Pickup Artists

[DieselDaisy]

The whole thing simply sounds, too premeditated and cynical. The amount of thought that goes into this is quite shocking.

[magisme]

The whole thing simply sounds, too premeditated and cynical. The amount of thought that goes into this is quite shocking.

They literally think of it as a science where they "field test" different tactics and report and analyze results.

I think there's a lot of cynicism to much of it, and it's certainly incredibly premeditated for the newcomer, but I think there is value to it as well, and I think the fact that so many men of all ages are falling all over this stuff speaks to larger societal issues that we'd do better not to simply sweep under the rug.

[DieselDaisy]

Very, empirical, then. There also seems to be an assumption that humanity acts with a pre-programmed set of habits. It is actually rather, Age of Reason haha

[SoulMonster]

As I said, nothing wrong with getting advice on how to pick up girls. But what is a bit almost disturbing to me is the language and expressions used like "being unapologetic about ones sexuality" (and many other which I can't be bothered to look up now). Whenever I failed to pick up a girl I never felt it was because I was "apologetic about my sexuality", or not "man enough", or "too nice" or whatever they say. It was because I wasn't good-looking enough, or because I wasn't witty enough, or because we didn't share interests, or because I wasn't assertive enough, or confident enough, etc. That's the world I have been living in, not a world when men feel they have to apologize for their sexuality. And it goes the other way around, too, when I wasn't interested in girls hitting on me it was for the same reasons, nothing else. And during my dry spells I never felt bitter about it, no resentment towards girls, which I seem to pick up from people fronting "The Game", it's like "now you have a weapon to fight back against all the fucking women who ever scorned you", and that sentimentality -- if it really exists and isn't hopelessly exaggerated from my side -- is sort of disconcerting.

Dating is a game, a game of numbers, and you just have to be out there and meet as many as possible. Sooner or later someone will come along where there is a mutual attraction based on a complex pattern of compatible traits, and that's it. Sure, you can increase the probability of this happening by bettering yourself -- and we should always try to improve ourselves in various ways, it is never too late to become a better person -- but I just don't get suggestions of warfare between the sexes, the resentment that some guys seem to harbour and cynicism of playing a character that isn't you to score with girls.

And since I might already be on quite a tangent here in my analysis of the book, I might as well risk making a complete fool of myself by wondering if the same bitterness that some "players of the game" express in their effort to guile women into sleeping with them isn't the source for anonymous guys spewing hate towards women in newspapers columns and discussions fields, something which have become very common here in Norway. The typical message is that feminism has gone too far and reduced men to pathetic pseudo-women and that it is now time to take the power back from women. Basically to restore old-time patriarchal society. I see some of the same sort of message concealed in what some guys who advocate The Game is saying. I suppose it comes from men who are confused about what it is to be men today and feel that today's society has bereft them of any chances of scoring with girls.

[magisme]

If you don't think "sexual harassment" culture has had the side effect of making men insecure and apologetic about their sexuality, then we're just not speaking the same language.

Bitterness? Warfare between the sexes? You're the only one talking about those things, SM.

[DieselDaisy]

Old world gentleman-like manners are gone because of it - or so it seems. Blokes do not give up their seat now because, they think the girl might be a ''man-hating bar-burning Lesbo feminist'' and thus, ''offended''. So blokes just do not bother now. It is easier to be thought of as (at best) 'apathetic’ or 'lazy', at worst, 'rude or un-chivalrous', than, to be accused of being a 'outdated misogynist Victorian dinosaur'. The nightmare scenario is, being faced with some, hatchet-faced feminist ranting about her 'uman rights' being 'infringed'.

I must point out however that this is frequently man’s perception - we often have it in the back of our heads. It is not always the reality. I personally ignore all of that on a daily basis; I always seem to be helping women with suitcases and things and never once has it been perceived as an insult. Most women like, good manners. (You know who had gentlemanlike manners - and it might surprise some people? Jimi Hendrix. Whenever a lady stepped into the room, Jimi would always stand up.)

What is this got to do with man's dating habits? It is sort of the crux of the problem really as, gentlemanlike manners acted like a social valve between the sexes, as well as offering incidents of social interaction. As these manners have generally collapsed, men just do not know how to behave. You have this boorish 'sexualised' culture, the women becoming 'ladettes', the men rejecting gentlemanlike custom, so, some try to go to that extreme and get drunk and try and pull a date by saying, 'get your tits out luv'. Some however just buckle though timidity, whereas manners would have equipped them with the tools to interact. Throw on top of that dilemma a load of revolting internet porn, which surely distorts man's perception of femininity through regular exposure, and you have massive problems betwixt, the two sexes.

[TeeJay410]

Frankly this whole premise is pretty pathetic and borderline offensive. It's a guidebook in how to navigate male entitlement. If you do this, she should do this. If she doesn't sleep with you, it's obviously because you did something wrong, because all women want to sleep with men. That sort of entitlement is not a healthy way to interact with other human beings.

Also the whole thing about there being no such thing as a nice guy is pretty cynical about men, and says more about the pick up community than the nice guys.

Edited July 17, 2014 by TeeJay410

[Dazey]

Picking up women is easy.

Go to a party and have drinks.

Don't be hideously unattractive.

Talk to people.

Done.

[WFA]

Picking up women is easy.

Go to a party and have drinks.

Don't be hideously unattractive.

Talk to people.

Done.

have you put this in the mccoy thread?

[Dazey]

Picking up women is easy.

Go to a party and have drinks.

Don't be hideously unattractive.

Talk to people.

Done.

have you put this in the mccoy thread?

Nope. See points 1 through 3.

[estrangedtwat]

Frankly this whole premise is pretty pathetic and borderline offensive. It's a guidebook in how to navigate male entitlement. If you do this, she should do this. If she doesn't sleep with you, it's obviously because you did something wrong, because all women want to sleep with men. That sort of entitlement is not a healthy way to interact with other human beings.

Also the whole thing about there being no such thing as a nice guy is pretty cynical about men, and says more about the pick up community than the nice guys.

Fuck you cunt. You're a pretty-boy. You've never struggled a moment in your life......not even once, cunt. Not...even...once.

You could never understand. Not ever. Not even for a micro-second......so just fuck right off.....this isn't about you.

[SoulMonster]

If you don't think "sexual harassment" culture has had the side effect of making men insecure and apologetic about their sexuality, then we're just not speaking the same language.

I wasn't even aware we are living in a "sexual harassment" culture, unless you mean that we live in a time where we actually have laws against sexual harassment. I do see people who are insecure about their role as men in today's society, though, but in my opinion that stems from the fact that the role of the man isn't as rigid and precisely defined today as it was, say, in the 50s. It might seem paradoxical, but with this loosening of what it means to be a man, some men feel insecure and don't really know what they need to do and how they are to behave. Whereas in reality this breakdown of the role of man means more freedom and the liberty for every man, regardless of they are as men, to succeed in the dating game, because they are allowed to deviate from the traditional role and women are allowed to be attracted them. I don't know if this makes sense, still typing really fast in-between chores.

Bitterness? Warfare between the sexes? You're the only one talking about those things, SM.

I was trying to talk about a sentiment I seem to get from some of the people talking about The Game and try to see if it makes sense to tie it in with a general anti-feminism thing that is going on nowadays among some groups of men.

[The Glow Inc.]

Well.

We are a generation of men raised by TV and I think it did a lot of damage.

This is where the creepy sense of entitlement comes from : from applying what was learned on TV and not understanding why being overly nice and polite, showing up with flowers on the first date, begging your ex for forgiveness etc doesn't work.

[TeeJay410]

Frankly this whole premise is pretty pathetic and borderline offensive. It's a guidebook in how to navigate male entitlement. If you do this, she should do this. If she doesn't sleep with you, it's obviously because you did something wrong, because all women want to sleep with men. That sort of entitlement is not a healthy way to interact with other human beings.

Also the whole thing about there being no such thing as a nice guy is pretty cynical about men, and says more about the pick up community than the nice guys.

Fuck you cunt. You're a pretty-boy. You've never struggled a moment in your life......not even once, cunt. Not...even...once.

You could never understand. Not ever. Not even for a micro-second......so just fuck right off.....this isn't about you.

Awh shucks Edited July 17, 2014 by TeeJay410

[downzy]

I think a lot of people who look at the pickup culture from the outside, and also many who operate within it, assume that it's a form of manipulation; it's a means of getting what one thinks is his God-given right. And I think it's safe to judge it from the perspective if that's all it was.

But understand, we still live in a patriarchal society where men are still expected to initiate and pursue during courtship. One point Strauss's book reiterates is that when it comes right down to it, it's the woman's choice whether she will accept a men as a mate or not. And this goes back to basic biology. The costs of mating - pregnancy, social status, reputation, etc. - weigh far heavier on women than they do on men. And some men just aren't very good at the attraction phase. Some of these men are very good looking, but they still can't navigate their way into a woman's acceptance.

Also understand that proper pickup involves self-improvement. Strauss talks a lot about this in his book. If you want to attract more women, you need to be more attractive. That means getting in better shape, learning more hobbies, taking an active interest in life. Because at the end of the day, the women worth pursing aren't those who only care about how much money you have in your bank account, but what are you doing to make yourself better. The more things a guy finds interesting, the more chance a girl will find that guy interesting. You don't have to have achieved your goals, but you need to be working on them.

If it was just about looks, money, and personality, then how is that we see so many attractive and fun girls with assholes who live with their parents? Sure, they may not be with them for long, which tells you something, but they were at least able to attract the girl in the first place. As a guy, attraction gets you in the door, but it's a difficult door to get through for many guys. So I don't begrudge men for trying to improve themselves in that respect. What they choose to do once they've become attractive to a particular woman is on them, but it shouldn't necessarily impugn the entire community. For many men, they've lost hope or don't think they deserve to be with an nice girl they find attractive. Seeking out ways to repair that psychological damage shouldn't be frowned upon.

[magisme]

Frankly this whole premise is pretty pathetic and borderline offensive. It's a guidebook in how to navigate male entitlement. If you do this, she should do this. If she doesn't sleep with you, it's obviously because you did something wrong, because all women want to sleep with men. That sort of entitlement is not a healthy way to interact with other human beings.

Also the whole thing about there being no such thing as a nice guy is pretty cynical about men, and says more about the pick up community than the nice guys.

I usually think you're a terrific poster, so I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but you've completely missed the boat here and shown that you have no familiarity with the topic at hand. Maybe that's to your credit.

[TeeJay410]

Frankly this whole premise is pretty pathetic and borderline offensive. It's a guidebook in how to navigate male entitlement. If you do this, she should do this. If she doesn't sleep with you, it's obviously because you did something wrong, because all women want to sleep with men. That sort of entitlement is not a healthy way to interact with other human beings.

Also the whole thing about there being no such thing as a nice guy is pretty cynical about men, and says more about the pick up community than the nice guys.

I usually think you're a terrific poster, so I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but you've completely missed the boat here and shown that you have no familiarity with the topic at hand. Maybe that's to your credit.

Well if there ever were a way to disagree with me and me be okay with it, this flattery was a good tactic! Use it on women!

[magisme]

Frankly this whole premise is pretty pathetic and borderline offensive. It's a guidebook in how to navigate male entitlement. If you do this, she should do this. If she doesn't sleep with you, it's obviously because you did something wrong, because all women want to sleep with men. That sort of entitlement is not a healthy way to interact with other human beings.

Also the whole thing about there being no such thing as a nice guy is pretty cynical about men, and says more about the pick up community than the nice guys.

I usually think you're a terrific poster, so I'm not trying to pick a fight with you, but you've completely missed the boat here and shown that you have no familiarity with the topic at hand. Maybe that's to your credit.

Well if there ever were a way to disagree with me and me be okay with it, this flattery was a good tactic! Use it on women!

Who says I don't? It's like the photo negative of the humblebrag.

[magisme]

Which reminds me of a great scene, and for that matter movie, for cracking the code of game and dispelling some of the darker, negative sentiments. In Moonrise Kingdom there's a scene where the girl is telling the boy, who's an orphan, how she sometimes wishes she were an orphan and how she thinks orphans are special and have more interesting lives. Well, kid looks her dead in the eye and says, "I love you, but you have no idea what you're talking about." She responds, "I love you too." Game. And what makes the film so beautiful is how honest the love is. Game needn't be cynical.

[SR_GR]

Old world gentleman-like manners are gone because of it - or so it seems. Blokes do not give up their seat now because, they think the girl might be a ''man-hating bar-burning Lesbo feminist'' and thus, ''offended''. So blokes just do not bother now. It is easier to be thought of as (at best) 'apathetic’ or 'lazy', at worst, 'rude or un-chivalrous', than, to be accused of being a 'outdated misogynist Victorian dinosaur'. The nightmare scenario is, being faced with some, hatchet-faced feminist ranting about her 'uman rights' being 'infringed'.

I must point out however that this is frequently man’s perception - we often have it in the back of our heads. It is not always the reality. I personally ignore all of that on a daily basis; I always seem to be helping women with suitcases and things and never once has it been perceived as an insult. Most women like, good manners. (You know who had gentlemanlike manners - and it might surprise some people? Jimi Hendrix. Whenever a lady stepped into the room, Jimi would always stand up.)

What is this got to do with man's dating habits? It is sort of the crux of the problem really as, gentlemanlike manners acted like a social valve between the sexes, as well as offering incidents of social interaction. As these manners have generally collapsed, men just do not know how to behave. You have this boorish 'sexualised' culture, the women becoming 'ladettes', the men rejecting gentlemanlike custom, so, some try to go to that extreme and get drunk and try and pull a date by saying, 'get your tits out luv'. Some however just buckle though timidity, whereas manners would have equipped them with the tools to interact. Throw on top of that dilemma a load of revolting internet porn, which surely distorts man's perception of femininity through regular exposure, and you have massive problems betwixt, the two sexes.

I really like it when men open the doors and such. Not too many men under 55 do it anymore.

It is always such a surprise that it works almost like an afrodisiac. I do not think men are

not doing it anymore because they worry women might get offended, I would say it has more

to do with growing up as kind of "genderless" equals.

I sometimes wonder how those men are like who have been watching hc porn daily from

the time they were 13 or so. Do they ever learn what it is really all about?

We had at work this really skinny girl, skinnier than models, her face was like a skull with

some skin on. I was quite amazed to see the reaction of some men at the mall to her,

they looked at her like she was someone familiar from porn, staring at her all bone bottom

and such. She has almost no boobs so that was different to silicon porn actresses.

[dalsh327]

It's a subculture not a phenomenon.

In 2014, there's more "hanging out" than dating going on. It's almost like the book is from another era, in a way it was. This was about the people running the PUA forums and finding out about them as much as it was about the system(s) they were developing. Neil thought the book was going to hurt people he had become friends with, but they wound up appreciating him for it because it generated money for their businesses. He even made a nice chunk of change with some of the videos and the other book he wrote about it.

"Negging" - it's just a guy being a sarcastic bitch and using backhanded compliments, but it turned into assholery and putdowns where women would be pissed off and crying. You have to have some charm and a sense of humor to use it effectively.