Dear Fermanager,: A Retrospective

[Słash]

Great post. The moderators do a great job on this forum.

And now you will get all the likes by the mods.

[Rustycage]

Those are two different matters. How Axl conducts his state of affairs are his business. How this forum operates and facilitates conversation is the business of the staff and those who participate.

You just claimed to not support false narratives, but you are actively supporting a man who perpetuates false narratives on behalf of Axl Rose.

And you are supporting him by re-framing narratives in his favor.

You are a liar.

This is getting ridiculous. I disagree with the argument that the GNR fanbase is nothing more than assholes with chips on their shoulders. What does that have to do with whatever Axl is trying to achieve? Nobody is saying you can't call Axl out on things you personally disagree on. Nobody is prevent anyone here from challenging Fernando on anything he has said. All that we're trying to do is keep things a little more respectful in how we talk to one another.

You are confused.

A man can't take his soon to be mother of his first child to a vacation without you guys getting back on the train of hatred?

lol. Noted. Sad. Or was it the other way around?

Noted.

lol. Sad.

Is that how long it takes you to come up with the same lame posts?

Those are 3 of his last 5 posts. All of them are either insults towards other members or stirring the pot about the skepticism.

Yeah, guys. It's not like there's a group of people saying you were over the top or anything.

You were given a point by point list (twice) of exactly what was removed.

10 posts in 20 pages, the great majority of which was users insulting other users.

It went 20 pages in what, like 30 minutes after he showed up?

The quotes by Fernando you provided were in response to some of the uglier things said towards him. Do I think they were the proper way to respond in terms of PR? Not really. But to suggestion that they were unprovoked insults is to ignore the context in which they were made.

I've gone through pages 30 through 50. Again, nothing was removed that wasn't repetitive, wasn't insulting, and was clogging up the thread.

1 of those responses was about this topic being started by magisme. The second was in regards to the 2-4 months poll being posted and perhaps the other was in response but when you incite attacks, playing innocent doesn't really work.

Just curious, isn't there a mod log or something you guys introduced?

Also, are you able to see deleted posts?

[Słash]

Rusty, can you be more specific about which post of yours was removed? like what did you say?

[Rustycage]

Rusty, can you be more specific about which post of yours was removed? like what did you say?

Like I said, it's not about MY posts. I learned after the first comment was swept away to not stir the pot and ask anything important.

When people started pointing out the ass kissing is around the time several different posters' posts were going bye bye. And whether or not the mods can admit it, that is a clear "Fuck you" towards people that were not breaking the rules and were asking legitimate questions.

[Janis]

"In the land of no news and total disrespect, cracking jokes and bashing is what has killed time for over a decade."

This quote says it all. It's nothing to do with gnr or Axl. It doesn't matter what genre or who it is for example Slash, Britney Spears, or say Adele- look if they released very little music and commincated rarely with fans then their fans would be doing the same. Slash's fans get to discuss his music on their boards coz he makes albums regularly. If Axl released music every 4 years or so then there would be something to talk about. You can't discuss 12 songs for over 10 years. It's obvious that people are complaining coz of lack of music and justifiably. It's a hard band to support. Fernando understands this and actually I feel sorry for the guy. I sensed his own frustration at not being able to share more and move the band forward. I was surprised at him saying he's gotten ideas at how to improve things from here. It opened by eyes to TB. I genuinely think now that they are doing the best they can but Axl is the stumbling block. He won't move forward. I got the sense that Axl is difficult to deal with. At one point Fernando said he gets pissed off at him at times. Did anyone else sense that with Fernando?

Edited August 13, 2015 by Janis

[Apollo]

I think we need to go back to the begining. Fernando looked into this thread (not his official discussion thread) Then he posted "train of hatred" Is he expecting congratulations after such a comment?

Mods claim we don´t have the right to bash him but he has the right to insult us? I was pissed off and so were other people like magisme. We reacted in diferent ways. I guess because we have diffent personalities and different ways to express how we feel.

First of all that comment by Fernando is bullshit. Nobody here hates Axl nor him. Second he is just like Axl. They want us to be yes man and say everything Axl does is perfect and wonderful when that´s not the case at all!

Sorry but it is Fernando the one showing intolerance, inmaturity and arrogance. I think Fernando should apologise for the comment if he wants us to show him good maners and respect

Saying "train of hatred" isn't necessarily bashing. It's getting something wrong, but it doesn't serve any basis to launch a barrage of insults back. Some people were able to challenge his post appropriately. Others were not. It's fine to say we all act in different ways, but your own personal behavioural standards aren't want we base the rules on here. Nobody on staff is saying Fernando's comment wasn't bullshit. What we are saying is that there's a right way and a wrong way in responding to it. Telling him off and including a personal dig is the wrong way. Challenging him on the merits of the conversation is the right way.

Well please also tell him there is a right way and a wrong way to express his feelings and his thoughts.

That is a very good point.

Fernando (and the GnR camp) can make a comment that is just a general or sweeping statement - calling fans racists, telling people to fuck off, saying the hate train. But then people respond to the comment, they are responding to a SPECIFIC person.

Fernando can say there is racism on this forum, as long as he doesn't specifically call one person a racist.

An insult is an insult, regardless if you are directing it towards one person or a group of people.

So maybe the Mods look at those comments differently. Which, imo, they shouldn't.

And to be fair, I know it must be hell to moderate a forum with this many people. I don't envy any of the mods and think they do as good of a job as anybody could.

Again, repeating myself. But maybe Fernando's "position" should have been identified before he started posting.

Was he here as an official representative of GnR's management team? If he was, then he should have answered more questions about the band.

But if he would have came on and said I'm not here in an official capacity, I'm just here as somebody who works with Axl and is his pretend son, so I'll answer general questions about the band, but I'm not giving you any specific band related details.

That would have set the stage right off the bat and let people know what kind of questions he would be answering.

For fucks sake Apollo, we've been over this numerous times. I stressed that in all likelihood he meant discrimination, not racism. Again, english isn't Fernando's first language so understand if he uses the wrong word in certain contexts.

And he didn't tell anyone to fuck off in his conversation a few days ago. Someone who controls GNR's Facebook did and it's not even certain that it was directed towards the fanbase. But let's assume that Fernando did and he meant it towards the fans. It was how long ago? Does that mean everyone gets a swipe at him if and when he posts here? Here's a better idea; if you're that outraged about Fernando potentially telling fans to go fuck themselves on Facebook, why not respond on Facebook? But again, you're making assumptions on matters and pretending that they're facts.

I don't get why you liked my post that addressed many of the points you previously raised and then raise them again. Once again, it was made known at Fernando's presence here was informal at best. That the conversation was meant to be casual and not meant to serve as a true Q&A. He never stated this explicitly, but the point was made for him by myself and many other members.

This point was reiterated numerous times through the thread. You couldn't miss it.

Look at what you are doing.

He said one thing, but he surely meant another.

The FB thing probably wasn't endorsed by management. But if it was.....it was awhile back, so we should just forget about it.

He never stated explicitly, but the point was made for him by myself.

And then you say that he isn't your "source" and you aren't trying to protect him. Hell, you even actually said that with the way people were acting you can understand why band management doesn't come post more often. If that is true, then why don't they post all the time at HTGTH? Jarmo is part of their inner circle and they don't post on his site. So to blame the comments on here for keeping Fernando and company away? Ludicrous.

This conversation really isn't going anywhere.

You are the owner of the site and can run it any way you choose.

And, of course, maybe all the long time posters who disagree with what is happening might actually have a point? I think you are being so defensive that you are shutting down valid concerns people are bringing up.

[Janis]

Great post. The moderators do a great job on this forum.

And now you will get all the likes by the mods.

I mainly agree with the moderators saying that it's ok to complain about band at times when it's justifiable but not to be aggressive like telling Fernando or someone to fuck off. I don't care if people love what the band do or not. It's ok to agree to disagree on any topic here. It's not about getting likes by the mods.

I guess after seeing this thread, there are less chances of him returning. But yeah we should act civil towards with each other, using abusive language will just create negativity.

It won't matter that much if he will return or not, life moves on, IF something has to happen, then it will happen.

I know the frustration of the fans, all I can say is that just don't see him as a Manager of GNR, just see him as some random guy who just knows stuff which he won't tell, I guess all we can get from him some interesting facts about the CD tour which is happening since 2001, maybe about some past shows, about bucket or Robin and things like that.

This

[Słash]

Rusty, can you be more specific about which post of yours was removed? like what did you say?

Like I said, it's not about MY posts. I learned after the first comment was swept away to not stir the pot and ask anything important.

When people started pointing out the ass kissing is around the time several different posters' posts were going bye bye. And whether or not the mods can admit it, that is a clear "Fuck you" towards people that were not breaking the rules and were asking legitimate questions.

I guess we should just wait and see what happens next time if Fernando comes back, I have to agree that many posts were removed which they found ridiculous but many were also not removed which were more ridiculous. Downzy agreed they were strict at the beginning, all I can say that lets wait till the next time

In terms of being abusive or Racist, yeah these types of things should be removed Immediately.

But I agree and understand the frustration of Apollo and Padme and others, what they have said is totally correct and as a fan I feel the same as them. Everyone should be treated equally and posts should be removed in a fair manner.

[Kittiara]

I don't think that the moderation is over the top here. It's pretty straightforward, really. Share your thoughts all you want, but don't attack or insult other members. That's fair enough. And no, I am not sucking up by saying that. I moderate two large websites, and know what a balancing act it can be. Don't take action and people will complain. Do take action and you're a Nazi etc. Bottom line is, every forum has to have some basic rules, and this particular forum is moderated with an extremely light touch. On one of the places I moderate, you can't even say the word "fuck", and the other has areas where you can't even call yourself an idiot, because it's seen as derogatory. So, this is a haven of free speech in comparison.

The thing with free speech, however, is that it does carry with it some personal responsibility. And you often achieve better results by making your point in a constructive manner, than by flinging around insults. You reap what you sow. Or not, as the case may be with a band that operates in a completely different manner than other bands. But if I were Fernando, I'd be more likely to return if people were reasonable, than if I were subjected to personal insults. Yes, he may be the manager of a band, but he's still a person, too, and few people enjoy being called all sorts of names. I think that the enjoyment of that is a pretty niche fetish...

[downzy]

Those are two different matters. How Axl conducts his state of affairs are his business. How this forum operates and facilitates conversation is the business of the staff and those who participate.

You just claimed to not support false narratives, but you are actively supporting a man who perpetuates false narratives on behalf of Axl Rose.

And you are supporting him by re-framing narratives in his favor.

You are a liar.

This is getting ridiculous. I disagree with the argument that the GNR fanbase is nothing more than assholes with chips on their shoulders. What does that have to do with whatever Axl is trying to achieve? Nobody is saying you can't call Axl out on things you personally disagree on. Nobody is prevent anyone here from challenging Fernando on anything he has said. All that we're trying to do is keep things a little more respectful in how we talk to one another.

You are confused.

A man can't take his soon to be mother of his first child to a vacation without you guys getting back on the train of hatred?

lol. Noted. Sad. Or was it the other way around?

Noted.

lol. Sad.

Is that how long it takes you to come up with the same lame posts?

Those are 3 of his last 5 posts. All of them are either insults towards other members or stirring the pot about the skepticism.

Yeah, guys. It's not like there's a group of people saying you were over the top or anything.

You were given a point by point list (twice) of exactly what was removed.

10 posts in 20 pages, the great majority of which was users insulting other users.

It went 20 pages in what, like 30 minutes after he showed up?

The quotes by Fernando you provided were in response to some of the uglier things said towards him. Do I think they were the proper way to respond in terms of PR? Not really. But to suggestion that they were unprovoked insults is to ignore the context in which they were made.

I've gone through pages 30 through 50. Again, nothing was removed that wasn't repetitive, wasn't insulting, and was clogging up the thread.

1 of those responses was about this topic being started by magisme. The second was in regards to the 2-4 months poll being posted and perhaps the other was in response but when you incite attacks, playing innocent doesn't really work.

Just curious, isn't there a mod log or something you guys introduced?

Also, are you able to see deleted posts?

But his responses were directed at things that were said, not at a particular person. He's not calling the person sad, he's saying what the person said or did as sad.

Granted, I'm not sure that's the kind of language I would use in addressing other people's posts, but it's far from insulting.

Yes, there is a mod log. Supporters and Club Members can see it.

And yes, we can see deleted posts. However, as a general policy we do not actually delete posts. We hide them so that other moderators can take note. If you're talking about posts deleted by users/members, yes, we can see those as well.

[RussTCB]

And, of course, maybe all the long time posters who disagree with what is happening might actually have a point? I think you are being so defensive that you are shutting down valid concerns people are bringing up.

Here's the thing: there's a giant gap between what people are claiming and what happened. In case you didn't see it here's two breakdowns, one for the first 20 pages of the original thread, the second is for the next 10 pages. So a recap of what was removed in the first 30 pages of the original thread:

"I'm going through the original thread right now and I had to get to Page 3 before I found even one post that was removed. The post was a user insulting another user for no reason whatsoever and had nothing to do with GN'R. The next post that were removed are 2 pages later, which was one telling Fernando to get the fuck out of here. The next thing removed after that was on Page 9 where a user was insulting another user for no reason. The next posts removed after that are 3 on Page 11 where 2 users were insulting each other one user was insulting everyone posting in the thread. Page 12 has one removed post where someone was again insulting everyone posting in the thread. Page 13 has one removed post asking Fernando what he had for breakfast. Page 14 has one post removed from a user telling Fernando there's no need for him to be here. Pag 16 has one silly/off topic post removed.

So there's the first 20 pages of a 55 page thread, of which a grand total of 10 posts were removed/hidden, 7 of which were users insulting each other or everyone posting in the thread, 3 of which were silly/off topic. Everything else that was posted in those first 20 pages in in-tact, as posted."

"I just scanned the next 10 pages and here's the run down:

Page 21, 3 posts removed for being off topic or insulting other users, Page 25, 1 post removed for being off topic, Page 26, 1 post removed for insulting the forum

Page 27, 2 posts removed for insulting another user, Page 28, 1 post removed for insulting another user

Page 29, 2 posts removed for insulting another user, Page 30, 3 posts removed for not posting in English, 2 post removed for insulting the forum

15 posts removed in 10 pages, all but 2 were removed for various insults of other users."

[Rustycage]

But his responses were directed at things that were said, not at a particular person. He's not calling the person sad, he's saying what the person said or did as sad.

Granted, I'm not sure that's the kind of language I would use in addressing other people's posts, but it's far from insulting.

Yes, there is a mod log. Supporters and Club Members can see it.

And yes, we can see deleted posts. However, as a general policy we do not actually delete posts. We hide them so that other moderators can take note. If you're talking about posts deleted by users/members, yes, we can see those as well.

A man can't take his soon to be mother of his first child to a vacation without you guys getting back on the train of hatred?

lol. Noted. Sad. Or was it the other way around?

Was in regards to magisme's post telling people about this very topic. It wasn't in reply to anything but this topic being shared.

Noted.

lol. Sad.

Wasn't in response to anyone. It has the same tone towards the same person as the other and was due simply to the poll being posted and it's results.

They aren't over the line technically but the guy made it a point to be a wise ass and incite supposed attacks. Like I said. It's passive-aggressive and you guys were being played. Now the guy that responded to those weak jabs was punished for saying something common on this board that no one gives a second thought. The rules were shifted because it was THE Fernando. Simple.

I was talking about posts deleted by mods. If the posts were deleted by the users, then obviously there's not a problem but I doubt they were user deletes since there was a running theme to all of them.(not stupid questions or ass kissing).

Edited August 13, 2015 by Rustycage

[Rustycage]

What is the context of the forum insults? Were they referring to HTGTH or something?

[Słash]

Alfie, a general question, If its 9 or 10 am at your place, tell me what is more ridiculous, if someone asks what you had for breakfast or if you were named after an ABBA song?

[RussTCB]

What is the context of the forum insults? Were they referring to HTGTH or something?

No, they're were insulting this forum or its users. There was one post removed that was insulting another forums users but it wasnt htgth

Alfie, a general question, If its 9 or 10 am at your place, tell me what is more ridiculous, if someone asks what you had for breakfast or if you were named after an ABBA song?

Dude, it's really time to let the "breakfast question" go.

[Słash]

What is the context of the forum insults? Were they referring to HTGTH or something?

No, they're were insulting this forum or its users. There was one post removed that was insulting another forums users but it wasnt htgth

Alfie, a general question, If its 9 or 10 am at your place, tell me what is more ridiculous, if someone asks what you had for breakfast or if you were named after an ABBA song?

Dude, it's really time to let the "breakfast question" go.

Im not complaining about it? I already had a talk with Downzy after that I am not fighting with you or anyone about it. You just did your job as an admin, as a member im just sharing my thoughts?

[Rustycage]

What is the context of the forum insults? Were they referring to HTGTH or something?

No, they're were insulting this forum or its users. There was one post removed that was insulting another forums users but it wasnt htgth

What's the context? Why would they just randomly insult the forum? An insult IS subjective, ya know.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Rustycage

[RussTCB]

What is the context of the forum insults? Were they referring to HTGTH or something?

No, they're were insulting this forum or its users. There was one post removed that was insulting another forums users but it wasnt htgth

Alfie, a general question, If its 9 or 10 am at your place, tell me what is more ridiculous, if someone asks what you had for breakfast or if you were named after an ABBA song?

Dude, it's really time to let the "breakfast question" go.

Im not complaining about it? I already had a talk with Downzy after that I am not fighting with you or anyone about it. You just did your job as an admin, as a member im just sharing my thoughts?

Or derailing a thread...

Seriously, it's probably best to either let it go or take questions like that to a PM.

What is the context of the forum insults? Were they referring to HTGTH or something?

No, they're were insulting this forum or its users. There was one post removed that was insulting another forums users but it wasnt htgth

What's the context? Why would they just randomly insult the forum? An insult IS subjective, ya know.

Nah, the insults that were removed were obvious and direct. The only question I have is the same you posted; why would someone randomly insult the forum? Not sure why, but it happened. Along with the greater majority of posts that were removed was direct insults of other users for no reason whatsoever also.

edit-

Speaking of which, only 3 of the 25 posts removed over the course of 30 pages were removed for being forum insults.

[downzy]

Wasn't in response to anyone. It has the same tone towards the same person as the other and was due simply to the poll being posted and it's results.

They aren't over the line technically but the guy made it a point to be a wise ass and incite supposed attacks. Like I said. It's passive-aggressive and you guys were being played. Now the guy that responded to those weak jabs was punished for saying something common on this board that no one gives a second thought. The rules were shifted because it was THE Fernando. Simple.

I was talking about posts deleted by mods. If the posts were deleted by the users, then obviously there's not a problem but I doubt they were user deletes since there was a running theme to all of them.(not stupid questions or ass kissing).

But others responded to Fernando's comments without resorting to personal attacks and telling him to fuck off. See the difference? The rules weren't shifted at all. You're starting with an argument and trying to mould the facts to have it hold up. I've reiterated time and again that we do not allow personal attacks on this forum. We do not allow abusive language and telling someone off would fall into that category. What happened to Mags was the enforcement of the rules, not the exception.

Actually, quite a number of posts were deleted by the user themselves. You'd be surprised how many posts get deleted by their own authors.

[Rustycage]

What is the context of the forum insults? Were they referring to HTGTH or something?

No, they're were insulting this forum or its users. There was one post removed that was insulting another forums users but it wasnt htgth

Alfie, a general question, If its 9 or 10 am at your place, tell me what is more ridiculous, if someone asks what you had for breakfast or if you were named after an ABBA song?

Dude, it's really time to let the "breakfast question" go.

Im not complaining about it? I already had a talk with Downzy after that I am not fighting with you or anyone about it. You just did your job as an admin, as a member im just sharing my thoughts?

Or derailing a thread...

Seriously, it's probably best to either let it go or take questions like that to a PM.

What is the context of the forum insults? Were they referring to HTGTH or something?

No, they're were insulting this forum or its users. There was one post removed that was insulting another forums users but it wasnt htgth

What's the context? Why would they just randomly insult the forum? An insult IS subjective, ya know.

Nah, the insults that were removed were obvious and direct. The only question I have is the same you posted; why would someone randomly insult the forum? Not sure why, but it happened. Along with the greater majority of posts that were removed was direct insults of other users for no reason whatsoever also.

What is the context of the forum insults? That could probably shed light on why they would randomly insult the forum.

[RussTCB]

What's the context? Why would they just randomly insult the forum? An insult IS subjective, ya know.

Nah, the insults that were removed were obvious and direct. The only question I have is the same you posted; why would someone randomly insult the forum? Not sure why, but it happened. Along with the greater majority of posts that were removed was direct insults of other users for no reason whatsoever also.

What is the context of the forum insults? That could probably shed light on why they would randomly insult the forum.

Asking the same question again warrants getting the same answer again, so I guess read my original reply.

I also edited my original reply to include this:

"Speaking of which, only 3 of the 25 posts removed over the course of 30 pages were removed for being forum insults."

[Rustycage]

Wasn't in response to anyone. It has the same tone towards the same person as the other and was due simply to the poll being posted and it's results.

They aren't over the line technically but the guy made it a point to be a wise ass and incite supposed attacks. Like I said. It's passive-aggressive and you guys were being played. Now the guy that responded to those weak jabs was punished for saying something common on this board that no one gives a second thought. The rules were shifted because it was THE Fernando. Simple.

I was talking about posts deleted by mods. If the posts were deleted by the users, then obviously there's not a problem but I doubt they were user deletes since there was a running theme to all of them.(not stupid questions or ass kissing).

But others responded to Fernando's comments without resorting to personal attacks and telling him to fuck off. See the difference? The rules weren't shifted at all. You're starting with an argument and trying to mould the facts to have to hold up. I've reiterated time and again that we do not allow personal attacks on this forum. We do not allow abusive language and telling someone off would fall into that category. What happened to Mags was the enforcement of the rules, not the exception.

Actually, quite a number of posts were deleted by the user themselves. You'd be surprised how many posts get deleted by their own authors.

Are you saying that the back and forth between Fernando and magisme over several topics is the same as bystanders trying to be seen?

From the very first appearance of him, his attitude towards certain users(mags included) was so sarcastic, condescending and just begging for a reaction. That is the very definition of trolling.

What's the context? Why would they just randomly insult the forum? An insult IS subjective, ya know.

Nah, the insults that were removed were obvious and direct. The only question I have is the same you posted; why would someone randomly insult the forum? Not sure why, but it happened. Along with the greater majority of posts that were removed was direct insults of other users for no reason whatsoever also.

What is the context of the forum insults? That could probably shed light on why they would randomly insult the forum.

Asking the same question again warrants getting the same answer again, so I guess read my original reply.

I also edited my original reply to include this:

"Speaking of which, only 3 of the 25 posts removed over the course of 30 pages were removed for being forum insults."

So those 3 forum insults had to be for some reason. The reason someone would do that makes one curious.

[RussTCB]

Asking the same question again warrants getting the same answer again, so I guess read my original reply.

I also edited my original reply to include this:

"Speaking of which, only 3 of the 25 posts removed over the course of 30 pages were removed for being forum insults."

So those 3 forum insults had to be for some reason. The reason someone would do that makes one curious.

Agreed. Though I can't understand why users would insult each other for no reason either but it happens.

[downzy]

Wasn't in response to anyone. It has the same tone towards the same person as the other and was due simply to the poll being posted and it's results.

They aren't over the line technically but the guy made it a point to be a wise ass and incite supposed attacks. Like I said. It's passive-aggressive and you guys were being played. Now the guy that responded to those weak jabs was punished for saying something common on this board that no one gives a second thought. The rules were shifted because it was THE Fernando. Simple.

I was talking about posts deleted by mods. If the posts were deleted by the users, then obviously there's not a problem but I doubt they were user deletes since there was a running theme to all of them.(not stupid questions or ass kissing).

But others responded to Fernando's comments without resorting to personal attacks and telling him to fuck off. See the difference? The rules weren't shifted at all. You're starting with an argument and trying to mould the facts to have to hold up. I've reiterated time and again that we do not allow personal attacks on this forum. We do not allow abusive language and telling someone off would fall into that category. What happened to Mags was the enforcement of the rules, not the exception.

Actually, quite a number of posts were deleted by the user themselves. You'd be surprised how many posts get deleted by their own authors.

Are you saying that the back and forth between Fernando and magisme over several topics is the same as bystanders trying to be seen?

From the very first appearance of him, his attitude towards certain users(mags included) was so sarcastic, condescending and just begging for a reaction. That is the very definition of trolling.

I guess you missed Mags opening post. The entire thread was meant to be sarcastic in tone and informal in nature. Fernando was operating under that pretence. Again, if you feel if someone is being condescending or sarcastic, feel free to respond in kind (which is how most, include Mags, did up until a point). What not to do is to tell 'em off and then call them a name.

Look, I really don't want to continue belabouring the same point. I get it, you don't agree with how we operated. Fine. We're not going to please everyone. These things are judgement calls and as such are open to interpretation and disagreement.

But let me make this perfectly clear: you're never going to convince me or anyone else on the staff that how we moderated and handled the conversation between members and Fernando was ineffectual or inconsistent. Just not going to happen. So we can agree to disagree or you can keep repeating yourself for reasons that are only apparent to you.

[Rustycage]

That's fine. I'm sure it will happen again.