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ZoSoRose

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And I disagree that their problem was that terrestrial radio wouldn't play their other songs. If they're going to play Blitzkrieg Pop and I Want to Be Sedated, why would they pass on other songs by The Ramones? Not sure what radio is like in the UK, but those two songs have been played fairly regularly for a very long time.

i meant like in the 70s, when they were coming up they couldn't get played so they couldn't make hits.

The way i quantify best is when you look at everything from a birdseye view, the whole scope of the history of American rock n roll, which is the most important and did the most to inform what the thing is.

"What the thing is." But I've got to think that the vast majority of rock fans think rock is more than just a stripped down three-chord opera. The pendulum does like to swing between bombastic/epic overtures on the one side and stripped down little ditties on the other; so in that sense, The Ramones represent what many consider one extreme of what rock is. But where they the best at it? I'd argue maybe (bands like The Stooges, The Pixies and even Nirvana in my opinion were better), you'd argue yes. So there's that.

But were they best overall rock band, one that can play in both sides of the field and incorporate many different styles? Not a chance. Like I said, they were a one trick pony, and though they could do that trick very well, they could never, for me at least, represent the very best of what American rock had to offer. Too basic, too narrow of a vision to be considered one of the greats. A band like GNR would mop the floor with them both from a recording and a live perspective. It's So Easy over Blitzkrieg Bop any day of the week.

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@ Len

You're right, best is a relative concept. But how myself, and I would imagine the OP, considers the term is as such: musical talent + variety in composition + broad base appeal = best.

Most people consider The Beatles the best rock band of all time because they had a tremendous amount of musical talent, could compose many different styles of songs, and were able to appeal to a broad slice of the music listening public.

It is in that sense that I think a band like the Ramones are extremely overrated within the larger context of America's best band. Sure, they were great at what they did, but their composition was very limited. If that was your thing, then great, but they had little in winning over fans who weren't into the punk sound, unlike a band like The Clash.

And I disagree that their problem was that terrestrial radio wouldn't play their other songs. If they're going to play Blitzkrieg Pop and I Want to Be Sedated, why would they pass on other songs by The Ramones? Not sure what radio is like in the UK, but those two songs have been played fairly regularly for a very long time.

They did win fans of other rock genres. As I stated earlier, The Ramones were held in high regard by metal, new wave, goth, college rock (which was labeled alternative years later), hardcore and industrial fans. They are the only band that I remember from that period that was able to have such a cross section of fans. They were the 1 band that fans of those genres could agree upon without arguing.

Why did radio pass on the rest of their catalog? Who knows, but that can be said about hundreds of successful and/or influential bands. How many hits have Pearl Jam had, for instance? Not many. Why has radio passed on the rest of their catalog? That's just the way it goes.

Smashing Pumpkins are one of the most successful and influential bands of the past 20 years...not many hits though. How many hits have Radiohead had? Maybe they have a bunch of well known songs, as PJ do, as Ramones do, but not legitimate big selling singles. Not every band can be The Beatles or Madonna whom radio and people that bought their 45's embraced. It doesn't make them less talented or less "best".

And on another note, I do not consider The Beatles to be the best rock band of all time. But that's for another thread at another time!

WTF? Pearl Jam didn't have many hits?

They had four monster hits off their first album Ten, (Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy, Black). Then consider the numerous hits that stemmed from their many subsequent releases (Glorified G, Daughter, Elderly Woman, Dissident, Go, Better Man, Not For You, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Do The Evolution, Wishlist, Who Are You, Off He Goes). And that's just their first four albums.

Seriously, what the fuck you smoking?

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@ Len

You're right, best is a relative concept. But how myself, and I would imagine the OP, considers the term is as such: musical talent + variety in composition + broad base appeal = best.

Most people consider The Beatles the best rock band of all time because they had a tremendous amount of musical talent, could compose many different styles of songs, and were able to appeal to a broad slice of the music listening public.

It is in that sense that I think a band like the Ramones are extremely overrated within the larger context of America's best band. Sure, they were great at what they did, but their composition was very limited. If that was your thing, then great, but they had little in winning over fans who weren't into the punk sound, unlike a band like The Clash.

And I disagree that their problem was that terrestrial radio wouldn't play their other songs. If they're going to play Blitzkrieg Pop and I Want to Be Sedated, why would they pass on other songs by The Ramones? Not sure what radio is like in the UK, but those two songs have been played fairly regularly for a very long time.

They did win fans of other rock genres. As I stated earlier, The Ramones were held in high regard by metal, new wave, goth, college rock (which was labeled alternative years later), hardcore and industrial fans. They are the only band that I remember from that period that was able to have such a cross section of fans. They were the 1 band that fans of those genres could agree upon without arguing.

Why did radio pass on the rest of their catalog? Who knows, but that can be said about hundreds of successful and/or influential bands. How many hits have Pearl Jam had, for instance? Not many. Why has radio passed on the rest of their catalog? That's just the way it goes.

Smashing Pumpkins are one of the most successful and influential bands of the past 20 years...not many hits though. How many hits have Radiohead had? Maybe they have a bunch of well known songs, as PJ do, as Ramones do, but not legitimate big selling singles. Not every band can be The Beatles or Madonna whom radio and people that bought their 45's embraced. It doesn't make them less talented or less "best".

And on another note, I do not consider The Beatles to be the best rock band of all time. But that's for another thread at another time!

WTF? Pearl Jam didn't have many hits?

They had four monster hits off their first album Ten, (Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy, Black). Then consider the numerous hits that stemmed from their many subsequent releases (Glorified G, Daughter, Elderly Woman, Dissident, Go, Better Man, Not For You, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Do The Evolution, Wishlist, Who Are You, Off He Goes). And that's just their first four albums.

Seriously, what the fuck you smoking?

Those songs you listed aren't hits. They are well known songs, most of them by the band's fans. Nobody on the street is going to know Wishlist or Who Are You or Off He Goes or Corduroy or Dissident. Nobody but a PJ fan.

Alive, Jeremy, Even Flow, Last Kiss are their hits among the mainstream. Glorified G might be the worst song ever written, btw. And I'm a PJ fan.

I could list the 30 songs on Ramones Mania then and call them hits. But it's not true

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@ Len

You're right, best is a relative concept. But how myself, and I would imagine the OP, considers the term is as such: musical talent + variety in composition + broad base appeal = best.

Most people consider The Beatles the best rock band of all time because they had a tremendous amount of musical talent, could compose many different styles of songs, and were able to appeal to a broad slice of the music listening public.

It is in that sense that I think a band like the Ramones are extremely overrated within the larger context of America's best band. Sure, they were great at what they did, but their composition was very limited. If that was your thing, then great, but they had little in winning over fans who weren't into the punk sound, unlike a band like The Clash.

And I disagree that their problem was that terrestrial radio wouldn't play their other songs. If they're going to play Blitzkrieg Pop and I Want to Be Sedated, why would they pass on other songs by The Ramones? Not sure what radio is like in the UK, but those two songs have been played fairly regularly for a very long time.

They did win fans of other rock genres. As I stated earlier, The Ramones were held in high regard by metal, new wave, goth, college rock (which was labeled alternative years later), hardcore and industrial fans. They are the only band that I remember from that period that was able to have such a cross section of fans. They were the 1 band that fans of those genres could agree upon without arguing.

Why did radio pass on the rest of their catalog? Who knows, but that can be said about hundreds of successful and/or influential bands. How many hits have Pearl Jam had, for instance? Not many. Why has radio passed on the rest of their catalog? That's just the way it goes.

Smashing Pumpkins are one of the most successful and influential bands of the past 20 years...not many hits though. How many hits have Radiohead had? Maybe they have a bunch of well known songs, as PJ do, as Ramones do, but not legitimate big selling singles. Not every band can be The Beatles or Madonna whom radio and people that bought their 45's embraced. It doesn't make them less talented or less "best".

And on another note, I do not consider The Beatles to be the best rock band of all time. But that's for another thread at another time!

WTF? Pearl Jam didn't have many hits?

They had four monster hits off their first album Ten, (Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy, Black). Then consider the numerous hits that stemmed from their many subsequent releases (Glorified G, Daughter, Elderly Woman, Dissident, Go, Better Man, Not For You, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Do The Evolution, Wishlist, Who Are You, Off He Goes). And that's just their first four albums.

Seriously, what the fuck you smoking?

Those songs you listed aren't hits. They are well known songs.

Alive, Jeremy, Even Flow, Last Kiss are their hit singles

No, they're songs that were ranked by Billboard, most of which were top 40 on the mainstream rock and modern rock charts. Most songs are considered hits if they hit the top 40 of the rock charts.

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Guns N' Roses. I don't care much about this whole originality and influence thing. GNR took everything that was great about all the hard rock that came before them and distilled it and perfected it.

Yeah, I agree with this sentiment. Only thing that makes it difficult for me to completely agree is the longevity of their career and the lack of material.

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@ Len

You're right, best is a relative concept. But how myself, and I would imagine the OP, considers the term is as such: musical talent + variety in composition + broad base appeal = best.

Most people consider The Beatles the best rock band of all time because they had a tremendous amount of musical talent, could compose many different styles of songs, and were able to appeal to a broad slice of the music listening public.

It is in that sense that I think a band like the Ramones are extremely overrated within the larger context of America's best band. Sure, they were great at what they did, but their composition was very limited. If that was your thing, then great, but they had little in winning over fans who weren't into the punk sound, unlike a band like The Clash.

And I disagree that their problem was that terrestrial radio wouldn't play their other songs. If they're going to play Blitzkrieg Pop and I Want to Be Sedated, why would they pass on other songs by The Ramones? Not sure what radio is like in the UK, but those two songs have been played fairly regularly for a very long time.

They did win fans of other rock genres. As I stated earlier, The Ramones were held in high regard by metal, new wave, goth, college rock (which was labeled alternative years later), hardcore and industrial fans. They are the only band that I remember from that period that was able to have such a cross section of fans. They were the 1 band that fans of those genres could agree upon without arguing.

Why did radio pass on the rest of their catalog? Who knows, but that can be said about hundreds of successful and/or influential bands. How many hits have Pearl Jam had, for instance? Not many. Why has radio passed on the rest of their catalog? That's just the way it goes.

Smashing Pumpkins are one of the most successful and influential bands of the past 20 years...not many hits though. How many hits have Radiohead had? Maybe they have a bunch of well known songs, as PJ do, as Ramones do, but not legitimate big selling singles. Not every band can be The Beatles or Madonna whom radio and people that bought their 45's embraced. It doesn't make them less talented or less "best".

And on another note, I do not consider The Beatles to be the best rock band of all time. But that's for another thread at another time!

WTF? Pearl Jam didn't have many hits?

They had four monster hits off their first album Ten, (Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy, Black). Then consider the numerous hits that stemmed from their many subsequent releases (Glorified G, Daughter, Elderly Woman, Dissident, Go, Better Man, Not For You, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Do The Evolution, Wishlist, Who Are You, Off He Goes). And that's just their first four albums.

Seriously, what the fuck you smoking?

Those songs you listed aren't hits. They are well known songs.

Alive, Jeremy, Even Flow, Last Kiss are their hit singles

No, they're songs that were ranked by Billboard, most of which were top 40 on the mainstream rock and modern rock charts. Most songs are considered hits if they hit the top 40 of the rock charts.

Black was not a single. Nor was Glorified G (thank fuck).

They have had 4 top 40 hits on the mainstream charts. All the other genre charts mean fuck all. That's a way of spinning things into thinking they were hits when they were not. That's sort of like the one trick pony thing you mentioned...they have hits on modern rock radio but nowhere else. Kinda one trick pony in a sense.

DC Talk has had countless hits on the Christian Radio charts. Means nothing to the mainstream. And that doesn't qualify them as "hits" either.

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Guns N' Roses. I don't care much about this whole originality and influence thing. GNR took everything that was great about all the hard rock that came before them and distilled it and perfected it.

Yeah, I agree with this sentiment. Only thing that makes it difficult for me to completely agree is the longevity of their career and the lack of material.

How much longevity do you need? The old band had 66 officially released songs. For a 70s band that would be like 8 albums worth. I think that's what matters, because it's the recording that survives. What was going on at the time is past and only really matters to those who lived through those moments but to us today all that (I think) should matter is what we can hear ourselves.

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I've actually had this debate previously with another guitar player on here where we even got to the point of them saying they'd prove how easy it was to play like Johnny Ramone...and you know what, they couldn't and apart from that I'd bet money that you could take a guitar player out of Julliard and ask him to run through a Ramones set and he'd be dead in the water inside of 15 mins.

Lies, fabrication, this never happened. I recall the argument being about whether or not I can play Billy Bob Thornton songs, to which I egregiously won.

Yes, Uncle Len taught me a lesson. He is right, The Ramones were rhythmically tight, and Johnny had a right hand that rivals the best metal players. I still am not a fan, and I definitely wouldn't call them the best American rock band, but they deserve more serious musical credit than most people (who aren't already fans) give them.

I wasn't trying to blow you up or anything man, didn't say your name or nothin :lol:

Guns N' Roses. I don't care much about this whole originality and influence thing. GNR took everything that was great about all the hard rock that came before them and distilled it and perfected it.

It's kinda important with this sort of question though otherwise its just people listing bands they like.

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@ Len

You're right, best is a relative concept. But how myself, and I would imagine the OP, considers the term is as such: musical talent + variety in composition + broad base appeal = best.

Most people consider The Beatles the best rock band of all time because they had a tremendous amount of musical talent, could compose many different styles of songs, and were able to appeal to a broad slice of the music listening public.

It is in that sense that I think a band like the Ramones are extremely overrated within the larger context of America's best band. Sure, they were great at what they did, but their composition was very limited. If that was your thing, then great, but they had little in winning over fans who weren't into the punk sound, unlike a band like The Clash.

And I disagree that their problem was that terrestrial radio wouldn't play their other songs. If they're going to play Blitzkrieg Pop and I Want to Be Sedated, why would they pass on other songs by The Ramones? Not sure what radio is like in the UK, but those two songs have been played fairly regularly for a very long time.

They did win fans of other rock genres. As I stated earlier, The Ramones were held in high regard by metal, new wave, goth, college rock (which was labeled alternative years later), hardcore and industrial fans. They are the only band that I remember from that period that was able to have such a cross section of fans. They were the 1 band that fans of those genres could agree upon without arguing.

Why did radio pass on the rest of their catalog? Who knows, but that can be said about hundreds of successful and/or influential bands. How many hits have Pearl Jam had, for instance? Not many. Why has radio passed on the rest of their catalog? That's just the way it goes.

Smashing Pumpkins are one of the most successful and influential bands of the past 20 years...not many hits though. How many hits have Radiohead had? Maybe they have a bunch of well known songs, as PJ do, as Ramones do, but not legitimate big selling singles. Not every band can be The Beatles or Madonna whom radio and people that bought their 45's embraced. It doesn't make them less talented or less "best".

And on another note, I do not consider The Beatles to be the best rock band of all time. But that's for another thread at another time!

WTF? Pearl Jam didn't have many hits?

They had four monster hits off their first album Ten, (Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy, Black). Then consider the numerous hits that stemmed from their many subsequent releases (Glorified G, Daughter, Elderly Woman, Dissident, Go, Better Man, Not For You, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Do The Evolution, Wishlist, Who Are You, Off He Goes). And that's just their first four albums.

Seriously, what the fuck you smoking?

Those songs you listed aren't hits. They are well known songs.

Alive, Jeremy, Even Flow, Last Kiss are their hit singles

No, they're songs that were ranked by Billboard, most of which were top 40 on the mainstream rock and modern rock charts. Most songs are considered hits if they hit the top 40 of the rock charts.

Black was not a single. Nor was Glorified G (thank fuck).

They have had 4 top 40 hits on the mainstream charts. All the other genre charts mean fuck all. That's a way of spinning things into thinking they were hits when they were not. That's sort of like the one trick pony thing you mentioned...they have hits on modern rock radio but nowhere else. Kinda one trick pony in a sense.

DC Talk has had countless hits on the Christian Radio charts. Means nothing to the mainstream. And that doesn't qualify them as "hits" either.

A) Regardless of being released as singles, they still charted. A song can still be considered a hit even if it's not released as a single).

B) That's your analysis, not the perspective of the industry. Many/most rock songs don't chart on the Billboard Hot 100 because there are many more pop/adult contemporary radio stations in the U.S. than there are rock/alternative stations. Any rock song that charts in the top 40 mainstream rock chart is considered a hit by industry standards.

C) How do songs become well known if they weren't hits at one point? Sure, there are exceptions, where songs become popular later on, but their popularity stems from somewhere.

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The Velvet Underground to name another

Creedence Clearwater Revival to name yet another

CCR are one of my favorites

the doors

ccr

slayer

the ramones

alice in chains

plus a shit ton more

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@ Len

You're right, best is a relative concept. But how myself, and I would imagine the OP, considers the term is as such: musical talent + variety in composition + broad base appeal = best.

Most people consider The Beatles the best rock band of all time because they had a tremendous amount of musical talent, could compose many different styles of songs, and were able to appeal to a broad slice of the music listening public.

It is in that sense that I think a band like the Ramones are extremely overrated within the larger context of America's best band. Sure, they were great at what they did, but their composition was very limited. If that was your thing, then great, but they had little in winning over fans who weren't into the punk sound, unlike a band like The Clash.

And I disagree that their problem was that terrestrial radio wouldn't play their other songs. If they're going to play Blitzkrieg Pop and I Want to Be Sedated, why would they pass on other songs by The Ramones? Not sure what radio is like in the UK, but those two songs have been played fairly regularly for a very long time.

They did win fans of other rock genres. As I stated earlier, The Ramones were held in high regard by metal, new wave, goth, college rock (which was labeled alternative years later), hardcore and industrial fans. They are the only band that I remember from that period that was able to have such a cross section of fans. They were the 1 band that fans of those genres could agree upon without arguing.

Why did radio pass on the rest of their catalog? Who knows, but that can be said about hundreds of successful and/or influential bands. How many hits have Pearl Jam had, for instance? Not many. Why has radio passed on the rest of their catalog? That's just the way it goes.

Smashing Pumpkins are one of the most successful and influential bands of the past 20 years...not many hits though. How many hits have Radiohead had? Maybe they have a bunch of well known songs, as PJ do, as Ramones do, but not legitimate big selling singles. Not every band can be The Beatles or Madonna whom radio and people that bought their 45's embraced. It doesn't make them less talented or less "best".

And on another note, I do not consider The Beatles to be the best rock band of all time. But that's for another thread at another time!

WTF? Pearl Jam didn't have many hits?

They had four monster hits off their first album Ten, (Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy, Black). Then consider the numerous hits that stemmed from their many subsequent releases (Glorified G, Daughter, Elderly Woman, Dissident, Go, Better Man, Not For You, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Do The Evolution, Wishlist, Who Are You, Off He Goes). And that's just their first four albums.

Seriously, what the fuck you smoking?

Those songs you listed aren't hits. They are well known songs.

Alive, Jeremy, Even Flow, Last Kiss are their hit singles

No, they're songs that were ranked by Billboard, most of which were top 40 on the mainstream rock and modern rock charts. Most songs are considered hits if they hit the top 40 of the rock charts.

Black was not a single. Nor was Glorified G (thank fuck).

They have had 4 top 40 hits on the mainstream charts. All the other genre charts mean fuck all. That's a way of spinning things into thinking they were hits when they were not. That's sort of like the one trick pony thing you mentioned...they have hits on modern rock radio but nowhere else. Kinda one trick pony in a sense.

DC Talk has had countless hits on the Christian Radio charts. Means nothing to the mainstream. And that doesn't qualify them as "hits" either.

A) Regardless of being released as singles, they still charted. A song can still be considered a hit even if it's not released as a single).

B) That's your analysis, not the perspective of the industry. Many/most rock songs don't chart on the Billboard Hot 100 because there are many more pop/adult contemporary radio stations in the U.S. than there are rock/alternative stations. Any rock song that charts in the top 40 mainstream rock chart is considered a hit by industry standards.

C) How do songs become well known if they weren't hits at one point? Sure, there are exceptions, where songs become popular later on, but their popularity stems from somewhere.

Then all 30 songs on Ramones Mania can be considered "hits". All are well known, maybe not by you, but they are well known.

Black is a great song, not a single but has become a hit over time. Yellow Ledbetter would be another perfect example. Which leads right back to the Ramones Mania thing. Sheena Is A Punk Rocker...hit single-no...hit-yes.

Just like the entire Doors catalog. Many people can rattle off dozens of Doors songs, but they weren't all hit singles. Most of them weren't even singles. Classic rock radio back in the day didn't just play the old hit singles, they'd play any song from the band and then it gave the illusion, so to speak, of them being hits....which again..hit singles-some-yes, most-no...but they've become well known, so they become "hits" over time.

Again, PJ have had 4 mainstream hit singles. Nothing to argue there. That's fact and not perception.

And again, I think PJ are a contender for best American band...certainly top 20.

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@ Len

You're right, best is a relative concept. But how myself, and I would imagine the OP, considers the term is as such: musical talent + variety in composition + broad base appeal = best.

Most people consider The Beatles the best rock band of all time because they had a tremendous amount of musical talent, could compose many different styles of songs, and were able to appeal to a broad slice of the music listening public.

It is in that sense that I think a band like the Ramones are extremely overrated within the larger context of America's best band. Sure, they were great at what they did, but their composition was very limited. If that was your thing, then great, but they had little in winning over fans who weren't into the punk sound, unlike a band like The Clash.

And I disagree that their problem was that terrestrial radio wouldn't play their other songs. If they're going to play Blitzkrieg Pop and I Want to Be Sedated, why would they pass on other songs by The Ramones? Not sure what radio is like in the UK, but those two songs have been played fairly regularly for a very long time.

They did win fans of other rock genres. As I stated earlier, The Ramones were held in high regard by metal, new wave, goth, college rock (which was labeled alternative years later), hardcore and industrial fans. They are the only band that I remember from that period that was able to have such a cross section of fans. They were the 1 band that fans of those genres could agree upon without arguing.

Why did radio pass on the rest of their catalog? Who knows, but that can be said about hundreds of successful and/or influential bands. How many hits have Pearl Jam had, for instance? Not many. Why has radio passed on the rest of their catalog? That's just the way it goes.

Smashing Pumpkins are one of the most successful and influential bands of the past 20 years...not many hits though. How many hits have Radiohead had? Maybe they have a bunch of well known songs, as PJ do, as Ramones do, but not legitimate big selling singles. Not every band can be The Beatles or Madonna whom radio and people that bought their 45's embraced. It doesn't make them less talented or less "best".

And on another note, I do not consider The Beatles to be the best rock band of all time. But that's for another thread at another time!

WTF? Pearl Jam didn't have many hits?

They had four monster hits off their first album Ten, (Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy, Black). Then consider the numerous hits that stemmed from their many subsequent releases (Glorified G, Daughter, Elderly Woman, Dissident, Go, Better Man, Not For You, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Do The Evolution, Wishlist, Who Are You, Off He Goes). And that's just their first four albums.

Seriously, what the fuck you smoking?

Those songs you listed aren't hits. They are well known songs.

Alive, Jeremy, Even Flow, Last Kiss are their hit singles

No, they're songs that were ranked by Billboard, most of which were top 40 on the mainstream rock and modern rock charts. Most songs are considered hits if they hit the top 40 of the rock charts.

Black was not a single. Nor was Glorified G (thank fuck).

They have had 4 top 40 hits on the mainstream charts. All the other genre charts mean fuck all. That's a way of spinning things into thinking they were hits when they were not. That's sort of like the one trick pony thing you mentioned...they have hits on modern rock radio but nowhere else. Kinda one trick pony in a sense.

DC Talk has had countless hits on the Christian Radio charts. Means nothing to the mainstream. And that doesn't qualify them as "hits" either.

A) Regardless of being released as singles, they still charted. A song can still be considered a hit even if it's not released as a single).

B) That's your analysis, not the perspective of the industry. Many/most rock songs don't chart on the Billboard Hot 100 because there are many more pop/adult contemporary radio stations in the U.S. than there are rock/alternative stations. Any rock song that charts in the top 40 mainstream rock chart is considered a hit by industry standards.

C) How do songs become well known if they weren't hits at one point? Sure, there are exceptions, where songs become popular later on, but their popularity stems from somewhere.

Then all 30 songs on Ramones Mania can be considered "hits". All are well known, maybe not by you, but they are well known.

Black is a great song, not a single but has become a hit over time. Yellow Ledbetter would be another perfect example. Which leads right back to the Ramones Mania thing. Sheena Is A Punk Rocker...hit single-no...hit-yes.

Just like the entire Doors catalog. Many people can rattle off dozens of Doors songs, but they weren't all hit singles. Most of them weren't even singles. Classic rock radio back in the day didn't just play the old hit singles, they'd play any song from the band and then it gave the illusion, so to speak, of them being hits....which again..hit singles-some-yes, most-no...but they've become well known, so they become "hits" over time.

Again, PJ have had 4 mainstream hit singles. Nothing to argue there. That's fact and not perception.

And again, I think PJ are a contender for best American band...certainly top 20.

I would have a hard time agreeing with you that any Ramones song, other than Blitzkrieg Bop and I Wanna Be Sedated, are well known.

And again, it doesn't matter if a song was released as a single, but whether it charted or not. If the song becomes popular enough where it receives repeated airplay on most rock-formatted songs, then most would consider that a hit.

Using your definition, very few rock bands have any hits.

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@ Len

You're right, best is a relative concept. But how myself, and I would imagine the OP, considers the term is as such: musical talent + variety in composition + broad base appeal = best.

Most people consider The Beatles the best rock band of all time because they had a tremendous amount of musical talent, could compose many different styles of songs, and were able to appeal to a broad slice of the music listening public.

It is in that sense that I think a band like the Ramones are extremely overrated within the larger context of America's best band. Sure, they were great at what they did, but their composition was very limited. If that was your thing, then great, but they had little in winning over fans who weren't into the punk sound, unlike a band like The Clash.

And I disagree that their problem was that terrestrial radio wouldn't play their other songs. If they're going to play Blitzkrieg Pop and I Want to Be Sedated, why would they pass on other songs by The Ramones? Not sure what radio is like in the UK, but those two songs have been played fairly regularly for a very long time.

They did win fans of other rock genres. As I stated earlier, The Ramones were held in high regard by metal, new wave, goth, college rock (which was labeled alternative years later), hardcore and industrial fans. They are the only band that I remember from that period that was able to have such a cross section of fans. They were the 1 band that fans of those genres could agree upon without arguing.

Why did radio pass on the rest of their catalog? Who knows, but that can be said about hundreds of successful and/or influential bands. How many hits have Pearl Jam had, for instance? Not many. Why has radio passed on the rest of their catalog? That's just the way it goes.

Smashing Pumpkins are one of the most successful and influential bands of the past 20 years...not many hits though. How many hits have Radiohead had? Maybe they have a bunch of well known songs, as PJ do, as Ramones do, but not legitimate big selling singles. Not every band can be The Beatles or Madonna whom radio and people that bought their 45's embraced. It doesn't make them less talented or less "best".

And on another note, I do not consider The Beatles to be the best rock band of all time. But that's for another thread at another time!

WTF? Pearl Jam didn't have many hits?

They had four monster hits off their first album Ten, (Alive, Even Flow, Jeremy, Black). Then consider the numerous hits that stemmed from their many subsequent releases (Glorified G, Daughter, Elderly Woman, Dissident, Go, Better Man, Not For You, Corduroy, Hail Hail, Do The Evolution, Wishlist, Who Are You, Off He Goes). And that's just their first four albums.

Seriously, what the fuck you smoking?

Those songs you listed aren't hits. They are well known songs.

Alive, Jeremy, Even Flow, Last Kiss are their hit singles

No, they're songs that were ranked by Billboard, most of which were top 40 on the mainstream rock and modern rock charts. Most songs are considered hits if they hit the top 40 of the rock charts.

Black was not a single. Nor was Glorified G (thank fuck).

They have had 4 top 40 hits on the mainstream charts. All the other genre charts mean fuck all. That's a way of spinning things into thinking they were hits when they were not. That's sort of like the one trick pony thing you mentioned...they have hits on modern rock radio but nowhere else. Kinda one trick pony in a sense.

DC Talk has had countless hits on the Christian Radio charts. Means nothing to the mainstream. And that doesn't qualify them as "hits" either.

A) Regardless of being released as singles, they still charted. A song can still be considered a hit even if it's not released as a single).

B) That's your analysis, not the perspective of the industry. Many/most rock songs don't chart on the Billboard Hot 100 because there are many more pop/adult contemporary radio stations in the U.S. than there are rock/alternative stations. Any rock song that charts in the top 40 mainstream rock chart is considered a hit by industry standards.

C) How do songs become well known if they weren't hits at one point? Sure, there are exceptions, where songs become popular later on, but their popularity stems from somewhere.

Then all 30 songs on Ramones Mania can be considered "hits". All are well known, maybe not by you, but they are well known.

Black is a great song, not a single but has become a hit over time. Yellow Ledbetter would be another perfect example. Which leads right back to the Ramones Mania thing. Sheena Is A Punk Rocker...hit single-no...hit-yes.

Just like the entire Doors catalog. Many people can rattle off dozens of Doors songs, but they weren't all hit singles. Most of them weren't even singles. Classic rock radio back in the day didn't just play the old hit singles, they'd play any song from the band and then it gave the illusion, so to speak, of them being hits....which again..hit singles-some-yes, most-no...but they've become well known, so they become "hits" over time.

Again, PJ have had 4 mainstream hit singles. Nothing to argue there. That's fact and not perception.

And again, I think PJ are a contender for best American band...certainly top 20.

I would have a hard time agreeing with you that any Ramones song, other than Blitzkrieg Bop and I Wanna Be Sedated, are well known.

And again, it doesn't matter if a song was released as a single, but whether it charted or not. If the song becomes popular enough where it receives repeated airplay on most rock-formatted songs, then most would consider that a hit.

Using your definition, very few rock bands have any hits.

you completely misunderstood what I said about hits....

I am agreeing with your assessment that a song that gets repeated airplay on radio over time can be considered a hit, whether it's released as a single or not...but if you want to talk released singles and where they chart as the definition of a hit, that's a different story. Two completely different animals

I could list well known Ramones songs ... and I will....and then you're going to say they're not well known...and we will do this over and over again, I guess

Blitzkrieg Bop

Sheena Is A Punk Rocker

Pet Sematary

I Wanna Be Sedated

Psycho Therapy

Rockaway Beach

Rock N Roll High School

Do You Remember Rock N Roll Radio

Bonzo Goes To Bitburg

The KKK Took My Baby Away

Somebody Put Something In My Drink

I Wanna Be Your Boyfriend

I Believe In Miracles---which PJ covered btw

Needles And Pins

Teenage Lobotomy

Beat On The Brat

Commando

We're A Happy Family

Chinese Rock

Howling At The Moon

all of those are well known songs...

that is akin to listing well known songs by any band....maybe some of them are known to the band's fans more than the mainstream but are still fairly well known, maybe some are hits, maybe some are radio staples...lots of different factors...

Edited by Sixes
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I'll use The Doors as an example of a band with more well known songs than actual hit singles...but again, the well known songs being played over and over again for years on classic rock radio has made them "hits" without them being hits in the first place...

Here's The Doors top 40 hits: Light My Fire, People Are Strange, Love Me Two Times, The Unknown Soldier, Hello I Love You, Touch Me, Love Her Madly, Riders On The Storm

These songs were not released as singles---The End, When The Music's Over, Strange Days, Not To Touch The Earth, Roadhouse Blues, Waiting For The Sun, The Crystal Ship, Alabama Song, Back Door Man, Moonlight Drive, Five To One, Peace Frog, LA Woman...and the list goes on and on....all of them are well known and over time have become "hits".

And this is where we agree ( I think ) on hits...there's the actual released charted type and the radio played type...


You must be a huge Ramones fan. I'd be hard pressed to identify more than three of those songs and I listen to a lot of music.

I am a fan of the Ramones sure...huge? not really...can't say I've listened to them in well over 15 years aside from the odd track here and there

I too am a fan of a lot of music. I own over 50,000 albums (not a typo)

Maybe you should listen to more Ramones then :)

Maybe you'll discover some songs and albums that you like by them instead of just thinking they are about Blitzkrieg Bop and I Wanna Be Sedated.

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MC5 coulda been a contender for the list...maybe they'd squeak in the top 50

Top 10 more like!

You must be a huge Ramones fan. I'd be hard pressed to identify more than three of those songs and I listen to a lot of music.

I can identify every last one :D Most of em have been in film soundtracks too.

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I'll use The Doors as an example of a band with more well known songs than actual hit singles...but again, the well known songs being played over and over again for years on classic rock radio has made them "hits" without them being hits in the first place...

Here's The Doors top 40 hits: Light My Fire, People Are Strange, Love Me Two Times, The Unknown Soldier, Hello I Love You, Touch Me, Love Her Madly, Riders On The Storm

These songs were not released as singles---The End, When The Music's Over, Strange Days, Not To Touch The Earth, Roadhouse Blues, Waiting For The Sun, The Crystal Ship, Alabama Song, Back Door Man, Moonlight Drive, Five To One, Peace Frog, LA Woman...and the list goes on and on....all of them are well known and over time have become "hits".

And this is where we agree ( I think ) on hits...there's the actual released charted type and the radio played type...

You must be a huge Ramones fan. I'd be hard pressed to identify more than three of those songs and I listen to a lot of music.

I am a fan of the Ramones sure...huge? not really...can't say I've listened to them in well over 15 years aside from the odd track here and there

I too am a fan of a lot of music. I own over 50,000 albums (not a typo)

Maybe you should listen to more Ramones then :)

Maybe you'll discover some songs and albums that you like by them instead of just thinking they are about Blitzkrieg Bop and I Wanna Be Sedated.

Where I take issue with your perspective relates to the official single component. I'd rather surmise the popularity of any given rock song and consider it a hit based on the frequency it's played on rock-formatted radio stations and song charts than on whether someone from the label decided it warranted an official single release. A song like Black, which as you noted wasn't released as an official single (even had Eddie phoning radio stations ensuring that the radio company didn't officially release anything), still received a tremendous amount of airplay because it was incredibly popular. At that point, who cares whether it was an official release or not? It's still charting. Imagine how the song might have charted had it actually received label and band support? And then consider Yellow Ledbetter, which wasn't even released on any official album until 2006, but still charted well in '94 when a majority of the band's fans got wind of it. So again, I consider your perspective on what constitute a "hit" song as being too narrow.

As for the Ramones, I've tried. I can take about two or three songs and then the sound starts to wear on me. There's just not enough diversity from song to song, and other than a few of the songs (I Wanna Be Sedated, Judy is a Punk), the melodies don't do much for me. As funny as this might sound, their music for me sounds like a pale imitation of some of the great early doo-wop rock and roll artists of the 1950s and later bands like The Beach Boys. I think as a statement or rebuttal to what was going on at the time the Ramones were important, but as an actual music act, I don't consider them to be the towering giants that others make them out to be.

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I'll use The Doors as an example of a band with more well known songs than actual hit singles...but again, the well known songs being played over and over again for years on classic rock radio has made them "hits" without them being hits in the first place...

Here's The Doors top 40 hits: Light My Fire, People Are Strange, Love Me Two Times, The Unknown Soldier, Hello I Love You, Touch Me, Love Her Madly, Riders On The Storm

These songs were not released as singles---The End, When The Music's Over, Strange Days, Not To Touch The Earth, Roadhouse Blues, Waiting For The Sun, The Crystal Ship, Alabama Song, Back Door Man, Moonlight Drive, Five To One, Peace Frog, LA Woman...and the list goes on and on....all of them are well known and over time have become "hits".

And this is where we agree ( I think ) on hits...there's the actual released charted type and the radio played type...

You must be a huge Ramones fan. I'd be hard pressed to identify more than three of those songs and I listen to a lot of music.

I am a fan of the Ramones sure...huge? not really...can't say I've listened to them in well over 15 years aside from the odd track here and there

I too am a fan of a lot of music. I own over 50,000 albums (not a typo)

Maybe you should listen to more Ramones then :)

Maybe you'll discover some songs and albums that you like by them instead of just thinking they are about Blitzkrieg Bop and I Wanna Be Sedated.

Where I take issue with your perspective relates to the official single component. I'd rather surmise the popularity of any given rock song and consider it a hit based on the frequency it's played on rock-formatted radio stations and song charts than on whether someone from the label decided it warranted an official single release. A song like Black, which as you noted wasn't released as an official single (even had Eddie phoning radio stations ensuring that the radio company didn't officially release anything), still received a tremendous amount of airplay because it was incredibly popular. At that point, who cares whether it was an official release or not? It's still charting. Imagine how the song might have charted had it actually received label and band support? And then consider Yellow Ledbetter, which wasn't even released on any official album until 2006, but still charted well in '94 when a majority of the band's fans got wind of it. So again, I consider your perspective on what constitute a "hit" song as being too narrow.

As for the Ramones, I've tried. I can take about two or three songs and then the sound starts to wear on me. There's just not enough diversity from song to song, and other than a few of the songs (I Wanna Be Sedated, Judy is a Punk), the melodies don't do much for me. As funny as this might sound, their music for me sounds like a pale imitation of some of the great early doo-wop rock and roll artists of the 1950s and later bands like The Beach Boys. I think as a statement or rebuttal to what was going on at the time the Ramones were important, but as an actual music act, I don't consider them to be the towering giants that others make them out to be.

I have agreed with your take on hits, have no idea why you still think my perspective is different from yours. It's the same. I have said that a song can be considered a hit without it being released as a single and that's what you're saying and used Yellow Ledbetter as an example and The Doors as well to indicate what a hit is...which is your take on what a hit is.

But...my opinion on hits is that I don't care one way or another. Whether a band has hits means nothing to me as far as the greatness of the band or their influence and impact or if I will like their music or not. One band has more hits than another? Means absolutely nothing to me. And I don't understand why it does to some people. It's not an indication of the talent or the greatness of the song. It's just a popularity contest. And it's a narrow field. Not every band or artist gets to play on the same level as others who have the big labels and promotion behind them.

The Ramones absolutely sound like a doo-wop band...mixed in with garage rock and the girl group sound of the 60's. That is the Ramones sound in a nutshell.

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