The Scottish Independence Referendum Thread

[The Sandman]

You know you'd still have our monarchy too right?

[UK SUBS]

Can I briefly interrupt this thread to ask you guys to go over to the main section and like my post if you'll be kind enough to support the forum and buy a T!!

Carry on

[Graeme]

You know you'd still have our monarchy too right?

Yes. If you were actually interested in what I had to say, you'd know that I talked about that on the previous page. You can't keep placing the burden of proof on me then not engaging with what I say and continually trying to open new lines of attack.

You still haven't answered my question. Arguments for the Union based on threats aren't going to work, you need to present a positive vision for staying in it, rather than "this is as good as it's going to get, you may as well accept it."

[The Sandman]

Can I briefly interrupt this thread to ask you guys to go over to the main section and like my post if you'll be kind enough to support the forum and buy a T!!

Carry on

UK price and shipping from here?

[ADPT]

looks terrible. why can't the Scots just simmer the fuck down?

I doubt we'd go with that. The Welsh might finally get some representation on there.

As for Scottish independence, I'd rather not. One half of my family's from Scotland. I'm not happy with the idea of the country I was born in being torn up.

[Facekicker]

Could be a new Ireland...

Yeah if they join the Euro they can expect the following:

Everything dictated by Brussels instead of Westminster

Fucked up the arse by the Euro.

Scotland think they might have it bad now....they are about to jump from the frying pan into the fire

It's not a carbon-copy swap of Westminster control to Brussels.

Brussels would not collect all of our tax and then decide how much to give us back in a block grant. Westminster does that.

Brussels would not set the rate of VAT. Westminster does that.

Brussels cannot demand that we keep Trident 30 minutes from Glasgow. Westminster does that.

Brussels could not force us to send soldiers to Iraq or Afghanistan. Westminster did that.

Brussels does not get to tell us how much our state pension should be... guess where does?

I'm sure, like any EU nation, there'll be decisions made in Brussels that we grumble about but are you going to tell me that Italy, Germany etc. are not sovereign nations?

No, but Scotland sure as shit won't be treated like Italy, France or Germany if they join the euro. Ireland got fucking shafted by those boyos to save the euro. The euro is a big club and the big countries set the rules and break them as they see fit. Everyone else can get fucked.

Look at this for example, see anything amiss?

Look I get Scotland's frustrations but I just hope you guys know what you're potentially getting yourselves into should you make the jump.

[Graeme]

Could be a new Ireland...

Yeah if they join the Euro they can expect the following:

Everything dictated by Brussels instead of Westminster

Fucked up the arse by the Euro.

Scotland think they might have it bad now....they are about to jump from the frying pan into the fire

It's not a carbon-copy swap of Westminster control to Brussels.

Brussels would not collect all of our tax and then decide how much to give us back in a block grant. Westminster does that.

Brussels would not set the rate of VAT. Westminster does that.

Brussels cannot demand that we keep Trident 30 minutes from Glasgow. Westminster does that.

Brussels could not force us to send soldiers to Iraq or Afghanistan. Westminster did that.

Brussels does not get to tell us how much our state pension should be... guess where does?

I'm sure, like any EU nation, there'll be decisions made in Brussels that we grumble about but are you going to tell me that Italy, Germany etc. are not sovereign nations?

No, but Scotland sure as shit won't be treated like Italy, France or Germany if they join the euro. Ireland got fucking shafted by those boyos to save the euro. The euro is a big club and the big countries set the rules and break them as they see fit. Everyone else can get fucked.

Look at this for example, see anything amiss?

Look I get Scotland's frustrations but I just hope you guys know what you're potentially getting yourselves into should you make the jump.

I'm sure we will, when the time comes to make that jump. But that is not the jump we make on the 18th of September.

[The Sandman]

Few other things - there's not as much oil as you think there is. And, we'd be entitled to a fair amount if we drew the borders up where they should be. But still, it's been chronically overvalued as is.

Secondly, do you not feel bad that there are literally tens of thousands of people who are entitled to vote who aren't even Scottish? Migrants from the EU, who would probably not want to vote to separate if it meant that there was any chance they might not be able to remain if you didn't stay in the EU - 160k is a lot.

We'd have to tear up your British passports as well - and all the benefits that has. But the fact your future may not even be decided by Scots (how many of them are now expats?) is quite funny.

Not to mention that all your major banks have contingency plans to move down south, to London, most probably, if you split. Royal Bank of... London?

And of course, you want rid of Trident - that actually provides people will jobs. The economy is hard enough: there are too few jobs - and yet you want rid of it? Bizarre.

I oversaw this on Facebook too earlier, quite good reading:

I've been reading the news about the Scottish independence referendum with mounting distress. For the first time since this whole process started it looks likethe UK may cease to exist in just 10 days time. Since I live in London I, along with some 800,000 or so other Scots in the rest of the UK, am unable to vote in what is undoubtedly one of the most important decisions in the past 300 years of our country's history. The Better Together campaign has, to be honest, been too negative. We Scots are proud people and so it doesn't surprise me that being told independence wouldn't work simply makes many people want to vote yes, just to show them! But I think there are many positive reasons why we should stay in the UK, and so here is my best effort to persuade those of you who can vote to say, no thanks on 18th:

In 1707 England was a second-rate country on the fringe of Europe, slowly recovering from nearly two centuries of religious turmoil, civil war and plague. Scotland was in a worse state, economically stagnant and bankrupt after a failed attempt to found a colony in what is now Panama. In a sordid deal involving bullying and bribery the English Government persuaded the Scottish Parliament to vote itself out of existence and unite Scotland with England to form a new nation.
Yet despite that ignominious start, the union forged in 1707 has produced one of the most successful, extraordinary countries the world has ever seen. Great Britain has undoubtedly been great not only in name but also in nature over these past 300 years.

The Scottish Enlightenment produced many of the ideas that would most profoundly shape our world, and together with England, we spread them everywhere. The rule of law, liberal political philosophy, modern economics, science and medicine.

We stopped Napoleon, together.

We ended the slave trade, together.

Slowly and surely, in fits and starts, we founded the first ever liberal democracy, together.

We created the largest Empire the world has ever seen, together.

We spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to every continent, together.

We started the Industrial Revolution, together.

We fought the First World War, together.

When the rest of Europe fell, we stood firm against the Nazis, together.

But the past 300 years we have shared in not just the glories but also the tragedies.

We made all the mistakes of empire, together.

We suffered the huge social costs of industrialisation, the overcrowded towns, pollution and breakneck change, together.

We have recently endured the miseries of financial crisis, together.

We have lived and loved together for 300 years, fought and died together many times. Sometimes we have fought for survival, sometimes for gain, but supremely, and repeatedly in the past century, we have fought for freedom – our own and that of others.

And I do not think this was coincidence. There is something special about this United Kingdom, about this nation of ours which is actually four nations in one. Four proud countries. Four very different countries. Four countries which do an excellent job of knocking the rough corners off each others’ national cultures. Four countries which through healthy and friendly competition keep each other sharp. And yet four countries who, like a family, are tied together deeply and who stick together despite our disagreements and our arguments.

From South Sudan to Iraq, Ukraine to Syria, we live in a world wracked by war and conflict because different peoples disagree with each other about what they believe, which identity they claim, which flag they wish to fly and what kind of society they wish to live in.
So there is something wonderful, something so very refreshing, about a family of very different nations that have nevertheless bound themselves together so successfully as we have.

We have shared much that is good with the rest of the world throughout our 300 year partnership. Let’s find out what more we can share over the next 300 years.

We have been good apart in the past, and I'm sure we could be again in the future. But we're better together. We're great together. We're extraordinary together.

By all means vote no on 18th September because Alex Salmond hasn’t given any proper answers to the big practical questions of currency, EU membership or defence. And he hasn’t.

By all means vote no because you think economically Scotland benefits from being part of the union. Because we do, massively.

But don’t vote no just because you’re worried Scotland would be worse off on our own.

Don’t vote no just because there are lots of problems with the Yes campaign’s proposals.

Vote no because you want to say yes to remaining part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, one of the most successful and remarkable countries human history has ever seen.

[DieselDaisy]

Few other things - there's not as much oil as you think there is. And, we'd be entitled to a fair amount if we drew the borders up where they should be. But still, it's been chronically overvalued as is.

Secondly, do you not feel bad that there are literally tens of thousands of people who are entitled to vote who aren't even Scottish? Migrants from the EU, who would probably not want to vote to separate if it meant that there was any chance they might not be able to remain if you didn't stay in the EU - 160k is a lot.

We'd have to tear up your British passports as well - and all the benefits that has. But the fact your future may not even be decided by Scots (how many of them are now expats?) is quite funny.

Not to mention that all your major banks have contingency plans to move down south, to London, most probably, if you split. Royal Bank of... London?

And of course, you want rid of Trident - that actually provides people will jobs. The economy is hard enough: there are too few jobs - and yet you want rid of it? Bizarre.

I oversaw this on Facebook too earlier, quite good reading:

I've been reading the news about the Scottish independence referendum with mounting distress. For the first time since this whole process started it looks likethe UK may cease to exist in just 10 days time. Since I live in London I, along with some 800,000 or so other Scots in the rest of the UK, am unable to vote in what is undoubtedly one of the most important decisions in the past 300 years of our country's history. The Better Together campaign has, to be honest, been too negative. We Scots are proud people and so it doesn't surprise me that being told independence wouldn't work simply makes many people want to vote yes, just to show them! But I think there are many positive reasons why we should stay in the UK, and so here is my best effort to persuade those of you who can vote to say, no thanks on 18th:

In 1707 England was a second-rate country on the fringe of Europe, slowly recovering from nearly two centuries of religious turmoil, civil war and plague. Scotland was in a worse state, economically stagnant and bankrupt after a failed attempt to found a colony in what is now Panama. In a sordid deal involving bullying and bribery the English Government persuaded the Scottish Parliament to vote itself out of existence and unite Scotland with England to form a new nation.

Yet despite that ignominious start, the union forged in 1707 has produced one of the most successful, extraordinary countries the world has ever seen. Great Britain has undoubtedly been great not only in name but also in nature over these past 300 years.

The Scottish Enlightenment produced many of the ideas that would most profoundly shape our world, and together with England, we spread them everywhere. The rule of law, liberal political philosophy, modern economics, science and medicine.

We stopped Napoleon, together.

We ended the slave trade, together.

Slowly and surely, in fits and starts, we founded the first ever liberal democracy, together.

We created the largest Empire the world has ever seen, together.

We spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to every continent, together.

We started the Industrial Revolution, together.

We fought the First World War, together.

When the rest of Europe fell, we stood firm against the Nazis, together.

But the past 300 years we have shared in not just the glories but also the tragedies.

We made all the mistakes of empire, together.

We suffered the huge social costs of industrialisation, the overcrowded towns, pollution and breakneck change, together.

We have recently endured the miseries of financial crisis, together.

We have lived and loved together for 300 years, fought and died together many times. Sometimes we have fought for survival, sometimes for gain, but supremely, and repeatedly in the past century, we have fought for freedom – our own and that of others.

And I do not think this was coincidence. There is something special about this United Kingdom, about this nation of ours which is actually four nations in one. Four proud countries. Four very different countries. Four countries which do an excellent job of knocking the rough corners off each others’ national cultures. Four countries which through healthy and friendly competition keep each other sharp. And yet four countries who, like a family, are tied together deeply and who stick together despite our disagreements and our arguments.

From South Sudan to Iraq, Ukraine to Syria, we live in a world wracked by war and conflict because different peoples disagree with each other about what they believe, which identity they claim, which flag they wish to fly and what kind of society they wish to live in.

So there is something wonderful, something so very refreshing, about a family of very different nations that have nevertheless bound themselves together so successfully as we have.

We have shared much that is good with the rest of the world throughout our 300 year partnership. Let’s find out what more we can share over the next 300 years.

We have been good apart in the past, and I'm sure we could be again in the future. But we're better together. We're great together. We're extraordinary together.

By all means vote no on 18th September because Alex Salmond hasn’t given any proper answers to the big practical questions of currency, EU membership or defence. And he hasn’t.

By all means vote no because you think economically Scotland benefits from being part of the union. Because we do, massively.

But don’t vote no just because you’re worried Scotland would be worse off on our own.

Don’t vote no just because there are lots of problems with the Yes campaign’s proposals.

Vote no because you want to say yes to remaining part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, one of the most successful and remarkable countries human history has ever seen.

This person makes my type of argument.

There is a debate today on the news on whether not the Queen should get involved.

[Dazey]

Looks like the UK party leaders are fucking bricking it.

[downzy]

Krugman's take on Scotland using the pound if they were to achieve independence:

Scotland and the Euro Omen

Declaring Scotland independent would mean a big disruption of existing economic and financial arrangements. As Simon Wren-Lewis says, the preponderance of professional economic opinion is that this disruption would leave Scotland worse off, but that is a point we can argue. However, that is not the argument the independence movement is making; what they have been telling voters is that there would be no disruption — in particular, that Scots could continue using the pound, and that this would pose no problem.

This is an astonishing claim to make at this point in history. Economists (starting with my late colleague and friend Peter Kenen) have long argued that sharing a currency without fiscal integration is problematic; the creation of the euro put that theory to the test. And the results have been far worse than even the harshest critics of the euro imagined, with euro Europe doing worse at this point than Western Europe did in the 1930s:

And an independent Scotland using the British pound would arguably be in even worse shape. Europe has somewhat stabilized recently thanks to Mario Draghi’s support for debtor countries — but Draghi is able to do this, in large part, because he is answerable to the whole euro area, not just Germany. An independent Scotland would be dependent on the kindness of the Bank of, um, England, with no say whatsoever in that bank’s policy.

I’ve read quite a lot of the independence literature, and it shows no appreciation for the dangers involved. What Scottish voters should do is look hard at the experience, just across the North Sea, of divorcing currency from statehood; it’s not encouraging.

[Graeme]

The Sandman, on 09 Sept 2014 - 11:40 AM, said:

Few other things - there's not as much oil as you think there is. And, we'd be entitled to a fair amount if we drew the borders up where they should be. But still, it's been chronically overvalued as is.

Secondly, do you not feel bad that there are literally tens of thousands of people who are entitled to vote who aren't even Scottish? Migrants from the EU, who would probably not want to vote to separate if it meant that there was any chance they might not be able to remain if you didn't stay in the EU - 160k is a lot.

We'd have to tear up your British passports as well - and all the benefits that has. But the fact your future may not even be decided by Scots (how many of them are now expats?) is quite funny.

Not to mention that all your major banks have contingency plans to move down south, to London, most probably, if you split. Royal Bank of... London?

And of course, you want rid of Trident - that actually provides people will jobs. The economy is hard enough: there are too few jobs - and yet you want rid of it? Bizarre.

I oversaw this on Facebook too earlier, quite good reading:

Quote

I've been reading the news about the Scottish independence referendum with mounting distress. For the first time since this whole process started it looks likethe UK may cease to exist in just 10 days time. Since I live in London I, along with some 800,000 or so other Scots in the rest of the UK, am unable to vote in what is undoubtedly one of the most important decisions in the past 300 years of our country's history. The Better Together campaign has, to be honest, been too negative. We Scots are proud people and so it doesn't surprise me that being told independence wouldn't work simply makes many people want to vote yes, just to show them! But I think there are many positive reasons why we should stay in the UK, and so here is my best effort to persuade those of you who can vote to say, no thanks on 18th:

In 1707 England was a second-rate country on the fringe of Europe, slowly recovering from nearly two centuries of religious turmoil, civil war and plague. Scotland was in a worse state, economically stagnant and bankrupt after a failed attempt to found a colony in what is now Panama. In a sordid deal involving bullying and bribery the English Government persuaded the Scottish Parliament to vote itself out of existence and unite Scotland with England to form a new nation.

Yet despite that ignominious start, the union forged in 1707 has produced one of the most successful, extraordinary countries the world has ever seen. Great Britain has undoubtedly been great not only in name but also in nature over these past 300 years.

The Scottish Enlightenment produced many of the ideas that would most profoundly shape our world, and together with England, we spread them everywhere. The rule of law, liberal political philosophy, modern economics, science and medicine.

We stopped Napoleon, together.

We ended the slave trade, together.

Slowly and surely, in fits and starts, we founded the first ever liberal democracy, together.

We created the largest Empire the world has ever seen, together.

We spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to every continent, together.

We started the Industrial Revolution, together.

We fought the First World War, together.

When the rest of Europe fell, we stood firm against the Nazis, together.

But the past 300 years we have shared in not just the glories but also the tragedies.

We made all the mistakes of empire, together.

We suffered the huge social costs of industrialisation, the overcrowded towns, pollution and breakneck change, together.

We have recently endured the miseries of financial crisis, together.

We have lived and loved together for 300 years, fought and died together many times. Sometimes we have fought for survival, sometimes for gain, but supremely, and repeatedly in the past century, we have fought for freedom – our own and that of others.

And I do not think this was coincidence. There is something special about this United Kingdom, about this nation of ours which is actually four nations in one. Four proud countries. Four very different countries. Four countries which do an excellent job of knocking the rough corners off each others’ national cultures. Four countries which through healthy and friendly competition keep each other sharp. And yet four countries who, like a family, are tied together deeply and who stick together despite our disagreements and our arguments.

From South Sudan to Iraq, Ukraine to Syria, we live in a world wracked by war and conflict because different peoples disagree with each other about what they believe, which identity they claim, which flag they wish to fly and what kind of society they wish to live in.

So there is something wonderful, something so very refreshing, about a family of very different nations that have nevertheless bound themselves together so successfully as we have.

We have shared much that is good with the rest of the world throughout our 300 year partnership. Let’s find out what more we can share over the next 300 years.

We have been good apart in the past, and I'm sure we could be again in the future. But we're better together. We're great together. We're extraordinary together.

By all means vote no on 18th September because Alex Salmond hasn’t given any proper answers to the big practical questions of currency, EU membership or defence. And he hasn’t.

By all means vote no because you think economically Scotland benefits from being part of the union. Because we do, massively.

But don’t vote no just because you’re worried Scotland would be worse off on our own.

Don’t vote no just because there are lots of problems with the Yes campaign’s proposals.

Vote no because you want to say yes to remaining part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, one of the most successful and remarkable countries human history has ever seen.

For fuck's sake, Sandy. You're still bringing up points I addressed two pages ago as though they're fresh lines of attack. While providing no evidence you read what I said. If you quoted my arguments and explained why you disagreed with them then fair enough, but this is terrible debating:

The referendum is being held in the jurisdiction of the Scottish Parliament, i.e. within the borders of Scotland, where there is a democratic mandate for it to be held. All people of legal voting age living in Scotland at the time of the referendum are entitled to vote. That's it. It's manageable and sensible. Can you imagine the amount of work that would need done to exclude people of non-Scots heritage or to find people of Scots heritage living in other parts of the UK/world? How would you define it? It sucks that people who care about Scotland don't get a say on its future both on the no and yes sides, but the referendum is being carried out under the most realistic framework, that the decisions regarding Scotland's future are best made by the people in Scotland.

I actually wrote the majority of that several pages ago, which goes to show how much you actually care about what I have to say.

Trident? Talked about exactly the amount of job losses weighed up against the potential benefits, two pages ago.

No British Passport? I'll live.

Banks? Google the "Kitchenware Revolution" in Iceland. If they choose to leave, it's not the end of the world and may actually speed up our transition away from the rapacious, unregulated banking class we currently endure and towards a more equitable economic model.

Do you think you're winning this argument by wilfully ignoring what I have to say and -STILL- refusing to answer my questions?

Edited September 9, 2014 by Graeme

[GivenToFly]

There is a democratic deficit stemming from a situation where a party interested in a result is the one organising the referendum. Of course they would choose residents over nationals (although to be fair it's also much more practical). A majority of Scots living outside of Scotland are elsewhere in the UK and they would probably vote overwhelmingly in favour of union. At the same time non-nationals resident in Scotland probably include many EU (or even non-EU) immigrants who might prefer a friendly Scotland to a hostile UK.

[UK SUBS]

I hope it's a no vote.

I've got a Union Jack door mat; and it's going to be murder scrubbing the blue out of it

Side note; I drove through Cowdenbeath today -- O H. M Y. G O D. If the people of Cowdenbeath vote it'll end up a yes because fuck me; their lives can't get much worse*

*no disrespect meant -- well ok, a little but....

[Facekicker]

Krugman's take on Scotland using the pound if they were to achieve independence:

Scotland and the Euro Omen

Declaring Scotland independent would mean a big disruption of existing economic and financial arrangements. As Simon Wren-Lewis says, the preponderance of professional economic opinion is that this disruption would leave Scotland worse off, but that is a point we can argue. However, that is not the argument the independence movement is making; what they have been telling voters is that there would be no disruption — in particular, that Scots could continue using the pound, and that this would pose no problem.

This is an astonishing claim to make at this point in history. Economists (starting with my late colleague and friend Peter Kenen) have long argued that sharing a currency without fiscal integration is problematic; the creation of the euro put that theory to the test. And the results have been far worse than even the harshest critics of the euro imagined, with euro Europe doing worse at this point than Western Europe did in the 1930s:

And an independent Scotland using the British pound would arguably be in even worse shape. Europe has somewhat stabilized recently thanks to Mario Draghi’s support for debtor countries — but Draghi is able to do this, in large part, because he is answerable to the whole euro area, not just Germany. An independent Scotland would be dependent on the kindness of the Bank of, um, England, with no say whatsoever in that bank’s policy.

I’ve read quite a lot of the independence literature, and it shows no appreciation for the dangers involved. What Scottish voters should do is look hard at the experience, just across the North Sea, of divorcing currency from statehood; it’s not encouraging.

The bit about Draghi being answerable to the whole euro area, not just Germany made me

[DieselDaisy]

For me, debating this with Graeme is a bit like, watching a tennis player and a football player playing against each other in some sort of strange amalgam of the two sports. A tennis player will wonder why the opposing player is kicking the ball, while, the footballer will wonder why the tennis player has walked out with a bat and is using the bat to wack the ball around. Both want to win as much as the other and are confident in their respective abilities, however, neither can quite understand, nor agree, with the methods the other player is using to win and the game merely results in a stalemate.

That is me and Graeme.

I just do not understand why food banks are entering a debate about national sovereignty. Graeme no doubt does not understand why history and the military are entering my argument. It is not even that I disagree so much about Graeme's points, merely that I do not see them as relevant to this topic.

That said, I am not a socialist, nor particularly left-leaning.

[The Sandman]

For fuck's sake, Sandy. You're still bringing up points I addressed two pages ago as though they're fresh lines of attack. While providing no evidence you read what I said. If you quoted my arguments and explained why you disagreed with them then fair enough, but this is terrible debating:

Sorry mate, you know I don't care enough and I'm just enjoying getting a rise out of you. I'm never going to convince you that you're wrong (even if you are) - and hope that if/when it all falls flat on it's face, you'll come back and say it!

But, by then - you probably will have moved here for work anyway...

Poverty for all!

[Carburetta]

Incedentally, great first post Diesel.

Vote no.

[st0n3r]

I pretty much never agree with socialist Graeme, but I do agree with Scottish Graeme. Here in Flanders, we look forward to a positive outcome in Scotland and in Catalonia.

Beautiful video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbW_AT64m8E

[Crash Diet]

Finally some interesting topic
I don't have a strong opinion on this one, the pro's and cons are interesting and i for one learn a lot from this situation from this thread

[DieselDaisy]

In a nutshell, the world according to the SNP...

- Who cares what currency we have in five years? RBS, moving to London? Who cares? It could be the Pound; it could be the 'Scotty'; it could be the Euro? Nobody knows but nobody cares!

- History and nationalism do not matter. Everyone who talks about history is a member of the BNP - or worse - English. Let's leave our borders open, remove our only nuclear defense against Russia and break up our 300 year old regiments.

- All celebrities are English BNP members. JK Rowling, the majority of the Scottish footballing establishment, Billy Connelly? All 'English' idiots. No one who has appeared on television deserves an opinion in fact.

- Scandinavia rules. Let's join them.

[wasted]

Scotland will be Russia very soon.

[The Sandman]

I'm loving that everyone will be moving out of Scotland, including RBS, if you vote Yes.

And everyone who remains... will up prices as it's more expensive to trade in a foreign country.

But then you'll probably have to be paying people in beans as you won't have a currency.

"A new opinion poll gives the Unionist campaign a six-point lead as the Bank of England's Governor warns a separate Scotland faces billions of pounds of spending cuts or tax rises.

The survey was published in the Daily Record as Mr Salmond endured his own "Black Wednesday", with some of Scotland's biggest companies warning against the dangers of separation and the Bank of England indicating he faces a £145 billion hole in his plans to keep the pound.

It emerged that both Lloyds and RBS have contingency plans to leave Scotland in the event of a Yes vote. Lloyds has confirmed that it will move its headquarters to London, while Treasury sources said that RBS have “similar plans”. Standard Life, the pensions giant, revealed it is planning to move part of its business to England to protect its customers in the event of an independence vote, while BP and Shell backed expert predictions that oil will have all but run out by 2050. It also emerged nearly $2 billion (£1.24 billion) has flowed out of UK equity funds in the last two months amid heightened uncertainty over what separation would mean for the economy."

[Conor]

I'm voting no purely on the basis of Yes Campaigners being annoying as fuck. I want to tell one of them that I'm effectively cancelling out their vote.

[UK SUBS]

I hope it's no, I really do

Mind, we'll get blamed and the Scots will hate us even more than before!! There's no happy ending and around 2 million pissed off scots regardless of the outcome. Happy days then

I'm loving that everyone will be moving out of Scotland, including RBS, if you vote Yes. And everyone who remains... will up prices as it's more expensive to trade in a foreign country. But then you'll probably have to be paying people in beans as you won't have a currency."A new opinion poll gives the Unionist campaign a six-point lead as the Bank of England's Governor warns a separate Scotland faces billions of pounds of spending cuts or tax rises. The survey was published in the Daily Record as Mr Salmond endured his own "Black Wednesday", with some of Scotland's biggest companies warning against the dangers of separation and the Bank of England indicating he faces a £145 billion hole in his plans to keep the pound. It emerged that both Lloyds and RBS have contingency plans to leave Scotland in the event of a Yes vote. Lloyds has confirmed that it will move its headquarters to London, while Treasury sources said that RBS have “similar plans”. Standard Life, the pensions giant, revealed it is planning to move part of its business to England to protect its customers in the event of an independence vote, while BP and Shell backed expert predictions that oil will have all but run out by 2050. It also emerged nearly $2 billion (£1.24 billion) has flowed out of UK equity funds in the last two months amid heightened uncertainty over what separation would mean for the economy."

URGH I mean that's a face I'd NEVER get tired of slapping

BIG FAT COCK -- he's fucking revolting.