Jump to content

Healthcare


downzy

Recommended Posts

Since this topic often bleeds into other threads, I figured I might as well start a thread and have all conversations relating to healthcare here. This way it will save those who have no interest in discussing the topic from the debates that often clog other threads.

To get it started, I came across this audio clip of a Canadian doctor who testified before a U.S. Senate hearing on single-payer healthcare systems. I don't have the whole clip, and unfortunately it's only audio (it's only two minutes in length), but found it pretty interesting:

http://www.cbc.ca/asithappens/popupaudio.html?clipIds=2441587530#

I believe this clip is edited, but not sure. Here's an article that expands on the hearing:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/03/12/toronto-doctor-smacks-down-u-s-senate-question-on-canadian-waitlist-deaths/

Her last point on the current state of the American healthcare system was pretty damning. It would be interesting to figure out how many Canadians die as a result of wait lists. The article I linked to states that "while Canadian wait times studies routinely acknowledge that waiting for care risks death or disability, there appear to be no definitive numbers on Canadian deaths attributed to healthcare backlogs."

Edited by downzy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excuse what is intentionally an ignorant style of comment; but if you don't believe in a public health system, fuck you.


obama

Every country should follow the example of Norway, srs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe you're talking about US healthcare?

Well, why do you guys have to make it so complicated.. look at Germany, Austria, France or Nordic countries.. Direct taxes at healthcare, simple.

Just read Swiss people don't even have to pay for their prescription pharmaceuticals, only a 4 euro fee for the pharmacy..

Pick one, adopt.

Ah fuck it, just pick Norway's model.

the us does have government healthcare taken out of taxes. the problem medicaid and medicare are poorly run, and poorly setup. the poor can get free healthcare, so can the rich it is the people in the middle who cannot afford the insurance or make too much to get the free healthcare that is the problem.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe you're talking about US healthcare?

Well, why do you guys have to make it so complicated.. look at Germany, Austria, France or Nordic countries.. Direct taxes at healthcare, simple.

Just read Swiss people don't even have to pay for their prescription pharmaceuticals, only a 4 euro fee for the pharmacy..

Pick one, adopt.

Ah fuck it, just pick Norway's model.

the us does have government healthcare taken out of taxes. the problem medicaid and medicare are poorly run, and poorly setup. the poor can get free healthcare, so can the rich it is the people in the middle who cannot afford the insurance or make too much to get the free healthcare that is the problem.

One thing I never understood, and still don't, about the U.S. healthcare system is how it ties healthcare benefits to employers. I think Republicans have a legitimate gripe about the ACA as it requires all businesses with 50 full-time employees or more to offer (and subsidize/pay for) health insurance. Tying insurance to employment seems insane to me. It de-incentativizes discretionary hiring as a result of the added costs of requiring benefits.

In Canada, no business is required to offer health insurance since citizens are covered by their governments. This way companies don't need to factor in the costs of employee benefits into their business plans. If you're trying to improve the labor market, it doesn't make much sense to saddle companies with the responsibility of health insurance.

Edited by downzy
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe you're talking about US healthcare?

Well, why do you guys have to make it so complicated.. look at Germany, Austria, France or Nordic countries.. Direct taxes at healthcare, simple.

Just read Swiss people don't even have to pay for their prescription pharmaceuticals, only a 4 euro fee for the pharmacy..

Pick one, adopt.

Ah fuck it, just pick Norway's model, or Germany's, if Norway's is too scary.

Even if there was widespread social choice for that change it would be incredibly difficult to actually go through with it. I mean, we're talking about a country of over three hundred million people. There is already a healthcare system in place, it's flawed but it exists and it's massively complicated, which would make the challenge in shifting everyone into a new, more centralized system extreme to say the least. Look at UK's NHS. They've been working on making all patient records electronic and centralized for years. That's just one thing that needs to be done, just one addition to a system and it takes forever.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excuse what is intentionally an ignorant style of comment; but if you don't believe in a public health system, fuck you.

No, I don't believe in an immoral system where the fruit of one man's labor is taken by force and given to another. I believe that we should be working towards free and voluntary societies, not authoritarian systems based on coercion.

And if you don't think it is a system based on force...stop paying your taxes. You'll find out very quickly that government ("public") programs are based on force via fines, threats of imprisonment, and ultimately lethal force if you resist, etc.

So fuck me (as you say) for believing in freedom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excuse what is intentionally an ignorant style of comment; but if you don't believe in a public health system, fuck you.

obama

Every country should follow the example of Norway, srs.

If you don't do things my country's way, fuck you.

Sounds awfully American of you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Excuse what is intentionally an ignorant style of comment; but if you don't believe in a public health system, fuck you.

No, I don't believe in an immoral system where the fruit of one man's labor is taken by force and given to another. I believe that we should be working towards free and voluntary societies, not authoritarian systems based on coercion.

And if you don't think it is a system based on force...stop paying your taxes. You'll find out very quickly that government ("public") programs are based on force via fines, threats of imprisonment, and ultimately lethal force if you resist, etc.

So fuck me (as you say) for believing in freedom.

Fuck you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A healthcare system isn't something that can be implemented as a new plan and it's done - It passed or it failed. It is a system of continous improvement. I have worked with the Wait Time Alliance she speaks about in the video, and it does look at all subsystems within the system to find ways to make things "leaner", more efficient. And one way is to find ways to give patients options. If the wait time is too long in Toronto for a hip replacement, well, the wait time system shows a shorter wait in Hamilton, so you could go there.

With the baby boom bubble starting to move through and dominate the healthcare system, it is critical that north american health care find better and better ways to provide, as one doctor phrased it to me, managed health and a good death. And one of the big challenges is in managing the lineups. It is inevitable. But with the challenge comes financial resources to find solutions to improvement.

So Obamacare, or any other healthcare system cannot be viewed as a solution, just a starting point. And the weak areas at any given time will be highlighted and big or small solutions found until the weakness is strengthened and the next weak area becomes more evident.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Len B'stard

I don't see why non-Americans care about the American health system, especially when most Americans feeling on the matter is 'mind your own fuckin' business'. And they've got a point too, I mean I care up to the extent of its awful if there were people dying and that but at the same time, if peoples welfare is that big a fuckin' issue for ya, on humanitarian grounds, there's a lot more countries with a lot less functional health services to be concerned about, I mean there are places in this world that lack actual hospitals and facilities and that, Americas set up really ain't that bad relatively speaking.

I mean i care up to the extent of i don't want any poor American to die or nothing, didn't mean anything to sound callous or anything, just mean like...this ain't no third world country where people are dropping like flies or nothing, it's America.

Edited by sugaraylen
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see why non-Americans care about the American health system, especially when most Americans feeling on the matter is 'mind your own fuckin' business'. And they've got a point too, I mean I care up to the extent of its awful if there were people dying and that but at the same time, if peoples welfare is that big a fuckin' issue for ya, on humanitarian grounds, there's a lot more countries with a lot less functional health services to be concerned about, I mean there are places in this world that lack actual hospitals and facilities and that, Americas set up really ain't that bad relatively speaking.

I mean i care up to the extent of i don't want any poor American to die or nothing, didn't mean anything to sound callous or anything, just mean like...this ain't no third world country where people are dropping like flies or nothing, it's America.

Not really sure Americans have a leg to stand on when it comes to citizens of another nation taking an interest in their healthcare system. Change the variables of your first sentence and you'll see what I mean: "I don't see why Americans care about the security of Iraq, especially when most Iraqis feeling on the matter is 'mind your own fucking' business." Sure, the analogy isn't a perfect fit, but I think you get the point I'm driving at.

Personally, I just find it interesting that one of the richest, most powerful nations on the planet have devised a system for treating the health concerns of its citizens that, generally speaking, does such a poor job. When 45,000 people die every year due to lack of access to medical services, I think it justifies any interest from citizens of other countries. Considering America involves itself to the extent it does with affairs of other nations, it's a little hypocritical for them to tell others to mind their own business.

It's perhaps a bit different for Canadians, since we neighbour the U.S. and are constantly monitoring and comparing our own healthcare system with what we see in the States. The economic health of the U.S. should be considered important to Canadians (and other nationalities) since our own economy is dependent on a strong and viable southern neighbour.

Finally, this thread wasn't created with the intended focus on the U.S., but healthcare in general. Forum members can use this thread to talk about their own healthcare system or their experiences in it. I only posted a link to the Canadian doctor's testimony at a U.S. Senate hearing as a way to start the conversation. I encourage others to post other topics as I would be interested in hearing the experiences or opinions of healthcare services in other countries other than Canada or the U.S.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Len B'stard
Not really sure Americans have a leg to stand on when it comes to citizens of another nation taking an interest in their healthcare system. Change the variables of your first sentence and you'll see what I mean: "I don't see why Americans care about the security of Iraq, especially when most Iraqis feeling on the matter is 'mind your own fucking' business." Sure, the analogy isn't a perfect fit, but I think you get the point I'm driving at.

Right but then if you agree that that's a transgression and two wrongs don't make a right then it comes back to what I was saying. Anyway, i was trying to or suggesting you should kill off the discussion or anything, just bring up a point :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not really sure Americans have a leg to stand on when it comes to citizens of another nation taking an interest in their healthcare system. Change the variables of your first sentence and you'll see what I mean: "I don't see why Americans care about the security of Iraq, especially when most Iraqis feeling on the matter is 'mind your own fucking' business." Sure, the analogy isn't a perfect fit, but I think you get the point I'm driving at.

Right but then if you agree that that's a transgression and two wrongs don't make a right then it comes back to what I was saying. Anyway, i was trying to or suggesting you should kill off the discussion or anything, just bring up a point :)

Fair enough, but I actually wasn't trying to suggest that taking an interest in another country's methods for delivering services is a bad thing, as I personally don't really consider America's tendency to involve itself in foreign affairs as necessarily in a pejorative sense (obviously, there are exceptions to both). For me, it's not a matter of two wrongs make a right. The point I was attempting to make was that if any American is going to get upset at a Canadian for taking an interest and forming an opinion on one of their domestic matters, they're being a tad hypocritical considering how much America is involved in the affairs of other countries.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Len, many people regard the US as a "leading light" in the progression of humanity - US leaders have no problem in claiming that they are. They take pride in being the most advanced "free society". When you lay claim to being such a positive geopolitical force, you have to substantiate it. Public health care is the very basic principle of any so called "civilized" society.

The problem is, the US is nowhere near as people orientated as it would like to believe. Its system is governed far more by money than any sense of morality.

Edited by NGOG
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Len B'stard

I weren't talking to no one in particular Is0, was just a general comment I pulled out of my arse based on this forum generally discussing Americas healthcare system a fair bit, as Downzy was saying this thread isn't even specifically about that, was just the title gave rise to the association in my head so i bought it up, as an aside if anything, weren't having a go at no one or anything :)

Len, many people regard the US as a "leading light" in the progression of humanity

Really? I always thought the general consensus was that they were the opposite, in regards to humanitarian issues and such.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I don't believe in an immoral system where the fruit of one man's labor is taken by force and given to another.

What is immoral about a system where one man contributes to another man having the possibility of healthcare? Why shouldn't those who obtain massive paypackets give back to society?

I'm disturbed by your notion that the only purpose of labor is to accumulate money for thyself.

Really? I always thought the general consensus was that they were the opposite, in regards to humanitarian issues and such.

Like the view you have expressed, I would never look to the US as a model of "good society". But the masses tend to regard the US as the superlative free society.

With guns and money amok, they are more uncivilized than free.

Edited by NGOG
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Len B'stard

What I don't understand is, and excuse me for being a bit thick but if you're against the idea of basically taxation with a view to providing an NHS type set up isn't the fundamental principle applicable to other forms of taxation too? I mean why are the others acceptable?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I don't believe in an immoral system where the fruit of one man's labor is taken by force and given to another.

What is immoral about a system where one man contributes to another man having the possibility of healthcare? Why shouldn't those who obtain massive paypackets give back to society?

I'm disturbed by your notion that the only purpose of labor is to accumulate money for thyself.

Hey I never said that!!!!!!!!!!!! Fix the quote :lol:

Foghat said it - there's your clarification. :lol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest Len B'stard

Who thinks like that?

Thats the point of view of the Americans who don't want it right? With the idea being that why should I pay for, i dunno, some guy on welfare to get free healthcare...isn't that sort of the nature of how taxes work though? Like council tax or road tax and all that, why are other forms OK and not this one cuz thats what tax amounts to right, all of us chipping in so everybody gets some butter on their slice, as it were.
Edited by sugaraylen
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have a theory about why healthcare seems to work everywhere else in the world except for the US and I've thought this for quite some time. Now correct me if Im wrong but I think that most places that today have a proper national health system have had it in place prior to any significant private insurance presence coming to the market. The problem with the US is that theyre trying to do it the other way around.

In the UK we have the state NHS but were perfectly entitled to purchase private insurance if we so wish. The major difference and the crux of the whole matter as I see it is that though I actually do also have private insurance I dont HAVE to rely on it. If the insurance companies here start pulling the shit they do in the US then people can quite happily tell them to get fucked as they always have that safety net.

In the US this isn't the case which is why I don't believe we'll ever see a proper system put in place over there. The monopoly holders have too much to lose and the patients are too scared of the consequences during what would undoubtably be a rather painful transition. The insurers will fight tooth and nail to stop any genuine national healthcare program because it will hit their profits plain and simple.

If you have an existing government system then private companies can integrate fairly easily as they know they have that competition from the beginning and have to plan and function as a business accordingly. Also the exisence of private insurers will if anything be of benefit to a national system,it will ease the burden as people with private cover seek treatment elsewhere.

Now if you consider the opposite scenario where an entreched for profit system sees the emergence of something similar to the NHS then all fucking hell will logically break loose. I mean as with any business imagine a competitor entering the market and offering to supply the same product you're selling but to do it for everybody and do it for free?

Edited by Dazey
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...