and the people that were comforted by him were.

Axl framed the meaning of the murder, and the importance of having people like Lennon to keep us from...losing our minds?

Maybe just to comfort and to reminds us the human ideal of just making sure everyone's voice can be expressed and maybe that way we can avoid more tragedies, but it's also not that optimistic or cares to be, cause Axl is too broken that such a thing happened to a rare human being that gave what he did to so many people.

Also, the 'how a body took a body' lyric is cool.

I like the epistemology of that lyric, if that's the right word, In Comin' Thru the Rye it was "meet" a body com in thru the rye, Salinger changed it to Catch a body com in thru the rye. Axl changed it so Salinger Took a body??

I think it is that, Not like Chapman/anyone, unlike Axl - we're all kind of the same really compared an artist like Lennon. But the took our innocence part, seems like it's saying it's more the image or idea of Lennon he took, rather than this ideal human.

It's shame Axl didn't tackle the CIA conspiracy angle, as in you have this figure who would have been a political force if he wanted to be, he may have been a threat. Even Yoko Ono was saying "they" got him. Chapman was most upset about Lennon claiming Beatles were bigger than God. Lennon was shouting his mouth off in NYC, in a similar way that JFK was making enemies. Didn't they try to deport Lennon at some point?

But overall, the Holden Syndrome element makes the song more like Look at Your Game Girl, it has a Mansonesque darkness to it or a conspiracy theory vibe. The syndrome thing is a conspiracy theory. There's two versions of it too, one is people who read the book who become like Holden in their attitudes based on the book and there's another condition kind of like rage mixed with borderline personalities that doctor's referred to as the Holden Caulfield Syndrome, because the symptoms are similar to Holden. People who are like that may be seen as pathologically adolescent, but really it's more like Aspergers. Chapman had also stalked some guy from Mama's and Papas, Phillips? So it wasn't completely about Lennon. In one book it suggested that the CIA would pick a known stalker like this and turn their attention to Lennon. Seems a bit far fetched to me. I do wonder if it was just an assassination, as in politically motivated. Oswald, Chapman and that Sqwirl guy that leaked CD were all set up by the illuminati.

Edited November 8, 2013 by wasted

[Mr. Dude]

He reportedly saw some seriously crazy shit in WW2 and was deeply affected by it (little known fact: Salinger was on Utah Beach on D-Day). One of his best short stories, For Esme With Love and Squalor, is about the war. Hard to say exactly how it affected Catcher but it was written in the late 40's (release in 1951) so the experience was still fresh in his mind and had to have an affect. Perhaps another reason why he didn't trust adults and was more comfortable with the innocence of children.

I read some short stories he did in the New Yorker online. About a couple in the publishing world or something like that, same thing really lampoons the upper classes too. I really think he had the best intentions, it was a time when Children were meant to be seen and not heard, Victorian style. Teenagers weren't meant to have problems. So I think he was writing something for them, then maybe going a bit further.

I think the book suffers from being judged in a different era. Out of context in the entitled age, Holden is just another whiny kid that needs a stint in the military.

I think the book could maybe be more easily shrugged off in the entitled age by people who wouldn't get it anyway.

The original intention of Salinger is still relevant today imo. The natural evolution of the world made it a more aware place, but it's things like this book that maybe tried to push it to the level it is today. What we did with it was influenced by other factors as well.

In the post-literate world, people will take it on face value and say so what? The inner workings of one kid don't matter when you kill 3,000 japanese soldiers in Call of Duty an hour.

I think his intentions, are still relevant today but the people to take interest are not there. Jagger, Morrison or whoever always referencing literature, books. What did the 90s amount to? Axl and Kurt, two primo narcissists writing about themselves. And actually Cacther in the Rye, is largely met with derision by the press and fans, "Axl's book review" "A book? I feel sorry for this loser"

But when Jagger was rabling about the Master and Margarita and satan everyone was tuned in.

Maybe if Axl talked about more contemporary books. American Psycho or Fight Club.

Maybe Seven and Zodiac will be more welcomed.

Looks like we got ourselves a reader.

[wasted]

He reportedly saw some seriously crazy shit in WW2 and was deeply affected by it (little known fact: Salinger was on Utah Beach on D-Day). One of his best short stories, For Esme With Love and Squalor, is about the war. Hard to say exactly how it affected Catcher but it was written in the late 40's (release in 1951) so the experience was still fresh in his mind and had to have an affect. Perhaps another reason why he didn't trust adults and was more comfortable with the innocence of children.

I read some short stories he did in the New Yorker online. About a couple in the publishing world or something like that, same thing really lampoons the upper classes too. I really think he had the best intentions, it was a time when Children were meant to be seen and not heard, Victorian style. Teenagers weren't meant to have problems. So I think he was writing something for them, then maybe going a bit further.

I think the book suffers from being judged in a different era. Out of context in the entitled age, Holden is just another whiny kid that needs a stint in the military.

I think the book could maybe be more easily shrugged off in the entitled age by people who wouldn't get it anyway.

The original intention of Salinger is still relevant today imo. The natural evolution of the world made it a more aware place, but it's things like this book that maybe tried to push it to the level it is today. What we did with it was influenced by other factors as well.

In the post-literate world, people will take it on face value and say so what? The inner workings of one kid don't matter when you kill 3,000 japanese soldiers in Call of Duty an hour.

I think his intentions, are still relevant today but the people to take interest are not there. Jagger, Morrison or whoever always referencing literature, books. What did the 90s amount to? Axl and Kurt, two primo narcissists writing about themselves. And actually Cacther in the Rye, is largely met with derision by the press and fans, "Axl's book review" "A book? I feel sorry for this loser"

But when Jagger was rabling about the Master and Margarita and satan everyone was tuned in.

Maybe if Axl talked about more contemporary books. American Psycho or Fight Club.

Maybe Seven and Zodiac will be more welcomed.

Looks like we got ourselves a reader.

and a waffle waitress.

[Mr. Dude]

The waffle waitress is the record buying public.

Edited December 16, 2013 by Mr. Dude

[wasted]

The waffle waitress is the record buying public.

That must be why I've got a shit load of cds. I defy the logic because I serve waffles and read a lot of books. mostly romances and biographies of famous rappers. I think Bill was talking about Chomsky and Johnson though. Mills & Boone will never kick start a revolution. Unless it's a run on hand wipes.

[ohlovelyrita]

"So you were the instrument

You were the one

Somebody took the body

Gave that boy a gun

Took our innocence

Beyond our stance

Some type of moment

There ya got it

The only thing you did"

Sounds like Mark David Chapman is a victim of society, too.

"if a body catch a body comin' thru the rye"

Conspiracy theorists talk on Chapman and MK- Ultr@. Lennon had a 10k page file by the gov't.

I think Yoko believes this. That's only my opinion based on her very vague comments a few years back.

So Chapman may have been used to silence the man that was teaching people to be for peace.

I think it's one of the best songs on the album. I don't agree with Axl since

he doesn't think Houlden is necessary. Same with Huckleberry Finn I bet. Both are

worthy characters. If he doesn't find them so then he may just be so extremely

well-red that he is hard to impress. Certainly, many have dismissed CiTR because

the expectations were huge. I think it clear now that Houlden is Salinger. Salinger

didn't think he was crazy so he took offense when Houlden was described as such.

Edited December 17, 2013 by ohlovelyrita

[wasted]

"So you were the instrument

You were the one

Somebody took the body

Gave that boy a gun

Took our innocence

Beyond our stance

Some type of moment

There ya got it

The only thing you did"

Sounds like Mark David Chapman is a victim of society, too.

"if a body catch a body comin' thru the rye"

Conspiracy theorists talk on Chapman and MK- Ultr@. Lennon had a 10k page file by the gov't.

I think Yoko believes this. That's only my opinion based on her very vague comments a few years back.

So Chapman may have been used to silence the man that was teaching people to be for peace.

I think it's one of the best songs on the album. I don't agree with Axl since

he doesn't think Houlden is necessary. Same with Huckleberry Finn I bet. Both are

worthy characters. If he doesn't find them so then he may just be so extremely

well-red that he is hard to impress. Certainly, many have dismissed CiTR because

the expectations were huge. I think it clear now that Houlden is Salinger. Salinger

didn't think he was crazy so he took offense when Houlden was described as such.

i think those lyrics are wrong.

Some think Salinger did believe that the adult world was terrible. and that is ultimately the message of the book. remain innocent the catcher in his mind saves people from growing up. Even if you go crazy like Holden, there's something beautiful about it..

The original song "Comin' thru the Rye" is about teenagers meeting in the fields to make out. The word in the song is "meet" a body, Salinger changed it to "Catcher a body" as in catch the kids before they grow up. Axl turned it back on Salinger who "took a body" and gave that boy a gun.

What is the catcher part in the book there for? I think it's his hope, it's an offering to or empathy for kids having to grow up and face the world etc. Is it poetic, insightful? or just bad message to teach kids. Ok, Holden is funny, he's telling the truth. It's strange because Chapman didn't talk about the Catcher, he just identified with Holden who called everyone phonies and of course everyone is. But it reinforced his belief that Lennon was a phony, and he was now Lennon, or whatever crazy shit he thought. If he understood the book he would second guess his crazy thoughts. But he wasn't thinking in that way.

Edited December 17, 2013 by wasted

[ohlovelyrita]

"So you were the instrument

You were the one

Somebody took the body

Gave that boy a gun

Took our innocence

Beyond our stance

Some type of moment

There ya got it

The only thing you did"

Sounds like Mark David Chapman is a victim of society, too.

"if a body catch a body comin' thru the rye"

Conspiracy theorists talk on Chapman and MK- Ultr@. Lennon had a 10k page file by the gov't.

I think Yoko believes this. That's only my opinion based on her very vague comments a few years back.

So Chapman may have been used to silence the man that was teaching people to be for peace.

I think it's one of the best songs on the album. I don't agree with Axl since

he doesn't think Houlden is necessary. Same with Huckleberry Finn I bet. Both are

worthy characters. If he doesn't find them so then he may just be so extremely

well-red that he is hard to impress. Certainly, many have dismissed CiTR because

the expectations were huge. I think it clear now that Houlden is Salinger. Salinger

didn't think he was crazy so he took offense when Houlden was described as such.

i think those lyrics are wrong.

Some think Salinger did believe that the adult world was terrible. and that is ultimately the message of the book. remain innocent the catcher in his mind saves people from growing up. Even if you go crazy like Holden, there's something beautiful about it..

The original song "Comin' thru the Rye" is about teenagers meeting in the fields to make out. The word in the song is "meet" a body, Salinger changed it to "Catcher a body" as in catch the kids before they grow up. Axl turned it back on Salinger who "took a body" and gave that boy a gun.

What is the catcher part in the book there for? I think it's his hope, it's an offering to or empathy for kids having to grow up and face the world etc. Is it poetic, insightful? or just bad message to teach kids. Ok, Holden is funny, he's telling the truth. It's strange because Chapman didn't talk about the Catcher, he just identified with Holden who called everyone phonies and of course everyone is. But it reinforced his belief that Lennon was a phony, and he was now Lennon, or whatever crazy shit he thought. If he understood the book he would second guess his crazy thoughts. But he wasn't thinking in that way.

I got the lyrics from your link. I got that "meet" turned to "catch" and Axl's lyric became "took". Catching kids before they fall over in the rye is

a good visual but Holden is not thinking anything through. How is Holden helping children by protecting them from making their mistakes?

Growth is going from one plane to another not just getting older which he seems to fear. There is growth is trauma. A new term is "post traumatic growth".

He seems to enjoy being advanced for his age and he can't fathom loosing that status. Immature or too self-assured?

Chapman may have been programed and there is talk about a second shooter. Didn't he write on the book "This is my statement"?

The book is said to have been a "trigger". Did he even finish the book? He ran into Lennon early and got an autograph. Did he not

get enough satisfaction from the encounter, possibly that part could read like how Holden views encounters. Holden never really

connects to his satisfaction....

[wasted]

"So you were the instrument

You were the one

Somebody took the body

Gave that boy a gun

Took our innocence

Beyond our stance

Some type of moment

There ya got it

The only thing you did"

Sounds like Mark David Chapman is a victim of society, too.

"if a body catch a body comin' thru the rye"

Conspiracy theorists talk on Chapman and MK- Ultr@. Lennon had a 10k page file by the gov't.

I think Yoko believes this. That's only my opinion based on her very vague comments a few years back.

So Chapman may have been used to silence the man that was teaching people to be for peace.

I think it's one of the best songs on the album. I don't agree with Axl since

he doesn't think Houlden is necessary. Same with Huckleberry Finn I bet. Both are

worthy characters. If he doesn't find them so then he may just be so extremely

well-red that he is hard to impress. Certainly, many have dismissed CiTR because

the expectations were huge. I think it clear now that Houlden is Salinger. Salinger

didn't think he was crazy so he took offense when Houlden was described as such.

i think those lyrics are wrong.

Some think Salinger did believe that the adult world was terrible. and that is ultimately the message of the book. remain innocent the catcher in his mind saves people from growing up. Even if you go crazy like Holden, there's something beautiful about it..

The original song "Comin' thru the Rye" is about teenagers meeting in the fields to make out. The word in the song is "meet" a body, Salinger changed it to "Catcher a body" as in catch the kids before they grow up. Axl turned it back on Salinger who "took a body" and gave that boy a gun.

What is the catcher part in the book there for? I think it's his hope, it's an offering to or empathy for kids having to grow up and face the world etc. Is it poetic, insightful? or just bad message to teach kids. Ok, Holden is funny, he's telling the truth. It's strange because Chapman didn't talk about the Catcher, he just identified with Holden who called everyone phonies and of course everyone is. But it reinforced his belief that Lennon was a phony, and he was now Lennon, or whatever crazy shit he thought. If he understood the book he would second guess his crazy thoughts. But he wasn't thinking in that way.

I got the lyrics from your link. I got that "meet" turned to "catch" and Axl's lyric became "took". Catching kids before they fall over in the rye is

a good visual but Holden is not thinking anything through. How is Holden helping children by protecting them from making their mistakes?

Growth is going from one plane to another not just getting older which he seems to fear. There is growth is trauma. A new term is "post traumatic growth".

He seems to enjoy being advanced for his age and he can't fathom loosing that status. Immature or too self-assured?

Chapman may have been programed and there is talk about a second shooter. Didn't he write on the book "This is my statement"?

The book is said to have been a "trigger". Did he even finish the book? He ran into Lennon early and got an autograph. Did he not

get enough satisfaction from the encounter, possibly that part could read like how Holden views encounters. Holden never really

connects to his satisfaction....

The catcher part is really inserted by salinger. It might holdens dream or something. But its really salinger speaking through holden at least.

Those lyrics are right about the old song, salinger and axl words. Not the lyrics u posted. Not that it matters.

I have read about the CIA using the book as a trigger. With a link to the RFK assin. especially. If true chapman has had time to say something. Was hoover operating at that time?

security was pretty lax back then.

Edited December 17, 2013 by wasted

[Trin9498]

Sometimes I like it, sometimes I think it's way overrated. I like the outro. Just can't pinpoint what makes me waver on this song. Ditto for Street of Dreams. Sympathy for the Devil on the hand is underrated.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Trin9498

[Iron MikeyJ]

The last verse is brilliant. Axl has always had a way of saving his best verse for last, and CITR is just the latest one. But if you think about it; YCBM, RQ, and more (haven't had my coffee yet, brain not functioning). But I agree, the last verse in catcher is the best, that one gets stuck in my head.