1999 album?

[Estranged Coma]

So I read here that Axl was good to go and rdy to release an album in 1999 2000? And one of the dudes they got to work with him I forget which basically said this kinda sucks only one or two decent tunes. At that moment we as fans were fuked lol for years to come. What songs do we know to be 100% completed at that point?

Basically someone plz tell me what that album was to our knowledge.

[Rdeyahlxp]

Bob Ezrin said that.

[TheSeeker]

Bob Ezrin's story:

http://www.gunsnfnroses.com/index.php?/topic/22400-bob-ezrin-talks-about-chinese-democracy-and-axl-roses-entourage/

I’ve read that you told him he had about 2 ½ songs or 3 ½ songs. Something like that.

Yeah, I probably did. It started off when Jimmy Iovine (ed: producer, chairman of Interscope/ Geffen) asked me for a big favour.

They were stuck, they were stuck in a studio in North Hollywood for years with Roy Thomas Baker (ed: Queen’s producer), and nothing was happening. They were paying enormous rental bills and they were paying people to sit around the studio waiting for Axl to show up and it was just a disaster.

I agreed to go there immediately and listen to a bunch of stuff. What I heard was – I don’t know how to say this without be insulting, I don’t want to be insulting because he worked very hard on it – but what I heard was something that he had painted over too many times. So, by the time I heard it, the original content was lost and it was just a highly produced piece of something…

Anyway, I agreed to help out if Axl would agree to work with me, which he did. He had the idea that the only person who could finish the album with him was me, based on what I don’t know. I came, I listened, I said to him I will listen and will give you notes we will see together. I spent a lot of time listening. I went to see Jimmy Iovine and I gave him my perception of the situation, including the fact that they had to get out of Rumbo Studios immediately – not because Rumbo is a bad studio, it’s a wonderful studio – but because they needed to be closer to the scrutiny of the record company and Jimmy’s team, so there could be at least some measure of control. And I recommended we move them to the Village Recorder in West Hollywood. So, they did that, and moved everybody there.

I had to wait to talk to Axl because he avoided me. He was nervous about hearing what I had to say. We finally met, on a night when my wife – who was then my girlfriend – came down from Toronto to visit me and we were having a dinner with friends at my house. She was cooking when I got a phone call from Jimmy Iovine saying that I needed to come meet Axl and I said “I can’t tonight. I’m booked”. And Jimmy replied saying “ok” (laughs). No he didn’t. When he wants something, he really knows how to get it. Anyway, he basically guilt-tripped me and I told him “Ok, I will be there at 8pm and I will leave there at 8.30, whether Axl shows up or not”, because that was Axl. Because last time we had an appointment at 10pm and Axl showed up at 2 in the morning. “So tell Axl that’s it”.

I went to the restaurant at 8 and a team of Axl supporters and hangers-on showed up and joined me at the table – and no Axl. Axl finally came about 8:25 (laughs). Anyway, I told him basically what you’ve heard. I didn’t tell him “you have 2 ½ songs” and when he sat down, he started saying me that he has finished the record. And I said “Axl, we are not ready to mix this record. This record isn’t ready to be mixed”.

I said “there are two great songs on it and I know that you’re capable of more, that’s the reason why I’m here. You’re such a great talent and I would do you a disservice if I didn’t tell you the truth, which is that most of the songs aren’t great. But I‘m very happy to help you get there and I believe that it’s possible, if you would like to continue to work on the record, to make it better”.

He said “I don’t agree with that. We are ready to mix”. And I told him “you have my number, if you change your mind let me know, but I have a dinner party at home now and I had to go”.

I left and I haven’t heard from him since. It was years later when it came out.

Edited April 12, 2015 by TheSeeker

[niceguy]

This Ezrin guy is one of the few sane characters in the saga of this disaster "Round Two" of Axl's.

What he said is 100% true: there are some glints of greatness on ChiDem, but it really was painted over way too many times, sonically. As an audio engineer and freelance producer, I agree totally.

And I love how this guy didn't fall on his knees and worship Axl the way so many characters in the story did. Just read that letter which Doug wrote to Axl. It's like a former slave begging to come back to his master. He all but gave him fellatio in that letter.

Meanwhile, Ezrin said, here's thirty minutes of my time. My girl is making dinner, and that's more important than you, Axl.

A lot of people on the forums would do well to adopt a bit of that attitude too.

[gunsfanoldie]

This Ezrin guy is one of the few sane characters in the saga of this disaster "Round Two" of Axl's.

What he said is 100% true: there are some glints of greatness on ChiDem, but it really was painted over way too many times, sonically. As an audio engineer and freelance producer, I agree totally.

And I love how this guy didn't fall on his knees and worship Axl the way so many characters in the story did. Just read that letter which Doug wrote to Axl. It's like a former slave begging to come back to his master. He all but gave him fellatio in that letter.

Meanwhile, Ezrin said, here's thirty minutes of my time. My girl is making dinner, and that's more important than you, Axl.

A lot of people on the forums would do well to adopt a bit of that attitude too.

Completely agree with all of this. Its what I wanted to say days ago and didn't. The Doug letter is just insanely embarrassing. I really wanted to hear what he had to say on that interview that people said was so great, and then I read the letter and thought "nope, never mind. He's just another guy thats completely sucking Axl's dick. Too boring."

Thank God for Ezrin. I've already loved that guy, but his actions in this scenario are exactly what Axl needed. Not that I thought from the beginning that Ezrin and Axl are a good match. I love Ezrin's albums, but look at his stuff from Lou Reed's Berlin, to Alice Cooper's Welcome To My Nightmare, to Pink Floyd's The Wall. I don't think thats what Axl needed. Ezrin has his own style that works with certain people (yes, he also did KISS' Revenge album but thats pretty different from the entire Ezrin catalogue). Whats really sad is that a talented producer like Roy Thomas Baker, someone that by all accounts Axl should have idolized, apparently also couldn't get this to happen either. You would have thought Baker could have been Axl's Ezrin and they could have worked really well together to make a great product. Baker there to help Axl make the record he always wanted to make and Axl trying to impress someone that shaped some of his childhood records.

I'm so happy Ezrin didn't fall for the shit. Its too bad not more people treat Axl like that, a normal human being that can't just jerk people around. Once again, it proves that Axl is the reason an album like Chinese Democracy took 15 years to get released. Cause people like Doug treat him like the baby he is and talented people like Ezrin and Baker get pushed to the side (and in Ezrin's case not even listened to).

[Amir]

Think this was 2000, not '99, RTB came on board in April 2000 and Ezrin came by in autumn that year: http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=3531

[TheSeeker]

Think this was 2000, not '99, RTB came on board in April 2000 and Ezrin came by in autumn that year: http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=3531

The 1999 release date was delayed because Robin left the band that year - Axl told Kurt Loder in 1999 that the album would be released in 2000. So the "Axl was trying to master the album in 2000" timeframe makes sense.

[Amir]

Think this was 2000, not '99, RTB came on board in April 2000 and Ezrin came by in autumn that year: http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=3531

The 1999 release date was delayed because Robin left the band that year - Axl told Kurt Loder in 1999 that the album would be released in 2000. So the "Axl was trying to master the album in 2000" timeframe makes sense.

Considering Bucket joined in Xmas '99, planning to release in 2000 is pretty speedy in Axl-Time. I can't tell when Finck rejoined, mid-2000 maybe?

[Turn_It_Up]

This Ezrin guy is one of the few sane characters in the saga of this disaster "Round Two" of Axl's.

What he said is 100% true: there are some glints of greatness on ChiDem, but it really was painted over way too many times, sonically. As an audio engineer and freelance producer, I agree totally.

And I love how this guy didn't fall on his knees and worship Axl the way so many characters in the story did. Just read that letter which Doug wrote to Axl. It's like a former slave begging to come back to his master. He all but gave him fellatio in that letter.

Meanwhile, Ezrin said, here's thirty minutes of my time. My girl is making dinner, and that's more important than you, Axl.

A lot of people on the forums would do well to adopt a bit of that attitude too.

No doubt. Ezrin was telling Axl like it was and he shoulda stuck with him. Classic case of an artist working too long on the same material and losing all vision and perspective through all the iterations. He really needed a trusted confidante to give him objective feedback and balance that with his tuning, but he'd worked on it so long he didn't want to hear what he perceived as criticism. Became too personal at that point which is always the biggest hindrance.

Too bad, probably woulda been a much stronger record...

Edited April 12, 2015 by Turn_It_Up

[J Dog]

I'd like to hear anything they had from '99-'02. That's was Axl's biggest mistake to me. Not getting things rolling and the album out with that line up.

[Crowebar]

Easy to become tunnel-visioned. Especially when surrounded by 'Yes' men...

[ludurigan]

wow

[username]

So I read here that Axl was good to go and rdy to release an album in 1999 2000? And one of the dudes they got to work with him I forget which basically said this kinda sucks only one or two decent tunes. At that moment we as fans were fuked lol for years to come. What songs do we know to be 100% completed at that point?

Basically someone plz tell me what that album was to our knowledge.

IRS, TWAT and Catcher leaked in their 1999/2000 versions. Which, incidentally, are MUCH better imo than the CD versions. Judging by the live shows from 2001 CD, The Blues (SOD), Madagascar and Rhiad were also ready to go by then.

[Estranged Coma]

This Ezrin guy is one of the few sane characters in the saga of this disaster "Round Two" of Axl's.

What he said is 100% true: there are some glints of greatness on ChiDem, but it really was painted over way too many times, sonically. As an audio engineer and freelance producer, I agree totally.

And I love how this guy didn't fall on his knees and worship Axl the way so many characters in the story did. Just read that letter which Doug wrote to Axl. It's like a former slave begging to come back to his master. He all but gave him fellatio in that letter.

Meanwhile, Ezrin said, here's thirty minutes of my time. My girl is making dinner, and that's more important than you, Axl.

A lot of people on the forums would do well to adopt a bit of that attitude too.

But wasn't ezrin listening to complete different versions of the songs we got? A lot of people hail the first leaks as superior to the album versions of songs, so why couldn't that album have been good enough? For one most albums don't have great songs top to bottom, not even appetite. If he saw 2 or 3 good songs why not work to make those really good and then have the rest as solid tracks. A 8-10 track record in 2000 with 3 really good songs to me sounds like a no brainer to release. Would have probably sold more then Chinese as the climate for album sales is much better. Would have came out before VR and greatest hits albums. Which to me took up a lot of a new gnr albums sales.

[Estranged Coma]

So I read here that Axl was good to go and rdy to release an album in 1999 2000? And one of the dudes they got to work with him I forget which basically said this kinda sucks only one or two decent tunes. At that moment we as fans were fuked lol for years to come. What songs do we know to be 100% completed at that point?

Basically someone plz tell me what that album was to our knowledge.

IRS, TWAT and Catcher leaked in their 1999/2000 versions. Which, incidentally, are MUCH better imo than the CD versions. Judging by the live shows from 2001 CD, The Blues (SOD), Madagascar and Rhiad were also ready to go by then.

That's 7 songs. IMO catcher and twat are among the top songs on Chinese. so if those were better in 2000 I bet they could carry an album. Add a more striped down the blues and that's 3 rly cool songs. Irs has the chance to be a solid rocker maddy is maddy some like it some don't solid album track CD was shorter and I hear people say it was better in pre album form. Rhiad is album filler. Add two more album filler type rockers (maybe you get a good simple rocker) and you got an album probably of the same quality that we got or better (if you believe in the leaks superiority)

[Rovim]

I like the album we've got. It's the real version. I also like the demo version of Catcher. Maybe the best example for me of Axl overdoing it.

Some of the classic feel of it and the vibe was lost. The version we got is still great, but not as charming.

[TheSeeker]

I think Protools existing was the biggest burden to this album - Axl editing Brian May's solo to the point where Brian didn't even recognize it was absolutely inexcusable.

I wonder if the demo that leaked of Catcher was Brian's solo as he played it, or one of Axl's edits?

Edited April 12, 2015 by TheSeeker

[Rovim]

I think Protools existing was the biggest burden to this album - Axl editing Brian May's solo to the point where Brian didn't even recognize it was absolutely inexcusable.

I wonder if the demo that leaked of Catcher was Brian's solo as he played it, or one of Axl's edits?

The solo on the leaked Catcher demo is Axl and his engineer taking a throwaway take of Brian as Axl called it and rebuilding it really. That's the version that was unrecognized to Brian when he first heard it according to Axl.

And it is excusable imo: the solo on the demo is great.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Rovim

[TheSeeker]

I think Protools existing was the biggest burden to this album - Axl editing Brian May's solo to the point where Brian didn't even recognize it was absolutely inexcusable.

I wonder if the demo that leaked of Catcher was Brian's solo as he played it, or one of Axl's edits?

The solo on the leaked Catcher demo is Axl and his engineer taking a throwaway take of Brian as Axl called it and rebuilding it really. That's the version that was unrecognized to Brian when he first heard it according to Axl.

And it is excusable imo: the solo on the demo is great.

But think about that- Axl copied and pasted guitar parts for 10 years instead of trusting his players to do a competent job.

[Estranged Coma]

I like the album we've got. It's the real version. I also like the demo version of Catcher. Maybe the best example for me of Axl overdoing it.

Some of the classic feel of it and the vibe was lost. The version we got is still great, but not as charming.[

As do I, but we would have probably gotten at least 2 records by now if one album was released in 2000. It wouldn't have had to live up to the dreaded hype of being the greatest album ever. So a solid album from Axl in 2000 probably would has done good enough to keep him motivated to keep working. He associates the release of Chinese as one of the worst periods of his life, I'm sure this has had some direct correlation to the lack of music since then. Why go through it again when there's no light at the end of the tunnel?

[Estranged Coma]

I think Protools existing was the biggest burden to this album - Axl editing Brian May's solo to the point where Brian didn't even recognize it was absolutely inexcusable.

I wonder if the demo that leaked of Catcher was Brian's solo as he played it, or one of Axl's edits?

The solo on the leaked Catcher demo is Axl and his engineer taking a throwaway take of Brian as Axl called it and rebuilding it really. That's the version that was unrecognized to Brian when he first heard it according to Axl.

And it is excusable imo: the solo on the demo is great.

But think about that- Axl copied and pasted guitar parts for 10 years instead of trusting his players to do a competent job.

Indeed, and that's kinda the point of this thread to look at how not getting the album out in 2000 screwed Axl and more importantly screwed over us gnr fans. In his mind his project was done, he was happy with the art he created, and someone went and shit on it. (wasn't that bad what ezrin told him but this is axl rose so something that simple gets taken to heart in a mind like his)

Looking back I think Axl was correct that the album he created was ready. It wasn't a masterpiece but wasn't suppose to be. It's almost unanimous on this forum that the leaks were good enough or even better then the album versions. So absolutely nothing was done for the most part that made axls album better by waiting.

[Amir]

Indeed, and that's kinda the point of this thread to look at how not getting the album out in 2000 screwed Axl and more importantly screwed over us gnr fans. In his mind his project was done, he was happy with the art he created, and someone went and shit on it. (wasn't that bad what ezrin told him but this is axl rose so something that simple gets taken to heart in a mind like his)

The fact he went to Ezrin in the first place shows he was not completely sure of himself. If he had 100% faith in the material, he would have released it in 2000. Instead, he took RTB's suggestions to rerecord the same parts over and over again as Tommy said, and also probably thought Ezrin was right about not enough album-worthy material being there (Better probably didn't have vocals until 2006, Shackler's definitely didn't have any until at least '07).

[Estranged Coma]

Indeed, and that's kinda the point of this thread to look at how not getting the album out in 2000 screwed Axl and more importantly screwed over us gnr fans. In his mind his project was done, he was happy with the art he created, and someone went and shit on it. (wasn't that bad what ezrin told him but this is axl rose so something that simple gets taken to heart in a mind like his)

The fact he went to Ezrin in the first place shows he was not completely sure of himself. If he had 100% faith in the material, he would have released it in 2000. Instead, he took RTB's suggestions to rerecord the same parts over and over again as Tommy said, and also probably thought Ezrin was right about not enough album-worthy material being there (Better probably didn't have vocals until 2006, Shackler's definitely didn't have any until at least '07).

I think he had enough for a 8-10 song album? Also I thought he specifically went to ezrin wanting him to mix the album? Shacklers is not needed it's cool but has a small population which will like it. Better is awesome but could have been the second albums single. Sorry isn't gona be a hit neither was scraped or ITW. It seems to me the core of the first album was already done in 2000. Is sorry itw better shack TIL worth 8 years of wait?

[gnfnrs1972]

The final product was fine. The album that was supposedly turned down was probly fine. These idiots running the music business have no better taste than you and I. Axl ruined his own career from not giving his fanbase his vision of nugnr, poor live singing perfomances, and most of all cancelled shows and very late starts. The VMA ' s probly hurt him alot also.

[wasted]

Beavan thought they had a record too. That's 99 record. I think this is the one Zutaut said didn't have have a hit but was a good record but the label wanted to sell 20 mil records. It was probably too industrial sounding for want of a better term or idea.

Then RTB re-recorded everything in 2000. Then Axl was ready to mix. Then Bob "the Yoko Ono of CD" Ezrin came in and said not ready.

Although in some way he might have his point of view. It's like one producing meeting another. RTB is the Queen guy, then The Wall guy is called to pass judgment? And Axl put stock in Ezrin. If he used him it would make sense to give it some Wall. But Ezrin wasn't used.

Costanzo was brought in to work on it.

Like Tommy said it didn't need the instrumentation in 99 or to spend 10 mil re-recording with RTB.

But the mystery is which tracks were ready. Was Better the champion in 99? Maybe not I'd say Chi dem, the Blues, Madagascar were the singles. Other songs came into their own. Freese said he had 4 A listed songs at some point.

Basically the label were enabling Axl up until 2004. Maybe Axl was willing to walk away if it wasn't right so...

I think Protools existing was the biggest burden to this album - Axl editing Brian May's solo to the point where Brian didn't even recognize it was absolutely inexcusable.

I wonder if the demo that leaked of Catcher was Brian's solo as he played it, or one of Axl's edits?

The solo on the leaked Catcher demo is Axl and his engineer taking a throwaway take of Brian as Axl called it and rebuilding it really. That's the version that was unrecognized to Brian when he first heard it according to Axl.

And it is excusable imo: the solo on the demo is great.

But think about that- Axl copied and pasted guitar parts for 10 years instead of trusting his players to do a competent job.

Axl is a one man punk rock NIN.