The Guns N' Roses concert in São Paulo will be EMPTY

[ChristianGNR]

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/ilustrada/2014/01/1401149-preco-para-o-show-do-guns-n-roses-no-rio-custam-de-r-190-a-r-520.shtml

[Pinball Wizard]

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/ilustrada/2014/01/1401149-preco-para-o-show-do-guns-n-roses-no-rio-custam-de-r-190-a-r-520.shtml

Got mine for the Rio gig today. But Rio is not a parameter to see if a tour is going to flop or not. We, from Rio, don't usually care about buying tickets in advance, we tend to buy them closer to the show, sometimes hours before it starts. I remember going to see Faith No More and the show had to have its starting time delayed because there was so much people outside buying tickets. I think 30% of the tickets were bought on the night of the show!

[Coma16]

Does it count as "sold out" if a promoter bought them all, or perhaps even Best Buy?

[Damn_Smooth]

Does it count as "sold out" if a promoter bought them all, or perhaps even Best Buy?

You think Best Buy is out there buying Guns N' Roses tickets?

[EvH]

"I told them to put GN'R first on the bill, and the puppet show after!"

[Coma16]

Does it count as "sold out" if a promoter bought them all, or perhaps even Best Buy?

You think Best Buy is out there buying Guns N' Roses tickets?

Sure, why not? They can include a ticket in the CD2 packaging.

[bangit]

How much are standard tickets, ie standing / 'normal' seats. Gnr usually charge about £45 in the uk, (70$). Anymore than this is a fucking joke.

[Pinball Wizard]

How much are standard tickets, ie standing / 'normal' seats. Gnr usually charge about £45 in the uk, (70$). Anymore than this is a fucking joke.

Tickets in Brazil usually float around these values. Black Sabbath and Aerosmith were R$600 each for the "premium area" last year. The GA, the area right behind the premium area, I think was something around R$250. Sebastian Bach, for fuck's sake, was almost R$200 for the GA in a shitty club in São Paulo.

But we, the public, are also to be blamed for this. It's expensive, we complain about it, but we buy it anyway. If people wouldn't buy I bet the promoters would charge less. But if they know they will have an almost sold out concert with tickets that expensive, why to charge less? Can you blame them? It's business and I would do the same...

Edited January 23, 2014 by Pinball Wizard

[Damn_Smooth]

Does it count as "sold out" if a promoter bought them all, or perhaps even Best Buy?

You think Best Buy is out there buying Guns N' Roses tickets?

Sure, why not? They can include a ticket in the CD2 packaging.

Include a ticket for a show long over in an album that they probably don't want as an exclusive? Considering that this is GN'R, that probably is the most likely thing that will happen.

[downzy]

The São Paulo Prefecture, the Culture Secretariat etc...

Same goes for the ticket prices. They have absolutely no input in these. It's very rare for a band to have. On 2009 AC/DC came to Brazil and the tickets went on sale with a premium area. Word around was that AC/DC called it off until the promoters removed the premium area. It's the only case I know. Also, the concerts that are not in the South of Brazil don't feature that "Jungle Zone", because they are being promoted by a different agent.

Most times the band management is barely involved with the opening act, actually. Imagine with the audience areas.

When it comes to tour, Team Brazil's job is to get Guns N' Roses in touch with the promoter. The promoter handles basically everything related to the concert itself: tickets, venue booking, prices etc.

Yes and no. Bands have a lot to do with ticket prices, as their guaranteed fee often determines how much promoters must charge to recoup his or her costs and make a profit. GNR can't get too upset if its fans are being hosed when they're demanding an exorbitant performance fee from a promoter.

The dirty secrete of the touring business is that promoters and ticket retailers (like Ticketmaster) are little more than cover for bands. It works out great for bands - fans love them but hate promoters and Ticketmaster who they perceive as driving ticket prices despite the fact that it's actually the bands themselves who are driving costs. If you want to know why service fees are now in the $20-$30 range for most established acts, it's because all the money from the ticket goes to the band (either directly or used to recoup the upfront fee) leaving little to nothing for the promoter, venue, and ticket retailer.

There's got to be more to the promoter determining ticket prices than just what the band demands as their cut; I won't pretend I know what because I don't. Last Summer when I was in Europe for Maiden, the most expensive tickets for Bucharest were about $35. Two days later in Istanbul, the most expensive tickets were over $300 - there's no way that price difference could've been determined by the band's cut. It surely couldn't be explained by the difference in income either, because the Istanbul show was absolutely empty, but thousands of people were standing on the ridge above the stadium where they could watch for free.

The point is, sometimes promoters grossly overestimate what they can charge for a gig. It sucks, but it does happen

There could be many reasons for the price discrepancy. First, some bands work off of a sliding scale relative to market strength and size. If they perceive certain markets yielding better returns, their agent will adjust their guarantee. It's why GNR might charge more to a promoter in Toronto than they would in a place like Buffalo. My bet is this explains why tickets for the Detroit UCAP tour were substantially lower than the Toronto club gig a year later.

Second, perhaps both the band and the promoter overvalued Maiden's worth in Istanbul. There is absolutely no way that Maiden was being paid the same rate in Bucharest as they were in Istanbul if there was that large of a discrepancy in ticket prices. Their agents would simply not allow that to happen.

Also, perhaps the Bucharest concert was received better sponsorship deals that allowed for a steep difference in prices.

We also don't know how many of the total tickets available were at the $300 price point. My bet is that a very small portion of the tickets available were set at $300, and that these tickets included access and perks that simply weren't available to those attending the Bucharest show. Most large markets will generally charge the same for most of the tickets available.

But it is also a possibility that Maiden went into business with an extremely greedy promoter. That's definitely a possibility. But generally touring contracts are worked over by lawyers and agents to ensure that most of revenue ends up in the band's account, and not the promoter. Remember, there is only one Maiden and many different promoters. I cannot see any large band doing business with a promoter it deemed as greedy so long as such greed was working for them.

I also have to think that if the venue was not situated where thousands could still see the show for free that there would have been a bigger turn out in the venue. Stands to reason that selling a ticket at any price is a difficult proposition if a fan can catch the concert for nothing.

But make no mistake about it, most bands are not interested in ensuring reasonable ticket prices for their fans. If they were, they'd support paperless ticketing. Such a practice would eliminate (or greatly reduce) the scalper market, but that in turn would hurt the bottom line for most bands.

It use to be that bands would demand a guarantee fee and then the promoter and band would split after break-even. But then guys like Michael Cohl, Bob Sillerman, and Michael Rapino revolutionized the touring business by over-paying acts. And now most bands see their inflated rates as the new normal.

There's a lot of hands in the cookie jar, but if you think anyone other than the acts are pulling out the biggest cookie you're deluding yourself.

Edited January 23, 2014 by downzy

[gnrkoncerti]

Well ticket selling going fine...I really doubt Shows will be empty.
Porto Alegre update: Ingressos para show do Guns N' Roses entram no segundo lote (in Portuguese)

I think it says they sold out the first batch of tickets.

[Crash Diet]

It's only January.

This

Plus Brazilian fans will eat Axl's shit if he decide to sale his turd

Sad if true but whoever is asking $300 for Axl's current band is insane.

Asking for $300 for a ticket show in these tough days where people are facing several difficulties is insane be it GNR, Springsteen, Metallica or whoever.

agreed

Hear the same shit everytime Axl heads out for the road.

Your profile pick contains a dead body, you should be banned

Does it count as "sold out" if a promoter bought them all, or perhaps even Best Buy?

You think Best Buy is out there buying Guns N' Roses tickets?

No

Just the ticket scalpers as usual

[Powerage5]

The São Paulo Prefecture, the Culture Secretariat etc...

Same goes for the ticket prices. They have absolutely no input in these. It's very rare for a band to have. On 2009 AC/DC came to Brazil and the tickets went on sale with a premium area. Word around was that AC/DC called it off until the promoters removed the premium area. It's the only case I know. Also, the concerts that are not in the South of Brazil don't feature that "Jungle Zone", because they are being promoted by a different agent.

Most times the band management is barely involved with the opening act, actually. Imagine with the audience areas.

When it comes to tour, Team Brazil's job is to get Guns N' Roses in touch with the promoter. The promoter handles basically everything related to the concert itself: tickets, venue booking, prices etc.

Yes and no. Bands have a lot to do with ticket prices, as their guaranteed fee often determines how much promoters must charge to recoup his or her costs and make a profit. GNR can't get too upset if its fans are being hosed when they're demanding an exorbitant performance fee from a promoter.

The dirty secrete of the touring business is that promoters and ticket retailers (like Ticketmaster) are little more than cover for bands. It works out great for bands - fans love them but hate promoters and Ticketmaster who they perceive as driving ticket prices despite the fact that it's actually the bands themselves who are driving costs. If you want to know why service fees are now in the $20-$30 range for most established acts, it's because all the money from the ticket goes to the band (either directly or used to recoup the upfront fee) leaving little to nothing for the promoter, venue, and ticket retailer.

There's got to be more to the promoter determining ticket prices than just what the band demands as their cut; I won't pretend I know what because I don't. Last Summer when I was in Europe for Maiden, the most expensive tickets for Bucharest were about $35. Two days later in Istanbul, the most expensive tickets were over $300 - there's no way that price difference could've been determined by the band's cut. It surely couldn't be explained by the difference in income either, because the Istanbul show was absolutely empty, but thousands of people were standing on the ridge above the stadium where they could watch for free.

The point is, sometimes promoters grossly overestimate what they can charge for a gig. It sucks, but it does happen

There could be many reasons for the price discrepancy. First, some bands work off of a sliding scale relative to market strength and size. If they perceive certain markets yielding better returns, their agent will adjust their guarantee. It's why GNR might charge more to a promoter in Toronto than they would in a place like Buffalo. My bet is this explains why tickets for the Detroit UCAP tour were substantially lower than the Toronto club gig a year later.

Second, perhaps both the band and the promoter overvalued Maiden's worth in Istanbul. There is absolutely no way that Maiden was being paid the same rate in Bucharest as they were in Istanbul if there was that large of a discrepancy in ticket prices. Their agents would simply not allow that to happen.

Also, perhaps the Bucharest concert was received better sponsorship deals that allowed for a steep difference in prices.

We also don't know how many of the total tickets available were at the $300 price point. My bet is that a very small portion of the tickets available were set at $300, and that these tickets included access and perks that simply weren't available to those attending the Bucharest show. Most large markets will generally charge the same for most of the tickets available.

But it is also a possibility that Maiden went into business with an extremely greedy promoter. That's definitely a possibility. But generally touring contracts are worked over by lawyers and agents to ensure that most of revenue ends up in the band's account, and not the promoter. Remember, there is only one Maiden and many different promoters. I cannot see any large band doing business with a promoter it deemed as greedy so long as such greed was working for them.

I also have to think that if the venue was not situated where thousands could still see the show for free that there would have been a bigger turn out in the venue. Stands to reason that selling a ticket at any price is a difficult proposition if a fan can catch the concert for nothing.

But make no mistake about it, most bands are not interested in ensuring reasonable ticket prices for their fans. If they were, they'd support paperless ticketing. Such a practice would eliminate (or greatly reduce) the scalper market, but that in turn would hurt the bottom line for most bands.

It use to be that bands would demand a guarantee fee and then the promoter and band would split after break-even. But then guys like Michael Cohl, Bob Sillerman, and Michael Rapino revolutionized the touring business by over-paying acts. And now most bands see their inflated rates as the new normal.

There's a lot of hands in the cookie jar, but if you think anyone other than the acts are pulling out the biggest cookie you're deluding yourself.

Not to get this too far off topic, but here's some more pertinent info on my scenario last Summer (And other points you brought up):

- Maiden do generally work on a flexible pricing scale so that bigger markets the tickets are more expensive. There's always a few head-scratchers in there though; like (also last summer) how the most expensive St. Petersburg tickets were $60 and the most expensive Moscow tickets were over $400. I guess this was a similar scenario, but may have made for a better example in my OP given they're both major markets in the same country.

- Somebody overvalued Maiden's worth in Istanbul for sure - it was a stadium gig that was only about 25% full. Every other gig they've ever done in Istanbul had a great yield and the last one was in 2011, so maybe just a case of over-saturation of the market?

- The $35 tickets in Bucharest and the $300 tickets in Istanbul were essentially the same thing - just a gold circle ticket, no bells and whistles for Istanbul. These were the tickets I was comped for both gigs by being on Anthrax's guest list.

- There were a considerable number of $300 tickets available for Istanbul; the gold circle was just about half of the field in a football stadium. I'm guessing that's somewhere around 5,000?

- Maiden use paperless tickets in the US, but not Europe as the system has never run smoothly when they've tried it in Europe.

I'm sure there are a number of factors that contributed in that scenario. I think my point still stands though that the band aren't, in essence, single-handedly deciding ticket prices as several have suggested.

[downzy]

Not to get this too far off topic, but here's some more pertinent info on my scenario last Summer (And other points you brought up):

- Maiden do generally work on a flexible pricing scale so that bigger markets the tickets are more expensive. There's always a few head-scratchers in there though; like (also last summer) how the most expensive St. Petersburg tickets were $60 and the most expensive Moscow tickets were over $400. I guess this was a similar scenario, but may have made for a better example in my OP given they're both major markets in the same country.

- Somebody overvalued Maiden's worth in Istanbul for sure - it was a stadium gig that was only about 25% full. Every other gig they've ever done in Istanbul had a great yield and the last one was in 2011, so maybe just a case of over-saturation of the market?

- The $35 tickets in Bucharest and the $300 tickets in Istanbul were essentially the same thing - just a gold circle ticket, no bells and whistles for Istanbul. These were the tickets I was comped for both gigs by being on Anthrax's guest list.

- There were a considerable number of $300 tickets available for Istanbul; the gold circle was just about half of the field in a football stadium. I'm guessing that's somewhere around 5,000?

- Maiden use paperless tickets in the US, but not Europe as the system has never run smoothly when they've tried it in Europe.

I'm sure there are a number of factors that contributed in that scenario. I think my point still stands though that the band aren't, in essence, single-handedly deciding ticket prices as several have suggested.

Maiden might be the exception to the rule then. Most bands, especially large bands who are long past their prime (Aerosmith, U2, Rolling Stones, Elton John, Billy Joel, Bruce Springsteen, etc), rely on gimmicks and tactics in order to inflate ticket prices and sales.

My guess would be to your point that whoever was handling Maiden's tour spots (likely their agent) not only overvalued the band's draw potential but got a promoter to buy into that potential as well. Unless we're talking about AEG or Livenation, no tour operator or promoter would price themselves out of the market by over paying an act if they didn't feel they could recoup that cost by charging more for tickets.

But again, I would have a hard time believing that if Maiden (or Guns) is charging a certain price for one market (say $30) and another for a different market ($300), there is no way that the band isn't getting a major portion of that gross. If the band is fine with getting $25 per ticket from the $30 show, I can assure you that they would not be fine with receiving the same $25 for the concert where tickets top out at $300. No agent or business manager would sign off on such a deal. Unless both shows are being promoted by the same person/company, then perhaps an arrangement is made whereby one show subsidizes the other.

Bands aren't single-handedly deciding ticket prices, but they are what's driving them. It might start out with the promoter who offers to pay band Z to play at venue Y for X amount of money. In order for the promoter to pay X, they need to charge a much higher ticket than perhaps other promoters are willing to pay band Z. But by virtue of the band accepting the deal, they are enabling and driving higher ticket prices. That was the model that took off in the mid to late 90s and now we've reached the point where most iconic bands expect that inflated rate to play. So much so that many bands actually scalp their own tickets.

[Felipe Barbieri]

Guys, I'm sorry, I can't read all the posts here but I read some of them and I think I have to explain some points:

(First, I have a page on facebook called Axl Rose Fã Clube and a web site www.axlrosefaclube.com, so if the concerts here in Brazil are good, it will be good for me too. I don't want to see a terrible audience, but sometimes I think that the band would like if it happens, because they're doing everything to make it happen! (and the brazilian companies too)

1-If you don't live in Brazil you probably have not seen the media talking about the concert in Rock in Rio…imagine someone talking about a murder or a pedophile, it was like this! So, if you don't follow the band news to know that that this show was a exception, Guns N' Roses is dead for you, because no one wants to pay 300 reais to see that terrible voice! (and the majority people don't see every single shows on Chinese Democracy tour to know that Axl sometimes sings very well!

2-It's not usual in Brazil have to be over than 16 years to see concerts… Usually if you are 14 you can go without your parents, or with a autorization note. Without your parents, IN SÃO PAULO (just here), you can go just if you're 18 years old…serious, it's ridiculous in Brazil, but this point is not GNR fault!

3-If in 2010 the concert was not crowded, why this year people would like to go? What happend between 2010 and 2014 to make people pay 300 reais and go there to see the band? There is new songs? NO…There is a good advertise? NO…The media here is reporting good thing about Axl? NOOO…So, why i would have to believe that this concert will be crowded?

I have no reasons to think good things…

I don't want to see a "empty audience", even if it would be better to see the show…but dude, I'm going to a rock n' roll concert, I want to see crazy people jumping and singing like ACDC on River Plate Stadium, and not a pussy guys like Bon Jovi!

I'm hopping I'm wrong

(sorry about my English)

Edited January 24, 2014 by Felipe Barbieri

[Felipe Barbieri]

There is one more thing:

In 2010 the premmium tickets were sold out in the first week (the half prices tickets, because students pay a half here). Today, I saw the website and we're still in the second crowd (can I say this word)?

It's normal in Brazil when you have tickets steps, I'm gonna try to explain:

For the premmium area you have 3000 tickets

1000 of them costs 500 reais…when this 1000 tickets are sold out, they go to the second crowd and sell more 1000 tickets by 600 reais and etc.

Today we're still in the SECOND CROWD, when in 2010 it was sold out!

Could you understand? My explanation was not very good, I know

[Chewbacca]

Lol $300, these promoters got to pay for the completion of the world cup stadiums some how

No need to. The taxes already sucks us all dry in this country. Even though it's never enough as they keep sucking everybody.

If the stadiums are not complete yet, it is because the current government can't run a country properly, not because there are not enough funds for it. In fact, we, brazilians, probably paid for this cup 3 times already.

[Nosaj Thing]

There is one more thing:

In 2010 the premmium tickets were sold out in the first week (the half prices tickets, because students pay a half here). Today, I saw the website and we're still in the second crowd (can I say this word)?

It's normal in Brazil when you have tickets steps, I'm gonna try to explain:

For the premmium area you have 3000 tickets

1000 of them costs 500 reais…when this 1000 tickets are sold out, they go to the second crowd and sell more 1000 tickets by 600 reais and etc.

Today we're still in the SECOND CROWD, when in 2010 it was sold out!

Could you understand? My explanation was not very good, I know

I think it's clear what you wanted to say. Thanks for sharing the information!

By the way, welcome to the forum!

[alfierose]

Hi Felipe, welcome to the forum. Your English is very good.

[gnrkoncerti]

in 2010 show was almost soldout.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/photos/live/958689/hot-tours-metallica-guns-n-roses-coldplay

[ZoSoRose]

"I told them to put GN'R first on the bill, and the puppet show after!"

Maybe they should perform a jazz odyssey?

[UK SUBS]

Guys, I'm sorry, I can't read all the posts here but I read some of them and I think I have to explain some points:

(First, I have a page on facebook called Axl Rose Fã Clube and a web site www.axlrosefaclube.com, so if the concerts here in Brazil are good, it will be good for me too. I don't want to see a terrible audience, but sometimes I think that the band would like if it happens, because they're doing everything to make it happen! (and the brazilian companies too)

1-If you don't live in Brazil you probably have not seen the media talking about the concert in Rock in Rio…imagine someone talking about a murder or a pedophile, it was like this! So, if you don't follow the band news to know that that this show was a exception, Guns N' Roses is dead for you, because no one wants to pay 300 reais to see that terrible voice! (and the majority people don't see every single shows on Chinese Democracy tour to know that Axl sometimes sings very well!

2-It's not usual in Brazil have to be over than 16 years to see concerts… Usually if you are 14 you can go without your parents, or with a autorization note. Without your parents, IN SÃO PAULO (just here), you can go just if you're 18 years old…serious, it's ridiculous in Brazil, but this point is not GNR fault!

3-If in 2010 the concert was not crowded, why this year people would like to go? What happend between 2010 and 2014 to make people pay 300 reais and go there to see the band? There is new songs? NO…There is a good advertise? NO…The media here is reporting good thing about Axl? NOOO…So, why i would have to believe that this concert will be crowded?

I have no reasons to think good things…

I don't want to see a "empty audience", even if it would be better to see the show…but dude, I'm going to a rock n' roll concert, I want to see crazy people jumping and singing like ACDC on River Plate Stadium, and not a pussy guys like Bon Jovi!

I'm hopping I'm wrong

(sorry about my English)

Awesome first post!

Your English is very good my friend

[Damn_Smooth]

Can anyone really feel any sympathy for Guns if this flops? $300 tickets? Seriously? This is more of a stupidity test for South Americans than anything. I hope they pass and only the dumbest of the dumb show up.

[Felipe Barbieri]

Thanks guys…

Just to remember, when ACDC came here in 2009 our 2010, I don't remember, the tickets were sold out in a couple hours!

Just compare!

[Nosaj Thing]

in 2010 show was almost soldout.

http://www.billboard.com/articles/photos/live/958689/hot-tours-metallica-guns-n-roses-coldplay

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the 2010 dates the first dates in Brazil since 1992 (aside from Rock In Rio 2001)?