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Ben Affleck on Real Time: Islamaphobia


Dan H.

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I think the whole thing is pathetic, you invent enemies for yourself by way of aggression and then sit millions of miles away from them, heads full of your own processed bullshit going 'oh they're like this and this and this', just fuck off, stop fuckin' bombing them, hows that? I know, complicated innit, especially when you are a bunch of robbing bastards looking to fleece them.

Religion only has something to do with it when they want it too, when you're laying the groundwork for the next multi-million dollar bombing campaign, just fuck off, how difficult is that, just leave em alone. Thats so fuckin' typical of our side of the world, these 'debates' about people that you don't know, don't understand, don't particularly give a shit about and have exactly zero awareness of, just going over your own media bullshit and your own in-house polls and your own line of bullshit just to blag yourself into thinking it's alright to drop bombs on defenceless people.

And oh yeah, when they dare to stand up for themselves 'TERRORIST, TERRORIST, TERRORIST!'

It's Al Qaeda, it's ISIS, it's Hamas...and everybody sits around going 'we're bring democracy to them, wa-hey!', give me a fuckin' break, 'hey, we're here to liberate you...by way shelling' :lol:

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How on earth are ISIS not opportunistic, murderous scum?

Why are they the focus above and beyond others that have done wrong? Why is it that we can hop from one terrorist group to another like a fuckin' flavour of the months...but when it comes to certain countries 'we made a mistake!' and 'uh, we invaded looking for WMD and found jack-fuckin'-shit' or 'we bombed Afghanistan to pieces looking for one man...who happened to be in the next country along, sorry about that...least we got rid of the Taliban for ya...oh wait, no we didn't!' why is that a valid excuse, why is that just passed over and forgiven and forgotten, no punishment, no accountability, no nothing...onto the next bunch of brown people doing fucked up shit, cuz obviously that excuses our particular campaigns of mass murder.

The problem arises when you reckon the entire fuckin' world should be like you...because you say so. Democracy is not 100% noble concept, like 'truth' or something, it's just A way, as flawed as the human beings that created it, just like communism and every other tao out there under the sun, maybe, just MAYBE....the whole fuckin' world doesn't wanna live your way and have the right to pursue it's own way of doing shit.

Edited by Lennie Godber
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In my opinion, Aslan's rather dramatically incredulous tone kind of undermined whatever point he may have had, because he came across as incredibly patronizing. I loved the interview he did on FOX a year back or so when he was promoting Zealot, where he handled himself far better against the idiotic attacks from the FOX anchor, but he came across quite poorly above.

I wonder what Christopher Hitchens would have to say about all this... :lol:

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Two multi-millionaire entertainers chatting about world affairs. No different than watching any two people on this forum debate it.

Just because one is an actor and one is a comedian doesn't mean that they know d*ck or that their opinion is important. Maher is no different than Limbaugh or Maddux. Extremely biased with no critical thought going on, everything he says is agenda based to get ratings.

I'd rather listen to downzy and shades go at it than these two arrogant douches.

Well thanks for the compliment (I think?).

But in all fairness, as someone who routinely blasts others on this forum for debating the person through their personal attacks rather than the points their making, I'm surprised by your post. Why not at least address the issues they're raising as opposed to your incrimination of who they are as people?

Also, before you start lumping all partisans together, understand that they're not all equal. Maddow has a doctorate from Oxford and is a Rhode Scholar. Limbaugh dropped out from his undergraduate program after a year. That doesn't necessarily render everything Limbaugh has to say as invalid (as the old saying goes, a broken clock is right twice a day), but please, let's not falsely equate two individuals with grossly different backgrounds and perspectives.

As for the topic at hand, I think both have some valid points. For me, though I think I side with Affleck on this one. Mahr is a little too quick to generalize all of Islam. If Mahr and Harris limited their argument to the middle east/Africa, where education and civil society is severely lacking, they'd have a stronger case. When there exists a vacuum of civil society and institutions where religion fills the void, chaos, violence and fundamentalism will reign. It happened with Christianity centuries ago (and in some spaces of the world, it still exists). If this conversation were to have happened 400-500 years ago, we'd likely be talking about a different religion.

Also important to consider is that the Western world has been blessed with abundance in a way that the Muslim world has not. Fundamentalism is often a by-product of misery and domination. In these desolate territories, Islam is often unfortunately used as the vehicle by which the resulting anger, hate and fear gets channeled. Harris quotes one poll of British Muslims, but how many of those polled are from several generations of landed immigrants/nationals? My guess is that a majority of those polled were likely new to the U.K.

Ill add only this: we in the west have been blessed with abundance often at the expense of much of the Muslim world for centuries...be it colonization , reaping profit at any cost even if it reqquired war and genocide to attain it. The muslim world has attained affluence and population to a degree where they are no longer going to take a back seat to the way things have always been. There in lies the source of conflict... fundamentalism also breeds misery and domination... and the east west clash is gearing up for all out war.

I find it amazing that often the very same people in the US that are crying outrage and calling for war on Muslim attrocities forget , and do so very easily that the US and its founding doctrines based on manifest destiny butchered, hung, enslaved, drove off murdered and raped at will the native Americans, the Mexicans and the black populations. Want to talk ISIS? Discuss Sand Creek Massacre with me.

I in no way admire and condone any of this but I am a realist to this degree. There is a side and I am going to have to choose where I stand. History has taught us that NO we are not all going to get along and YES ultimately there is going to come a time when war is going to be the only option left to settle this matter.

i followed this segment.. and again.. celebrity mouthpieces jawing off makes for good sensationalism and garners the attention that to many people in this world give a good god damn about.

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How on earth are ISIS not opportunistic, murderous scum?

Why are they the focus above and beyond others that have done wrong? Why is it that we can hop from one terrorist group to another like a fuckin' flavour of the months...but when it comes to certain countries 'we made a mistake!' and 'uh, we invaded looking for WMD and found jack-fuckin'-shit' or 'we bombed Afghanistan to pieces looking for one man...who happened to be in the next country along, sorry about that...least we got rid of the Taliban for ya...oh wait, no we didn't!' why is that a valid excuse, why is that just passed over and forgiven and forgotten, no punishment, no accountability, no nothing...onto the next bunch of brown people doing fucked up shit, cuz obviously that excuses our particular campaigns of mass murder.

The problem arises when you reckon the entire fuckin' world should be like you...because you say so. Democracy is not 100% noble concept, like 'truth' or something, it's just A way, as flawed as the human beings that created it, just like communism and every other tao out there under the sun, maybe, just MAYBE....the whole fuckin' world doesn't wanna live your way and have the right to pursue it's own way of doing shit.

I hear what you're saying Lenny. I've always thought that. The world doesn't want democracy shoved down it's throat. But ISIS, this is a different animal Lenny. They are cutting off young men's heads for no reason. They are cutting off civilian's heads. They have to be stopped. They aren't people minding they're own business.

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ISIS is basically asking for it. They want to be tested. Not a real Caliphate unless proven.

The historic Caliphates were actually decent rulers. Some were crazy, but there was actually social progress under them. That is what Islam was. Progress. That is why Islam spread so fast. Fighting was actually limited.

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How on earth are ISIS not opportunistic, murderous scum?

Why are they the focus above and beyond others that have done wrong? Why is it that we can hop from one terrorist group to another like a fuckin' flavour of the months...but when it comes to certain countries 'we made a mistake!' and 'uh, we invaded looking for WMD and found jack-fuckin'-shit' or 'we bombed Afghanistan to pieces looking for one man...who happened to be in the next country along, sorry about that...least we got rid of the Taliban for ya...oh wait, no we didn't!' why is that a valid excuse, why is that just passed over and forgiven and forgotten, no punishment, no accountability, no nothing...onto the next bunch of brown people doing fucked up shit, cuz obviously that excuses our particular campaigns of mass murder.

The problem arises when you reckon the entire fuckin' world should be like you...because you say so. Democracy is not 100% noble concept, like 'truth' or something, it's just A way, as flawed as the human beings that created it, just like communism and every other tao out there under the sun, maybe, just MAYBE....the whole fuckin' world doesn't wanna live your way and have the right to pursue it's own way of doing shit.

I hear what you're saying Lenny. I've always thought that. The world doesn't want democracy shoved down it's throat. But ISIS, this is a different animal Lenny. They are cutting off young men's heads for no reason. They are cutting off civilian's heads. They have to be stopped. They aren't people minding they're own business.

I'm not justifying beheading anybody but think about this for a second, reporters, photo journalists etc etc, whether or not they are soldiers or what have you, if you are from a country that was recently waging war on the nation you're in and you're walking the streets, free as you like, it's probably a good idea to be a bit more concious about who you are in relation to them and how they might feel about you.

I mean they ravage a country, turn it upside down and then walk around the place taking pictures like 'I'm a photo-journalist!'. Remember, in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 anyone wearing a turban in America should've probably thought about staying indoors, if I'm not mistaken there were instances of reprisal in the aftermath, it's kinda like that, tensions are high, these guys are engaged in war, it's probably a good idea to find yourself a quite nook to hide in, thats just common sense.

I'm not saying it's right cuz it's not, it's evil but at the same time, maybe exercise a little common sense? They're there to help a lot of em too, thats the worst thing, like fuckin' AIDS workers...but then it goes back to that Apocalypse Now thing, with the babies arms, it's worth considering that perhaps your help is about the biggest insult that can thrown at them.

I've said this before and i don't wanna go on about it because I'm not the point of this topic but it's just like, a lower level parrallel where I was at Baker Street Station a couple of years back and a bunch of guys, clearly pissed start giving me shit, i can't remember exactly what they were saying, something about 'are you Al Qaeda, look at him, i reckon he's got something strapped to him, oi, what you got under your shirt' etc etc etc, i thought I'd try to diffuse the situation, saying something in response to their asking 'are you Al Qaeda?', something like 'i prefer Alfred, thank you' and uh, they didn't really take that well and got a bit threatening so i thought, rather than get my head kicked in, I'd best to fuck off.

And this was me, England born and bred but just for being on the tube and looking like i do i got a bit of stick. And this is in England, not somewhere thats been turned into a warzone, i accept that as a burden i gotta bear based on who i am and what i am and OK, no one took my fuckin' head off but the parrallel is more to do with people having a negative reaction to who they percieve to be the enemy.

Now think about if some middle eastern brown folks country had been bombing the shit out of England...and then next day there's me popping round the corner for a pint of milk, they'd have my arse up a lamppost quicker than you can say Allah U Akbar.

EDIT: I put AIDS workers up there, dickhead :rofl-lol:

Edited by Lennie Godber
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I think all journalists working in Syria and Iraq are very well aware of the danger, even more then you Lenny. Still, there is absolutely no excuse for attacking civilians regardless of how "natural" that response may seem.

Well sometimes with these things its more intelligent to go by how the average human would respond as opposed to how an imaginary kind of enlightened human being SHOULD respond.

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The average human doesn't chop of the heads of innocent journalists and help workers. Only animals do that. And you might argue that when an animal bites you it is your fault for being in their way and not the animal for acting out their nature; I still think they are as responsible for their inhuman acts as everyone else is, crazies excepted. Killing non-combatants in a war is an atrocity and there is simply no way that can even be almost justified. Starting to talk about the journalists should have known better to not be there or that this is just a reflection of base human nature, are just ugly diversions from the fact that what we have here is unjustifiable barbaric crimes.

Edited by SoulMonster
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The average human doesn't chop of the heads of innocent journalists and help workers. Only animals do that. And you might argue that when an animal bites you it is your fault for being in their way and not the animal for acting out their nature; I still think they are as responsible for their inhuman acts as everyone else is, crazies excepted. Killing non-combatants in a war is an atrocity and there is simply no way that can even be almost justified. Starting to talk about the journalists should have known better to not be there or that this is just a reflection of base human nature, are just ugly diversions from the fact that what we have here is unjustifiable barbaric crimes.

OK, first of all how do they know they are not combatants? Spies even? And no, its not animalistic at all, its as human as anything, its vengeance and retribution, these concepts are not of the animal kingdom and whatever, you can sit there and moralise and theorize with this stuff but its something thats probably best asked of someone whoose seen his family blown to bits.

You are purposely de-contextualising it by going 'killing non-combatants', which is telling half the story, that could mean anything...this is more specific, you talk about the average human being and what they would do but we're not talking about average people, we're talking about people whoose lifes are the average persons worst nightmare and it is those nightmarish experiences that inform such behaviour.

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Retribution? Against aid workers? Alan Henning did not kill their families - quite the reverse, he helped with aid parcels! Anyhow the price doing the executions is from Bradford or some other British shit hole. His family probably own a curry house. Do not turn these sick fucks into martyr type freedom fighters. They have warped heads and a philosophy of hate, which by the way is anathema to the true teachings of Islam (as, leading imans have stated). We should send in the SAS and execute Jihadi John.

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I don't deny that a very small large proportion of humans would act out the way those monsters do under those particular conditions, but that doesn't make it any more okay or acceptable or condonable or justifiable. We agree on why they do it (more or less), we agree on the fact that it is a reflection of the many facets of human nature given extraordinary circumstances -- but I can never let this in any way or form be an excuse for barbaric actions.

And even if they seriously believe the journalists and help workers are spies and that they are legit targets in war, it is still inhumane to torture and behead them publicly on the Internet. There is simply no excuse for it. Besides, it's not like the worst barbarians in ISIL are all poor victims who suffer from having lost their families in the warfare in Syria and Iraq and are so simple that they don't know that journalists and help workes are sacred and blah blah blah and buh buh buh - many of them are born and raised in UK, Spain, Scandinavia and other western countries. They are confused kids who travel there for adventure, for lashing out for their own semi-miserable existsnce as neglected minorities without much prospects and for being torn between cultures and generations, and because they have been brainwashed by a barbaric ideology. Again, yes, they have a reson for what they do, and it is a reflection of human nature, but there is still no excuse, the reasons don't hold up and humans are supposed to be able to raise above our petty natures. Not an iota of the responsibility of what is happening should be levered on the journalists or help workers. Not an iota.

Edited by SoulMonster
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