Wrestling Thread Vol. 3

[username]

11 hours ago, axlslash said:

I absolutely agree - but how do we get there? Presumably Joe winning the Rumble and challenging AJ, but how do we get the title to Rollins with Finn at Mania? Either Roman or Owens will leave the Rumble with the belt. There's only Fastlane for Rae between RR and Mania, and the HHH feud has to pay off somewhere... I just don't see how it happens. 

You could have Finn win the Rumble and have Joe win EC. That takes care of the Smackdown side of it. 

If only they hadn't booked Roman at RR...  Have Seth beat Trips at Fastlane for a title shot and then do Roman / Seth / Finn at Mania? Either that or have Seth win the title off Roman on RAW before Mania. Options are limited.... 

[AtariLegend]

Like Triple H isn't getting the big match at Mania...

One downside of Okada/Omega last week is that people that only checked it out and don't watch NJPW are missing out on matches like this from the same night;

Naito is my favorite heel. He just a few years ago was a generic baby face that some people felt was over pushed. Now he's the star people want pushed... He's the anti-Roman Reigns.

Edited January 13, 2017 by AtariLegend

[Ace Spade]

RIP Superfly (Even if you were a murderer)

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

RIP Superfly.

[Gunner55]

Just announced. Kurt Angle hall of fame 2017. God I hope this isn't to make up for them not wanting him to ever wrestle again. 

[KeyserSoze]

KURT FUCKING ANGLE!!! what the fuckkkkk

[username]

This opens up MANY possibilities for a Mania match! 

I'd love to see another AJ-Angle match. They were epic in TNA. But I'd love Brock-Angle or Cena-Angle a lot as well. 

Angle as a surprise Rumble entrant, him winning and challenging AJ for the belt? 

What about Angle-Taker? Could this option be why Vince changed his mind on Cena-Taker? 

 

[AxlisOld]

I think Brock's got PTSD from the last Angle match. I was there at WrestleMania.

[AtariLegend]

That was like his first match with Angle. They actually had a match in NJPW too before Brock joined UFC.

Don't see Angle winning the Rumble or doing anything significant if they already announced him for the hall of fame and spoiled the surprise already. He's also getting up there in age (which I think people are forgetting) and wasn't in great condition.

The Observer always said Vince didn't take him back, because he didn't want an Olympic Gold Medalist OD-ing and dying while under contract and that was around a decade ago.

[DR DOOM]

Just read that Superfly Jimmy Snuka passed away.

Another legend gone.

[axlslash]

10 hours ago, DR DOOM said:

Just read that Superfly Jimmy Snuka passed away.

Another legend gone.

May his soul find as much rest as Nancy Argentino's. 

I have to say, even a year later, seeing AJ Styles wearing the WWE's Big Belt just below the P1 logo on his shirt is still indescribably surreal. And to have a McMahon stand in the ring and put him over the way Shane did... Two years ago, I'd have said we'd never see the day. No matter what happens with Cena at the Rumble, you have to love how WWE has handled AJ, and the match will be good enough to justify whatever they do. 

[AtariLegend]

They jobbed him out repeatedly for months before Money in The Bank, people already forget him losing cleanly multiple times and the Jericho thing at mania?

They only went with AJ after Ambrose bombed as a champion (again thanks to their own booking).

[axlslash]

1 hour ago, AtariLegend said:

They jobbed him out repeatedly for months before Money in The Bank, people already forget him losing cleanly multiple times and the Jericho thing at mania?

They only went with AJ after Ambrose bombed as a champion (again thanks to their own booking).

They hardly "jobbed him out," they gave him an even feud with Chris Jericho - who happens to be one of the top heels in the company, if you haven't noticed. Yeah I disagreed with Y2J going over at Mania, but Vince likes to deny fans what they want a fair amount of the time, and it was still a solid match. And AJ was on the main card at Mania on a hotly-billed match two or theee months after his debut. Whatever the result in the match (which you'll recall isn't a boba ride contest), that's pretty impressive. Sure I'd have done it differently, but AJ is the hottest commodity in the entire company. 

[Bono]

1 hour ago, axlslash said:

They hardly "jobbed him out," they gave him an even feud with Chris Jericho - who happens to be one of the top heels in the company, if you haven't noticed. Yeah I disagreed with Y2J going over at Mania, but Vince likes to deny fans what they want a fair amount of the time, and it was still a solid match. And AJ was on the main card at Mania on a hotly-billed match two or theee months after his debut. Whatever the result in the match (which you'll recall isn't a boba ride contest), that's pretty impressive. Sure I'd have done it differently, but AJ is the hottest commodity in the entire company. 

Exactly and here we are nearly a year later and Jericho is without question the best thing goin on RAW. My only issue with AJ losing to Jericho at Mania was it seemed to be pointless and makes me wonder why they even did it. It wasn't to bury AJ because he won the 4 way the next night to become #1 contender and it wasn't to push Jericho towards one last title run, which in my opinion is what should've happened and then came full circle with AJ defeating Jericho at Summerslam  for the WWE title.  Either way AJ didn't job. He came up on the short end of a really good feud with multiple matches against arguably a top 5 guy all time. You could argue AJ came out on top of that feud as like I said he did win the 4 way the next night on RAW which included Jericho. 

[AtariLegend]

He jobbed cleanly on TV 4 times before Mania, including twice to Owens. Everyone kicked out of his finisher.

This wasn't some grand plan, Vince looked down on him. They only went to him after Reigns backfired on them forcing the suspension and they had booked Ambrose so badly as Champion (house show numbers) they needed someone else.

The Reigns/AJ program was to give Roman a good match, it wasn't to reward AJ. People still forget when they'd do 6 man tags against "The Club", where Roman would eliminate Anderson/Gallows without making a tag in minutes? Again more than once.

"The Club" was another mess, a placeholder name... because they couldn't use Bullet Club and didn't want Balor to be a heel for "Balor Club".

Edited January 19, 2017 by AtariLegend

[Bono]

he didn't job. he lost to Jericho and lost to Owens who..... wait for it..... happens to be Universal Champion. How the fuck is losing to Owens, even back then a guy who beat Cena, "Jobbing". Everyone kicks out of everyone's finisher. Where have you been the last 10 years? What did you expect AJ to come in and never lose and be made to look head and shoulders above the entire roster and march his way straight to the title and reign for three years? 

[AtariLegend]

Yes, actually. I expected A.J. to win more than he lost for a few months after he debuted and not lose cleanly on TV repeatedly in his first few months. I don't know, maybe I still remember US wrestling pre 2008.

[axlslash]

WWE isn't perfect. They don't protect anyone's business, and they sure as shit don't protect finishers. AJ Styles walked into a company that loves to hot-potato its belts and has held THE belt for almost half of his first year in the company. He was catapulted into the main event scene without so much as a promo in NXT. He's the biggest draw in the company today. If you can still find room in that to complain, you should probably just stick with ROH and PWG and leave the WWE to people who have any hope of enjoying it.

Ill grant you that the Good Brothers have been horrendously mishandled. They came in at the wrong time - they got the same immediate main event treatment as AJ, but WWE had already decided on New Day breaking the record and there was no going back. 

[AtariLegend]

For the record the company only has a few that can be considered draws. Lesnar pops ticket sales (as much as the Internet think he isn't worth the money), TV ratings not so much... although they never do anything with him. Cena is the only regular that affects ratings and ticket sales. 

Almost everyone else including A.J., Dean, Seth is interchangeable, however Reigns actually done worse than the others for house shows for tickets several months ago.

Taker might have helped rating recently, but since he only rarely shows up and it's only during Mania season it doesn't count. The Rock did better than the rest during his last run, but isn't a regular.

tldr; = The crowd chanting this is awesome doesn't translate into being a draw. Cena, Rock, Lesnar... what do they have in common? Booked strongly.

Edited January 19, 2017 by AtariLegend

[axlslash]

WWE doesn't have to build or establish AJ, TBH. While many people haven't seen his entire body of indy work, most adult fans are aware of who this guy is. He's an established, bona fide star. So just like Brock is still a monster after losing in 90 seconds, and just like Roman is still a believable force after losing clean to Finn in his second match on his first Raw, AJ is fine.

If you're going to accuse WWE of "burying" AJ, I highly recommend listening to Rockstar Spud on this week's WZ Weekly. He gets asked point blank about getting buried by a toddler. He responds "Was I on the show? Did people talk about my match after the show? Do you remember that match a month later and are you still asking me about it in interviews? Then I wasn't buried." He then reminds the host that Rockstar Spud is a fictional character, and that wins and losses don't necessarily mean anything. It's refreshing to hear someone whose gimmick last year was losing every single match (all the while becoming one of the most entertaining characters on his show) talk about the business that way. Us smarks need that reminder every so often.

AJ is the WWE champ on a huge run. He's beaten Cena clean. He's over as a motherfucker. You cannot say he's been buried, period.

On a related note. Watching smackdown this week and hearing the boos for Cena when they mentioned Flair's record, I couldn't help but think: how much would the fans HATE Flair today? He was big, he wasn't too fast, and the company pushed him hard constantly. Smarks would boo the hell out of him. 

[AtariLegend]

I never used the word buried. You used used the word "love" in relation to his booking.

[username]

4 hours ago, axlslash said:

I couldn't help but think: how much would the fans HATE Flair today? He was big, he wasn't too fast, and the company pushed him hard constantly. Smarks would boo the hell out of him. 

That's too simple. For one thing Flair, as opposed to say Reigns or Cena, wasn't always kept in the same role. He would turn heel or face. And he was charismatic as hell in both of those. His promo's were spot on, heel or face. But I admit it would be hard to imagine how he would do in modern times where kayfabe is dead 

[Bono]

11 minutes ago, username said:

That's too simple. For one thing Flair, as opposed to say Reigns or Cena, wasn't always kept in the same role. He would turn heel or face. And he was charismatic as hell in both of those. His promo's were spot on, heel or face. But I admit it would be hard to imagine how he would do in modern times where kayfabe is dead 

Like it or not Cena is charismatic in both roles as well. Dare I say even more so than Flair. I've never really seen the appeal of Flair myself to be honest. Cena's big problem is they booked him as Super Cena for 10 fucking years so yeah.... 

[username]

 

1 minute ago, Bono said:

Like it or not Cena is charismatic in both roles as well. Dare I say even more so than Flair. I've never really seen the appeal of Flair myself to be honest. Cena's big problem is they booked him as Super Cena for 10 fucking years so yeah.... 

Oh Cena is charismatic as hell. Definitely. And his in-ring work is very good too. With him it's purely booking that's keeping him in one forced role, sadly. He's a great heel too. 

 

On another note... looking at the past Rumbles... WWE does have a mainly bad booking track record there. This decade: 

2016 - Triple H - Nobody wanted this. Another doomed attempt to get Roman over. 

2015 - Reigns, heeeeeeell no. Not even The Rock could make that work. YES movement was still in full swing. 

2014 - Batista, Bootista. Who quite simply wasn't Daniel Bryan. 

2013 - Cena, quite good actually. Just a shame that it was for Twice In A Lifetime. 

2012 - Sheamus, ok, in fairness this was fairly successful, I just never liked him. 

2011 - ADR, wasn't over at the time, lost at Mania in a match nobody really remembers. 

2010 - Edge, last decent victory. Should have won the title from Jericho. 

[Bono]

I would've liked Triple H's win last year had it come with a different story line but it was too predictable what they were trying to do with it.  Kinda like how Jericho winning the US title is cool but sucks because we know it was less about Jericho winning it and more about getting it off Reigns so he can win the Universal title. 

Personally I think Cena should beat AJ for the title in heel fashion. Cheat to win it, then have Undertaker win the Rumble. That sets up a perfect Mania match with Face Taker going for the title in his last ever match vs legit heel Cena. Taker wins then retires on RAW the next night, everyone is happy but fuck apparently they've moved away from Cena/Taker at Mania. Just dumb. I get trying to put over newer talent but sometimes the stories write themselves and it's beyond rare that you'd have this opportunity with a guy like Taker at the end of his career and with Cena finally after all these years being heel. It's a no brainer in my opinion.