Chinese Democracy vs. Snakepit 1, Snakepit 2, VR albums and Slash's solo?

[Towelie]

I think some people over rate the hell out of Chinese Democracy on here. It is neither that enjoyable as an album, nor that groundbreaking as an exercise in musical experimentation (adding a bunch of ‘beeps and farts’ to substandard rock fare does not make you, Aphex Twin). Equally, there is nothing that much more profound in a bunch of hokey self-obsessed love ballads, than Myles’ dull lyrical output. Neither of them are Roger Waters or Bobby Dylan here, let's face it? Also, for every dud on a Slash album - and I admit, there are many - there is at least an equivalent dud on Democracy - case in point, Scraped and Shacklers Revenge.

Shacklers Revenge >>>>> every song Slash has done 1996-2014.

Even you cannot believe that, surely? A screechy nu-metal riff combined with probably the worst guitar solo ever written and some garbage lyics from Axl, versus, a near masterpieces like Anastasia!

I'm deadly serious. Anastasia has a great riff, but the actual meat and bones of the song itself is nothing special. Take away the opening riff, which only features on the song a total of two times and you have a fairly plain, generic Slash-by-numbers rock song.

Shacklers is my all time favourite GNR song. I love everything about it, from the psychopathic lyrics, Ron's wacky solo, the tapping guitar at the end, the high pitched whammy pedal squeals... topped off with a driving energy and a chorus which is catchy as fuck. It's far more interesting than Anastasia on just about every level.

[AtariLegend]

Chinese is far from perfect. I'm not too found of Shackler's extended 2nd chorus.Scraped is fine, but isn't on the same level as the other songs and Catchers is a butchering of the original demo. I also think there's a guitarist ot two too many on it, sorry Bumblefoot (I know you're a good person and great guitarist, but your guitar mixed over Tommy's Base wasn't a good idea).

That said, I love almost every every other song on that album. There Was A Time/Madagascar/This I Love/Street of Dreams ect are among my favourites by any artist. Slash's work on the other hand is a bit too hit/miss for me and the hits don't even touch stuff like TWAT. This is a complete landslide for me.

As for the argument about "Lies" ect by someone else in the thread, it's not like "Use Your Illusion" sounded like "Appetite for Destruction" and that was recorded by mostly the same people.

[jmapelian]

I'd take any thing slash did over CD except libertad

[niceguy]

I'm seeing multiple posts like this in this thread.... how is it that you guys are fans of AFD + Lies + UYI, but think CD is better than Slash's post GNR stuff?

Chinese Democracy has top-notch experimental songwriting .

.

Patently false.

[niceguy]

I think some people over rate the hell out of Chinese Democracy on here. It is neither that enjoyable as an album, nor that groundbreaking as an exercise in musical experimentation (adding a bunch of ‘beeps and farts’ to substandard rock fare does not make you, Aphex Twin). Equally, there is nothing that much more profound in a bunch of hokey self-obsessed love ballads, than Myles’ dull lyrical output. Neither of them are Roger Waters or Bobby Dylan here, let's face it? Also, for every dud on a Slash album - and I admit, there are many - there is at least an equivalent dud on Democracy - case in point, Scraped and Shacklers Revenge.

Shacklers Revenge >>>>> every song Slash has done 1996-2014.

Even you cannot believe that, surely? A screechy nu-metal riff combined with probably the worst guitar solo ever written and some garbage lyics from Axl, versus, a near masterpieces like Anastasia!

Listen, I do not 'hate' CD (TWAT and Better are terrific numbers) and I am the first to admit that Slash albums tend to be patchy, but the way people talk here, it is as if CD is The Wall or Pet Sounds. CD, speaking objectively, is actually an incredibly flawed record (which is why it flopped). This debate is not even all about quality. I think some of you feel that by Axl adding (or allowing Pitman to add) beeps and farts to the songs makes CD a, ''far out dude'', ‘’I am so hip and smug’’, experimental niche record - as opposed to Slash's which are ''oh so cheesy''. You lot seem to think CD is Radiohead in otherwords, and Slash’s records are, basically Dokkon. CD is just a bunch of rather basic songs with a load of overdubs piled on-top (as opposed to songs that are built up, from scratch, via electronic).

And listen, it does not get cheesier than This I Love.

Finally, some sense! ChiDem is not radiohead, and only on this forum do I see people boast about how "experimental" ChiDem is.

ChiDem is a childish imitation of actual musical experimentation. Pitman isn't an electronica luminary. Axl isn't pushing the envelopes. ChiDem is so hopelessly, embarrassingly flawed; it takes more than a shit-shred tuneless solo on top of one generic, simple synth pad.

Axl failed abominably, and yes, Slash's work isn't legendary, but seriously, the whole "ChiDem is revolutionary synth electronic rock" is total crap.

[maynard]

Great posts, niceguy. Rhiad is the best example. You start with an ambient intro (that Pitman stole for fucks sake!), you have dozens of guitars doing the same thing, the mindless and soulless solo and the lyrics which consist of "aaah aahh aaah" 50% of the time. That's not complex, that's exactly what it is, a rock n' roll guy trying to sound like NIN. The whole album is like this. Better and TWAT (demo) are great, CITR demo is really good. All the other songs are very bad, making CD one of the worst rock albums of the 2000s. Even worse if you consider, time, money and personnel spent.

[Towelie]

I don't see anyone claiming that ChiDem is wildly experimental or avant garde, so I don't really get why the CD-detractors keep banging on about that, bringing up Radiohead etc (who, for the record, are hugely overrated).

It's just a great fucking rock album. The best rock album of the 00s by a fucking landslide, and I've heard a lot. If you don't share the same sentiments as me about the album then whoopty-fucking-doo for you, but this is my opinion on Chinese Democracy. It's a masterpiece.

Edited July 31, 2014 by Towelie

[maynard]

It's just a bad fucking rock album. The worst rock album of the 00s by a fucking landslide, and I've heard a lot. If you don't share the same sentiments as me about the album then whoopty-fucking-do for you, but this is my opinion on Chinese Democracy. It's far from a masterpiece.

[wasted]

I wouldn't say CD is experimental. It's more retro to me. Retro in the GNR way but also taking on board the 90s influences. There aren't that many bands doing it. There's not many bands I hear Zepp and Stones and Korn and NIN.

Some don't think it works, I think they pulled it off.

Edited July 31, 2014 by wasted

[ManetsBR]

Chinese Democracy, no doubt.

Contraband is the only thing that comes close.

[Gackt]

Patently false.

Substantial trolling or stupidly biased.

Experimental in the sense that it goes outside of a generic rock album, and incorporates elements from other genres into the songwriting to create pieces that stand out and are unique from each other. ChiDem isn't an album that stays in one radio-friendly style throughout to be a safe listen for the extremely casual listener, even tracks like Better are polarizing to some people. Critiquing the guitar work because it isn't a sloppy drunken mess is just retarded.

[Apollo]

I think you guys are just using experimental in different forms.

Overall, the album isn't experimental or ground breaking in any shape or form.

But in terms of Axl Rose and Guns n Roses - he certainly is expanding his style and going outside of his comfort zone. So in that sense, it most certainly is experimental. Shacklers and Scraped are different than anything GnR has ever done. I love Shacklers to death, can't stand Scraped. BUT AT LEAST Axl tried something different. He isn't just rehashing Jungle and SCOM over and over again.

Better, SOD, Catcher, Twat, TIL, Prostitiute, Madagascar, IRS - they are all classic sounding GnR songs. I like that Axl threw in a couple change-ups and experimental type songs. I probably wouldn't like an entire album full of them, but why not throw in 2-3 songs like that on every album.

[wasted]

People tend to focus on certain songs to put a negative spin. Like its all nu metal or whatever. But actually I was surprised how little nu metal there was.

I think there's an influence here and there but it is really a mixture of classic rock and 90s influences. I don't hear too much 80s other than Shacklers and ITW.

It's missing that commercial 80s hard rock element but is a unique blend like other GNR records. Maybe even more so.

[gunsfanoldie]

I'm not going to say I'm right, and I'm probably gonna piss off a lot of people:

But IMO all the talk about Chinese Democracy is nothing more than people making a big deal over the one thing GNR fans have gotten. How can the people here, the seemingly most devoted GNR fans out there, not like the ONE album Axl has put out. I think people really think they can't. So they overanalyze it and listen to it constantly to find the goodness. Its like "no that song doesn't suck, its just 'different'". You can't help but say its not good cause if thats true then GNR, and your fandom, has been a failure. The way I see it is people really feel they have to talk it up when in reality they don't feel that way.

I'm sure there are people that do genuinely like it. I really like over half the album. But I'll never say its a masterpiece and I think many people around here that do say it because its Axl and they don't really mean it. Doesn't have anything to do with Slash. Its just plain not as good of an album as people make it out to be.

IMO

[DieselDaisy]

I am actually in the middle on CD. TWAT, Better and Streets of Dreams are masterpieces. IRS is also good - an iffy lyric or two robbing it of top class. I like Madagascar also, although, I prefer the Rio 3 version. The rest of the album ranges from, average (Sorry, Catcher,) to complete stinky excrement (Shacklers, Scraped, the title track, TIL). If I was reviewing it for Kerrang or some other publication I would give it, 3/5. It is neither as bad as some make out, nor as brilliant as some make out - it is certainly not 'the best album of the 00s'!

Ironically, it is a bit like AL. I will put on AL and only listen to Anastasia and one more song I like whose name I cannot recall. I will put on CD and only listen to TWAT and Better. Basically those two albums are, one, two, three - at a push, song-albums for me.

[ChineseIRS]

Chinese all day.

I hear more classic rock influence of likes of Queen, Elton John and Zeppelin than i do of Nine Inch Nails/industrial. With more of a modern production. I think he held off on the NIN sounding songs in the end, Oh My God being the only song i really hear the influence in. Obviously which wasnt on Chinese.

Still love the the album to this day. The only thing that really hasnt aged well imo is the pointless ambient intros in TWAT and Rhiad and etc, those could have easily been left off and it wouldnt affect the songs in the worse at all.

Edited August 1, 2014 by ChineseIRS

[Terzyo]

Some GnR fans said CD is a masterpice, i think that no GnR fans dont think it, more people like a album when it is a masterpiece, for example i dont like Michael Jackson or The Beatles but im sure that Thriller and White Album are masterpices, everybody know it, other example: my favourite album in the last year is "Tearing down the walls" from HEAT, i love this album but i know that isnt a masterpice.

I think that CD is a good album but if it is a masterpiece, a lot of people (not only GNR fans) avouch it.

[wasted]

The Riad intro grates, it's misplaced. I'd open with an intro but on track 2 it's painful. I'd switch Scraped and Riad but Scraped is a bigger song.

SOD opening vocal used to be chalk board but I've got used to it and listening speakers it's not as harsh. It's kind of a classic Axl vocal, unmistakably Axl.

Other than that it has masterpiece potential. it's on the starting grid to finish as Exile on Tumbleweed Connection. It's the Pulp Fiction of Classic Rock.

[DieselDaisy]

The Riad intro grates, it's misplaced. I'd open with an intro but on track 2 it's painful. I'd switch Scraped and Riad but Scraped is a bigger song.

SOD opening vocal used to be chalk board but I've got used to it and listening speakers it's not as harsh. It's kind of a classic Axl vocal, unmistakably Axl.

Other than that it has masterpiece potential. it's on the starting grid to finish as Exile on Tumbleweed Connection. It's the Pulp Fiction of Classic Rock.

I am speechless that someone would mention Exile in the same company as CD.

[wasted]

The Riad intro grates, it's misplaced. I'd open with an intro but on track 2 it's painful. I'd switch Scraped and Riad but Scraped is a bigger song.

SOD opening vocal used to be chalk board but I've got used to it and listening speakers it's not as harsh. It's kind of a classic Axl vocal, unmistakably Axl.

Other than that it has masterpiece potential. it's on the starting grid to finish as Exile on Tumbleweed Connection. It's the Pulp Fiction of Classic Rock.

I am speechless that someone would mention Exile in the same company as CD.

Of course not literally, or stylistically. I get a similar vibe.

I see similarities in the structure of the album. Chi dem is Rocks off, Shacklers Rip this Joint, then ending Trio of each album. The whole ragged glory feel but it's Axl's Exile but its a more 90s Exile, the scope of material is similar. There's not really a ventilator Blues. But the whole souls Survivor quasi spiritual experience, yes. As an album with potential mythology I think so. Both albums pretty uncommercial but have tracks like Catcher and Tumbling Dice that will be hard to ignore. Both albums have the same spirit of struggle. Swagger under Duress so to speak.

Them Tumbleweed is like a patchwork of tracks recorded at different times. CD has that element, it's taped together but there's still a cohesive narrative to find.

They are both albums I listen to in full and they are like a journey. They open with swagger and then you go through all these different emotions and the last three tracks just take up over the top.

Edited August 3, 2014 by wasted

[DieselDaisy]

The Riad intro grates, it's misplaced. I'd open with an intro but on track 2 it's painful. I'd switch Scraped and Riad but Scraped is a bigger song.

SOD opening vocal used to be chalk board but I've got used to it and listening speakers it's not as harsh. It's kind of a classic Axl vocal, unmistakably Axl.

Other than that it has masterpiece potential. it's on the starting grid to finish as Exile on Tumbleweed Connection. It's the Pulp Fiction of Classic Rock.

I am speechless that someone would mention Exile in the same company as CD.

Of course not literally, or stylistically. I get a similar vibe.

I see similarities in the structure of the album. Chi dem is Rocks off, Shacklers Rip this Joint, then ending Trio of each album. The whole ragged glory feel but it's Axl's Exile but its a more 90s Exile, the scope of material is similar. There's not really a ventilator Blues. But the whole souls Survivor quasi spiritual experience, yes. As an album with potential mythology I think so. Both albums pretty uncommercial but have tracks like Catcher and Tumbling Dice that will be hard to ignore. Both albums have the same spirit of struggle. Swagger under Duress so to speak.

Them Tumbleweed is like a patchwork of tracks recorded at different times. CD has that element, it's taped together but there's still a cohesive narrative to find.

They are both albums I listen to in full and they are like a journey. They open with swagger and then you go through all these different emotions and the last three tracks just take up over the top.

I think you have been taking too many drugs!

[EvH]

Some GnR fans said CD is a masterpice, i think that no GnR fans dont think it, more people like a album when it is a masterpiece, for example i dont like Michael Jackson or The Beatles but im sure that Thriller and White Album are masterpices, everybody know it, other example: my favourite album in the last year is "Tearing down the walls" from HEAT, i love this album but i know that isnt a masterpice.

I think that CD is a good album but if it is a masterpiece, a lot of people (not only GNR fans) avouch it.

Hey man, nice to see some love for HEAT around here ! To me, Adress the Nation was a better album but the latest one is very good too ! :-)

[bacardimayne]

Riad is a great song you fucks. Never understood grouping it in with Scraped. I wish the entire album sounded like Riad.

[foghat43]

I primarily listen to rock music for the sound of the guitars...the vocals, lyrics and the rest of the band are only secondary factors to my listening enjoyment. So for example, I can enjoy listening to the 1st Snakepit album in spite of the cheesy/bad lyrics because I enjoy much of Slash's playing on that album. So...basing my decision on the strength of the guitar playing alone...I would easily choose Snakepit, VR and Slash's solo work over CD...there is really no contest for me. And that's not even to say that Slash is technically better than Bucket or Robin, it is simply to say that I enjoy the guitar playing on Slash's albums overall more than the guitar playing on CD. For me, the three guitar highlights on CD are Robin's solos on Better and TIL, and Bucket's solo on TWAT. Other than that there just isn't that much that impresses me on CD. Now Bucket's solo work is another story...that stuff blows me away...

Vocally and lyrically...I would easily take CD over Slash's stuff...

Edited August 3, 2014 by foghat43

[Caught in a Coma]

I think some people over rate the hell out of Chinese Democracy on here. It is neither that enjoyable as an album, nor that groundbreaking as an exercise in musical experimentation (adding a bunch of beeps and farts to substandard rock fare does not make you, Aphex Twin). Equally, there is nothing that much more profound in a bunch of hokey self-obsessed love ballads, than Myles dull lyrical output. Neither of them are Roger Waters or Bobby Dylan here, let's face it? Also, for every dud on a Slash album - and I admit, there are many - there is at least an equivalent dud on Democracy - case in point, Scraped and Shacklers Revenge.

Shacklers Revenge >>>>> every song Slash has done 1996-2014.

Even you cannot believe that, surely? A screechy nu-metal riff combined with probably the worst guitar solo ever written and some garbage lyics from Axl, versus, a near masterpieces like Anastasia!

Listen, I do not 'hate' CD (TWAT and Better are terrific numbers) and I am the first to admit that Slash albums tend to be patchy, but the way people talk here, it is as if CD is The Wall or Pet Sounds. CD, speaking objectively, is actually an incredibly flawed record (which is why it flopped). This debate is not even all about quality. I think some of you feel that by Axl adding (or allowing Pitman to add) beeps and farts to the songs makes CD a, ''far out dude'', I am so hip and smug, experimental niche record - as opposed to Slash's which are ''oh so cheesy''. You lot seem to think CD is Radiohead in otherwords, and Slashs records are, basically Dokkon. CD is just a bunch of rather basic songs with a load of overdubs piled on-top (as opposed to songs that are built up, from scratch, via electronic).

And listen, it does not get cheesier than This I Love.

Finally, some sense! ChiDem is not radiohead, and only on this forum do I see people boast about how "experimental" ChiDem is.

ChiDem is a childish imitation of actual musical experimentation. Pitman isn't an electronica luminary. Axl isn't pushing the envelopes. ChiDem is so hopelessly, embarrassingly flawed; it takes more than a shit-shred tuneless solo on top of one generic, simple synth pad.

Axl failed abominably, and yes, Slash's work isn't legendary, but seriously, the whole "ChiDem is revolutionary synth electronic rock" is total crap.

The other thing I dont think the band realizes is that we don't listen to gnr for alternative new sounds. We listen for hard rock. Gnr were never a revolutionary band. They just played kickass hard rock. If I want actual experimental music (not the layering on basic rock songs and ballads), I'll listen to an experimental band.