Male-Female, Jerk or helpful....what would you have done? Cookies and little girls involved

[Apollo]

So, just curious as to what you would have done in my situation and if you agree/disagree with me.

Two little girls, maybe 8-10 years old, show up at my door. I answer and they hand me two home made cookies. Turns out they are going door-to-door handing out cookies. Not for sale, but if you want to "give" a tip they'll take it. "The last house gave us $5."

The rub is that the cookies are real pos. Basically burnt, hard as a hockey puck. Not edible, even for a homeless person.

So I say "No thanks, you can keep them. But thanks for coming by."

They say "you can keep them, you don't have to pay us."

I'm completely honest with them and say that nobody wants a burnt cookie. And that if I kept it I'd just throw it away as soon as they left. I tell them they need to get their cooking/baking skills to a level where they can make cookies that aren't burnt - next time, try taking them out a couple minutes earlier, etc.

I tell them that I will gladly give them a dollar for every cookie they bring me in the future that is cooked properly. And that if they start selling good cookies they'll make a lot of money. I ask the girl if she'd eat the cookie she was giving me and she said "maybe if I was really hungry."

NOW......my wife as aghast. And all the females I've told that story to have said it was a prick move and I should have just smiled, taken the cookies, and then threw them away after the girls left.

But how is that helping the budding entrepreneurs? If everybody just kept accepting the crap cookies, patting the girls on the head and telling them how sweet they are.......would they ever learn to do it properly? The girls would continue to try and sell the world's worst cookies, and people around the neighborhood would start NOT answering their door when they saw it was the girls with the burnt cookies.

I'm pretty sure the girls (or their parents) made cookies and they kept the proper ones and the girls were just selling off the ones their family DIDN"T WANT TO EAT because they were burnt.

Why am I prick in this case?
What I told the girls should totally help them. If they take my advice, and start selling regular cookies, they could make $20 every time they make a batch of homemade chocolate chip cookies.

But if they keep doing what they are doing - and ALL the other mothers keep patting them on the head and saying how cute it is - what happens? They continue trying to pawn off burnt cookies that nobody wants.

What do you think is better? False praise or telling somebody the truth?

[CheapJon]

You did good. Don't think I'm man enough to do that myself.

However, I would not accept cookies like that, I'd just say no, unless I was baked but then I wouldn't open the door in the first place.

Edited March 13, 2015 by CheapJon

[classicrawker]

JMO, I think since they are only 9 years old you should have thanked them and slipped them a couple of bucks for having the courage to go door to door to sell their cookies which they most likely were very proud of making themselves even if inedible.

If they were your children I agree you should mentor them with the truth, diplomatically, but somebody else's children donot need to be lectured by a stranger especially since they were not doing anything wrong. As a stranger they didn't need you to tell them the "truth" as you are not their parent or coach which in that case they want and need you to advise them. Sometimes we need to encourage children just for trying hard to accomplish something even if their attempt was not a total success.

Not trying to bust your stones just offering my honest opinion in how I would have handled the situation.

Edited March 13, 2015 by classicrawker

[Dazey]

Laughing so hard right now.

Dick move though buddy.

[Coma16]

Groghan

[Len Cnut]

But how is that helping the budding entrepreneurs?

They're fuckin' 9 years old man They ain't budding entrepreneurs, they're a handful of birthdays away from feotuses, they ain't trying to hear all that shit, they're babies, just smile and go 'awwww, thats wonderful, what a bang up job you girls are doing' and then drop a couple of dollars on em and be on your way. You don't teach kids by telling em they did shit at the job, you teach kids by example...and since you can't do that without coming off as Mr Creepy Peado Man (hey girls, come in, i'll show you how to bake cookies properly) then you just hand em your money and send em on their way.

If everybody just kept accepting the crap cookies, patting the girls on the head and telling them how sweet they are.......would they ever learn to do it properly?

It ain't your job to teach lessons to other peoples kids, you ain't raising em, thats someone elses job, your job is to not scare em or give em a drilling (as in drill seargant not...well, y'know )

The girls would continue to try and sell the world's worst cookies, and people around the neighborhood would start NOT answering their door when they saw it was the girls with the burnt cookies.

You're over thinking this shit man

Why am I prick in this case?

You're not because that shit is to do with where you are coming from with your comments and you're coming from an honourable place i.e. you want em to do good at this shit. So you're not the prick in this case...but you might APPEAR to be because...see the problem with this whole Mr Miyagi 'you'll appreciate the lesson by the end' thing is that you've gotta actually make it to the end to get the fruits. If Daniel-san had fucked off after one day of painting the fence thinking 'fuck this little bald-headed midget, getting me to creosote his fence and I'm facing a beating off of Johnny Whatshisface' and thats kinda the deal here, they gotta actually follow through on what you've put forward to get the results and learn the overall lesson being put forward here...at the doorstep phase you're just gonna look like a grizzly old man giving these 9 year olds a hard time for no good reason.

What do you think is better? False praise or telling somebody the truth?

Again, perspective man, 9 year olds You basically told girl scouts that their cookies suck I'm actually laughing whilst typing this because it's hilairious how the sentiment can be misunderstood, it's actually quite comical and you're not in the wrong but...thats other peoples kids man, they don't need like, Simon Cowell levels of brutal honesty, you're not reviewing Chi Dem on the forum, it's babies man

You wanna be careful some big anchor tattooed popeye lookin' motherfucker don't knock on your door tommorow wanting to know why you ethered his little girls who wanted to just sell you some cookies. You know what kids are like, probably ran home like 'Daddy! The man at number *insert Apollos door number here* was SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO mean!!! He said our cookies sucked!!' *man loads shotgun* Is that so? Well we'll just see about that now, won't we?'

[SoulMonster]

"Budding entrepreneurs"? They don't want entrepreneurial advice, they want some encouragement, friendly people, and to sell some of their cookies which they are probably pretty proud having made. You are acting like they were grown-ups.

EDIT: Lenny got there before me, but yeah, what he said.

Edited March 13, 2015 by SoulMonster

[Lio]

JMO, I think since they are only 9 years old you should have thanked them and slipped them a couple of bucks for having the courage to go door to door to sell their cookies which they most likely were very proud of making themselves even if inedible.

If they were your children I agree you should mentor them with the truth, diplomatically, but somebody else's children donot need to be lectured by a stranger especially since they were not doing anything wrong. As a stranger they didn't need you to tell them the "truth" as you are not their parent or coach which in that case they want and need you to advise them. Sometimes we need to encourage children just for trying hard to accomplish something even if their attempt was not a total success.

Not trying to bust your stones just offering my honest opinion in how I would have handled the situation.

Yes, this.

[alfierose]

Were there no supervising adult? Eight year old girls knocking door to door seems like a bit of a dodgy idea in the first place. Having said that I remember making rose petal 'perfume' in a dirty old bucket, putting it in jam jars and selling it to the neighbours. Most of them coughed up 20p out of politeness and I was most impressed with myself. Maybe if someone had offered me a word about quality control I'd be rivalling Jo Malone by now. I'll never know!

Maybe you should have asked them to come back at a later date and then had a word with the appropriate adults. In the UK I think there are actually laws governing the preparation of food to be sold even for charity because of the H&S element.

[magisme]

I wouldn't have lectured them, but I wouldn't have given them money either. You don't get a couple bucks just for being a little girl and knocking on my door with some shit I didn't ask for.

[classicrawker]

I wouldn't have lectured them, but I wouldn't have given them money either. You don't get a couple bucks just for being a little girl and knocking on my door with some shit I didn't ask for.

I am guessing you have no children, yes?

Edited March 13, 2015 by classicrawker

[Apollo]

I wouldn't have lectured them, but I wouldn't have given them money either. You don't get a couple bucks just for being a little girl and knocking on my door with some shit I didn't ask for.

Finally, somebody gets it.

We live in a society where schools are replacing red ink because it has a negative connotation, where every kid who plays a sport gets a trophy. These girls were selling burnt cookies that NOBODY was going to eat. Because they are cute little girls, then we should just give them money and pat them on the head and say "good job."

As for the lecture or me trying to raise them or whatever. These girls knocked on MY door at MY house and handed me something and said "you can give us a tip if you want." I didn't go seek them out. I didn't go to their lemonade stand on the corner and start yelling at them.

I didn't yell at them. I didn't lecture them. They gave me something and wanted money. I said "no thanks" and explained why. What I told them will help them more than all the people who just paid them and said "oh, aren't you guys cute and sweet." What I told them will help them learn to make their cookies better, which will help them make more money, which will help them "earn" the praise that you all think they so desperately need - as opposed to people just giving them fake praise.

I hate to tell you all this, but over-praising is not a good thing.

Study after study have shown that over-praised kids (in attempts to build their self esteem to the highest level possible) almost always backfires later in life.

[SoulMonster]

Yes, over-praising is problematic, but I am not sure if it applies to the context of girls selling cookies at the doors of strangers It's more a topic for parenting.

And it is not as if you just didn't want to buy their cookies, you had to educate, ridicule and mock them, too

[The Glow Inc.]

I, for one, think you did good.

It's kinda like when people are complaining : they'd rather have you join them in their misery than listen to and apply an advice that would actually solve their problem.

[Len Cnut]

I think the issue here is that you've got these big ideas about society and whats going on with it and where you stand in relation to it...and you've channelled it through a transaction for girl scout cookies and in doing so, have probably chosen a bit of a crappy avenue to express it. You wanna make a sociological point or a stand write tracts or something, make yourself a blog man

All those things you've mentioned, about kids etc, thats what you do with your own kids. Also, its about prudence and self awareness and awareness of how society works. I mean you wanted to teach those girls a positive lesson right? Well what have you taught em, what did your particular approach achieve in regards to that goal? Nothing...and thats the point. Your views on society and how kids should be raised may very well be valid...but this ain't the way to go about planting that flag.

Lifes weird too man, you got kids of your own, you wannabe careful local adults dont start behaving funny with them, you know what people are like, sometimes its just about prudence and picking your shots.

You say 'what i say will help them more' well yes, if they take it on board, which they are not likely to in the way you went about that shit.

I wouldn't have lectured them, but I wouldn't have given them money either. You don't get a couple bucks just for being a little girl and knocking on my door with some shit I didn't ask for.

I thought Wu Tang was for the babies? Shit, you better give em your fuckin' money, cheap motherfucker Honestly, this is like the Reservoir Dogs tip thing, you just do it alright

Edited March 13, 2015 by Len B'stard

[SoulMonster]

Honestly, this is like the Reservoir Dogs tip thing, you just do it alright

Brilliant analogy! But it's not just like Mr. Brown (or whoever it was) refusing to tip, he refuses to tip AND lectures them about entrepreneurial advice

[Len Cnut]

I, for one, think you did good.

It's kinda like when people are complaining : they'd rather have you join them in their misery than listen to and apply an advice that would actually solve their problem.

Yeah because sometimes people need to unburden themselves and it's more about a friendly ear than someone offering them solutions. Sometimes people are saying 'i got this problem and it's really stressing me out and effecting me negatively' and not 'i got this problem and im not capable of sorting it out myself, can you help me please?'.

Some things heal with time, like some lady whoose, for example, just had a mastectomy cuz of cancer and she's going through all kindsa post traumatic stress or whatever, you can't just offer solutions to that shit cuz there is no solution except time and comfort and someone listening to you and trying to understand, instead of working the shit out on the spot and then offering solutions, do you see how that would be presumptuous and possibly the least helpful thing you can do? It's about being sensitive to what a given person needs, everything ain't this soulless pragmatists conundrum. You show caring by offering your time and putting yourself out, not going 'right, OK, thats the problem, here's the solution, all done', it doesn't work like that.

Honestly, this is like the Reservoir Dogs tip thing, you just do it alright

Brilliant analogy! But it's not just like Mr. Brown (or whoever it was) refusing to tip, he refuses to tip AND lectures them about entrepreneurial advice

Mr Pink...Geeko the Spazzboy strikes again!

Edited March 13, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Apollo]

As a stranger they didn't need you to tell them the "truth" as you are not their parent or coach which in that case they want and need you to advise them. Sometimes we need to encourage children just for trying hard to accomplish something even if their attempt was not a total success.

As a stranger they didn't need you to tell them the "truth" as you are not their parent or coach which in that case they want and need you to advise them. Sometimes we need to encourage children just for trying hard to accomplish something even if their attempt was not a total success.

I know you are a parent - so I respect your point of view.

But.......just because I'm a 'stranger' why would that preclude me from telling them the "truth"? That's a fascinating statement to me, especially from other parents.

And I did encourage them - I told them a couple simple things they could do that would help them "accomplish" whatever it is they were trying to accomplish.

OK. Different group of kids. Let's say you were taking a walk past a basketball court and some little kid said "hey mister, watch me shoot a three-pointer. Will you give me a dollar if I make one?" And then the kid missed 50 in a row. Would you do what you and all the other posters are saying to do - and say "Great job, kid. Good effort, way to try your hardest" and give him a dollar and walk away? Or would you say "if you keep your right elbow closer to your body and move your left hand a few inches over, you'll probably start making more shots."

Or a kid comes to your door and says he'll wash your car for $20, and he's holding a dirty rag and bottle of shampoo......do you say "oh, that's cute. Good for you for going out and doing this" and then you pay the kid?" Or do you tell him that he'd make more money if he used clean towels and the proper soap?

********

Believe it or not, I'm probably one of the 2-3 most popular youth coaches in my town. The last year I coached Little League I must have had 5-6 kids come ask if they could switch teams and play for me. I had parents calling the league to see if they could switch teams. Every year I have other coaches and parents call me and ask if I'll come help or coach with them. I think that kids appreciate a little honesty now and then. They know when people are giving them false praise. OK, one more example. I had this really overweight kid on a 10-12 year old baseball team. One day in the dugout he told me that his parents kept telling him that if he kept working and practicing that he could make All Stars. And that he was just as good as everybody else on the team, but the coach (me) just didn't give him a chance. Before I could answer, the kid said "But I know that is all bullsh*t. I know I'm not very good. My goal is to get one double this season.

This is a 11-year-old kid, whose parents and grandparents are telling him he'd be an All Star if only the coach would give him the chance. Over-praising in a false way does not help a kid. The kid ended up getting three doubles that season and couldn't have been happier or more satisfied........but his parents still tell him he could have played pro, if only given the chance. That kid also called me last year because he wanted my opinion on a major life decision he was trying to make (pilot school, military, or college).

I think kids are smarter than we give them credit for.

**********

AND the next time those girls come to my house........I bet they'll bring me a delicious cookie. And I'll pay them for it. And the entire neighborhood will be happy and not throwing away burnt cookies. And the girls will feel great for not just "trying" to accomplish something, but actually accomplishing it!!!

[MB.]

I would have done both. I would buy the cookies (but for a dollar) and told them the cookies were a little burnt though. That they should practice a little more and make them even better, so next time I would give them more money. 8 year olds can handle that. If they were younger I would have just praised them. .

Edited March 13, 2015 by MB.

[classicrawker]

I, for one, think you did good.

It's kinda like when people are complaining : they'd rather have you join them in their misery than listen to and apply an advice that would actually solve their problem.

I am also guessing you have no children, yes?

[Len Cnut]

I've got a little niece whoose 9 and i was in the shops with her the other day, gave her the money to pay for some shit and just watching her pay and she's like this total fragile creature, probably more shy that most little girls so perhaps not your standard case. Anyway she's paying this guy and you can see her like, kinda nervous, getting her head around this protocol here, i put the thing down, he says its this much, he's putting the money in her hand...and i can kinda see her being tentative in every little movement and it's like wow, something as easy as taking a shit (sometimes easier ) to me is like...a little difficult for her here. If she ever went out selling girl scout cookies it'd probably take her mustering up a lot of courage and if someone was the way Apollo was to her i should imagine she might burst out crying or something. To which, yeah, you can say 'well toughen up, lifes hard and there's no time for crybabies' but you wannabe careful like that because I'd come round your house and show you exactly how hard life can get sometimes.

[Apollo]

Yes, over-praising is problematic, but I am not sure if it applies to the context of girls selling cookies at the doors of strangers It's more a topic for parenting.

And it is not as if you just didn't want to buy their cookies, you had to educate, ridicule and mock them, too

OK OK OK.....maybe there was "almost" some mocking going on.

I probably shouldn't have said "would you eat this?"

But these things were as f*cking hard and black as a hockey puck.

The whole thing was a little weird and caught me off guard.

It was dark out, maybe 8 pm.

I opened the door.

They handed me two cookies.

There was no hello, we're selling cookies, etc. No introduction. They just reached out two cookies and I naturally took them. Then looked at them like ......Uhhh, what's going on?

Then they say that I can "tip them" if I want.

If they were just going around giving out free cookies............maybe I would have just said thanks and took them. Maybe thrown in a "I really like the softer cookies" or something like that.

But these girls were SELLING them door-to-door. And they were selling cookies that I guarantee you nobody ate. Every cookie they sold or gave away got thrown in the garbage. Nobody wins. So I just told them how they could improve their little operation. I wasn't yelling or lecturing. I was smiling and very friendly about it.

It was about a 1 minute conversation and the girls left in a good mood. I didn't yell at them and they didn't run away crying.

[Słash]

i would have done the same thing as u, I really dont know how was ur tone when u told them, but I would have talked to them politely, If people keep on paying for burnt cookies then it means they r taking advantage of u, If u know their parents, then tell their parents the cookies r burnt and be careful next time

[Len Cnut]

Yes, over-praising is problematic, but I am not sure if it applies to the context of girls selling cookies at the doors of strangers It's more a topic for parenting.

And it is not as if you just didn't want to buy their cookies, you had to educate, ridicule and mock them, too

OK OK OK.....maybe there was "almost" some mocking going on.

I probably shouldn't have said "would you eat this?"

But these things were as f*cking hard and black as a hockey puck.

The whole thing was a little weird and caught me off guard.

It was dark out, maybe 8 pm.

I opened the door.

They handed me two cookies.

There was no hello, we're selling cookies, etc. No introduction. They just reached out two cookies and I naturally took them. Then looked at them like ......Uhhh, what's going on?

Then they say that I can "tip them" if I want.

If they were just going around giving out free cookies............maybe I would have just said thanks and took them. Maybe thrown in a "I really like the softer cookies" or something like that.

But these girls were SELLING them door-to-door. And they were selling cookies that I guarantee you nobody ate. Every cookie they sold or gave away got thrown in the garbage. Nobody wins. So I just told them how they could improve their little operation. I wasn't yelling or lecturing. I was smiling and very friendly about it.

It was about a 1 minute conversation and the girls left in a good mood. I didn't yell at them and they didn't run away crying.

So you admit, you were taking the piss out of them a bit too? You're a legend

[classicrawker]

As a stranger they didn't need you to tell them the "truth" as you are not their parent or coach which in that case they want and need you to advise them. Sometimes we need to encourage children just for trying hard to accomplish something even if their attempt was not a total success.

As a stranger they didn't need you to tell them the "truth" as you are not their parent or coach which in that case they want and need you to advise them. Sometimes we need to encourage children just for trying hard to accomplish something even if their attempt was not a total success.

I know you are a parent - so I respect your point of view.

But.......just because I'm a 'stranger' why would that preclude me from telling them the "truth"? That's a fascinating statement to me, especially from other parents.

And I did encourage them - I told them a couple simple things they could do that would help them "accomplish" whatever it is they were trying to accomplish.

OK. Different group of kids. Let's say you were taking a walk past a basketball court and some little kid said "hey mister, watch me shoot a three-pointer. Will you give me a dollar if I make one?" And then the kid missed 50 in a row. Would you do what you and all the other posters are saying to do - and say "Great job, kid. Good effort, way to try your hardest" and give him a dollar and walk away? Or would you say "if you keep your right elbow closer to your body and move your left hand a few inches over, you'll probably start making more shots."

Or a kid comes to your door and says he'll wash your car for $20, and he's holding a dirty rag and bottle of shampoo......do you say "oh, that's cute. Good for you for going out and doing this" and then you pay the kid?" Or do you tell him that he'd make more money if he used clean towels and the proper soap?

********

Believe it or not, I'm probably one of the 2-3 most popular youth coaches in my town. The last year I coached Little League I must have had 5-6 kids come ask if they could switch teams and play for me. I had parents calling the league to see if they could switch teams. Every year I have other coaches and parents call me and ask if I'll come help or coach with them. I think that kids appreciate a little honesty now and then. They know when people are giving them false praise. OK, one more example. I had this really overweight kid on a 10-12 year old baseball team. One day in the dugout he told me that his parents kept telling him that if he kept working and practicing that he could make All Stars. And that he was just as good as everybody else on the team, but the coach (me) just didn't give him a chance. Before I could answer, the kid said "But I know that is all bullsh*t. I know I'm not very good. My goal is to get one double this season.

This is a 11-year-old kid, whose parents and grandparents are telling him he'd be an All Star if only the coach would give him the chance. Over-praising in a false way does not help a kid. The kid ended up getting three doubles that season and couldn't have been happier or more satisfied........but his parents still tell him he could have played pro, if only given the chance. That kid also called me last year because he wanted my opinion on a major life decision he was trying to make (pilot school, military, or college).

I think kids are smarter than we give them credit for.

**********

AND the next time those girls come to my house........I bet they'll bring me a delicious cookie. And I'll pay them for it. And the entire neighborhood will be happy and not throwing away burnt cookies. And the girls will feel great for not just "trying" to accomplish something, but actually accomplishing it!!!

With all due respect Apollo your analogies are not the same as the cookie case as the children in those analogies were not asking for "donations"

Concerning your coaching ability I have no doubt you approach this with enthusiasm as you seem to like to advise people on what is right but that is a different case which I covered in my response.

When you are a coach, or a teacher for that matter, it is your job to advise and teach. In the cookie case the girls did not come to you for advice on how to make their cookies better. They came to you because they were most likely proud of their efforts and wanted to make a few dollars selling their hard work.

Instead of lecturing them you should of just politely declined if you felt that strongly about it and left it at that instead of pissing in their Lucky Charms.

I had a feeling you came here for reassurance that your approach was correct which in that case nothing anyone can say to you will ever change your mind that you could have handled things a little more diplomatically then you did. Since you think you were right I won't waste any more time debating the issue with you as neither of us is going to change our opinions.