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Terrorist attack thread


alfierose

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On 3/24/2016 at 3:14 PM, shades said:

If there is anything the US can do to help, logistics, additional security, share intelligence info, please let us know, we're not busy right now

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/obama-dancing-tango-argentina/index.html

Actually John Kerry arrived in Belgium today and gave a press conference together with our Prime Minister, offering any assistance Belgium needed from the US... 

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50 minutes ago, classicrawker said:

U.S. Teen survived the Boston Marathon blast, He was at the finish line, and the Belgium Airport blast he was injured but will recover........And was in France, 2 hours away, during the Paris terrorist attack.............

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mormon-teen-survived-terror-attacks-speaks-article-1.2577503

 
 

What the same lad?  Sure it aint him doing it? :lol:

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8 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

So we live in a relativelly peaceful time here in Europe. To further put things in perspective, here are stats for the rest of the world for 2001-2014:

o-TERRORISM-570.jpg?6

Not wanting to minimize the horror of what happened in Belgium, or argue that we shouldn't be worried, just trying to look at the grander picture and refuting those that claim things are worsening.

Fucking hell man, that's only darkies though. Who gives a fuck about towelheads? Not like they're real people or anything. Goddamn coons! Over there! Attempting to take the white man's righteous indignation at being targeted by religious fundamentalism! Makes me sick it does!!!!

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2 hours ago, PappyTron said:

So, you wish to show that Europe isn't as bad as third world shit holes such as Somalia, the Sudan, Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq? What amazing times we live in!

Here's a thought; why don't you show us all of the crime rates in general, such as murders, robberies, and rapes for these countries and for those of say, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Norway etc, and then we can maybe discuss why people, such as those in this thread, may not feel that great about accepting millions of people from these places into their neighbourhoods.

He can't, they don't send the census bureau down there, they might get bummed :lol:

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2 hours ago, PappyTron said:

So, you wish to show that Europe isn't as bad as third world shit holes such as Somalia, the Sudan, Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq? What amazing times we live in!

Here's a thought; why don't you show us all of the crime rates in general, such as murders, robberies, and rapes for these countries and for those of say, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Norway etc, and then we can maybe discuss why people, such as those in this thread, may not feel that great about accepting millions of people from these places into their neighbourhoods.

And you've found the key to it. These European countries are basically importing poverty and crime. But according to modern PC culture, everybody is a blank slate and all these people are going to magically become European in all sense but physical appearance in a generation or two. I'll bet the farm against that one.

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I really don't understand why you posted that stat Soulmonster and what you are trying to prove here and really don't understand your reaction Dazey. You think nobody here cares about that? Ofcourse we all do. But obviously now it's at our doorstep, we are threatened as well and it's something we don't understand and hardly had to deal with. Ofcourse we are upset, you can take the metro tomorrow to work and get blown up in a country were you believe to live in peace. Duh, ofcourse we are upset about that.

There are people who say: there was an attack in yemen and we hardly hear about it, why didn't that made headlines? And why didn't the western press make a big deal about that? Well, you know it was all over the news in the middle east, there it was a big deal. It was in the news here, only not as much as Belgium. Same story for attacks in Nigeria, it made headlines in Africa. Since Belgium (Flanders) and my country are strongly connected, pretty sure it's also more news here, then in most other countries in Europe.

Stupid stuff, like it is a competition which bombing is worse and deserves the most news. It's all horrible, but when I get attacked myself, well my neighbour country, obviously I get more involved and more interested. That's only human and we don't have to be made feel guilty about that feeling by people who feel, I should be just as upset about bombings in other countries in the world. Ridicullous

Edited by MB.
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29 minutes ago, MB. said:

I really don't understand why you posted that stat Soulmonster and what you are trying to prove here and really don't understand your reaction Dazey. You think nobody here cares about that? Ofcourse we all do. But obviously now it's at our doorstep, we are threatened as well and it's something we don't understand and hardly had to deal with. Ofcourse we are upset, you can take the metro tomorrow to work and get blown up in a country were you believe to live in peace. Duh, ofcourse we are upset about that.

There are people who say: there was an attack in yemen and we hardly hear about it, why didn't that made headlines? And why didn't the western press make a big deal about that? Well, you know it was all over the news in the middle east, there it was a big deal. It was in the news here, only not as much as Belgium. Same story for attacks in Nigeria, it made headlines in Africa. Since Belgium (Flanders) and my country are strongly connected, pretty sure it's also more news here, then in most other countries in Europe.

Stupid stuff, like it is a competition which bombing is worse and deserves the most news. It's all horrible, but when I get attacked myself, well my neighbour country, obviously I get more involved and more interested. That's only human and we don't have to be made feel guilty about that feeling by people who feel, I should be just as upset about bombings in other countries in the world. Ridicullous

It's run a bit deeper than that though doesn't it?  There is often a palpable sentiment of 'as long as it's happening over there and not here i don't care'.  In fact I've seen as much said.  And things of a similar moral imbalance.  Like 'i dont care if they torture terrorism suspects for information if it means my safety', more than that I've even heard it said that the media shouldn't report about such things because it makes their countries security forces job all that much harder.

Sometimes things are just point out with a view to presenting a broader perspective, i don't think the intention is to make you feel bad or something.  

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I think, there are only a few people thinking what you said and most people feel bad for other countries and the people living there and do care. Actually I think when people say, what you are saying, I get very annoyed, cause I don't think it's the truth for most people. I believe most think otherwise, press or no press. Well at least in my surrounding. Actually we have a refugee centre close by and the whole neighberhood was busy giving the people furniture, clothes, toys and such, tried to make them feel welcome. We have also worked hard for an organisation who brought stuff to refugee camps in Syria and Iraq. Most people are not as disconnected with other parts of the world as you make it seem or as you might believe.

In my country most of the attacks in the world are in the news, only obviously Belgium is more in the news and we obviously feel more threatened about that and more involved. I don't feel bad of what anybody says, I just think it's stupid when people say stuff like Dazey did. I just disagree, cause my experience is totally diffferent.

Edited by MB.
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I think, there are only a few people thinking what you said and most people feel bad for other countries and the people living there and do care. Actually I think when people say, what you are saying, I get very annoyed, cause I don't think it's the truth for most people. I believe most think otherwise, press or no press. Well at least in my surrounding

 

I don't think I'd like to say one way or the other without knowing for certain, perhaps you have a point, perhaps media reporting is not necessarily a gauge of public sentiment, I'd certainly like that to be the case.  But I'm a very cynical fella and honestly, i do think that we dont care.  To a point we don't, we're very much led by self interest.  And there's nothing wrong with that in a sense, we all protect ourselves first and foremost, it's instinct but at the same time we don't really care about poor people.  Or other parts of the world, it's just natural.  I mean i find myself doing it.  It's easy to rant on mygnr as i do and come off like mr bleeding heart humanitarian but the truth is if i get my beer and fags and a gutful of food do i really care?  I mean you talk later in your post about people that help out refugee centres etc and i applaud those people, i really do, cuz they're far better than a thousand me's who talk a good game but in truth don't like getting off their arses.  Perhaps thats it in fact, perhaps thats the reason, I don't care myself deep down and so, y'know, evil be who evil thinks as the saying goes, to the evil all things are evil.  I mean reading earlier posts of mine i think i said something like 'to a point i feel guilty about muslims doing bad things so i try my best to not embody a negative stereotype' but if you really think about it thats self interest isn't it?  Show that I'm not all bad, saving myself as it were.  

Whatever the degrees are though, without being able to nail something down here, it's at least an indictment of our media, people dying in the middle east or...y'know, foreign lands simply does not move us all as much.  And your point is absolutely accurate, of course it's scarier when it's closer to us and of course our media will report things that happen to us more acutely than that which occurs in foreign lands but at the same time, thats the point, isn't that kind of contrary to the idea, the notion of humanity or to be humane rather?  I mean it's in the word, humane, human, it relates to the human race, your best friend in Holland is the same as my best friend in London who is the same as Carlos best friend in Paraguay is the same as Tehotus best friend in Tahiti is the same as Rajeevs best friend in India, they're all human beings, the nature of our indignation refers generally to a pure concept, the loss of HUMAN life, how can these people be so evil, to take life, to kill, to do this evil act...surely in that equation nationality and such things fade into insignificance?  I'm not so ignorant as to be unaware of the realities of human nature and the idea of how things that happen close to home hit harder but, again, perhaps it's my own cynicism but it's difficult to ignore the idea that self interest and fear for oneself plays a HUGE part in that.

Honestly, i really don't think people care so much.  This is gonna sound SO harsh but...we have these little compartments, these little boxes to tick, 5 pounds to cancer research a month, giving your old shoes to Aid for Bangladesh, these platitudes that make us feel better about ourselves but quite frankly the only reasonable reaction to some of the atrocities that go on on our watch under the auspices of governments that we vote in would be to beat the doors of Downing Street (or wherever your Prime Minister lives) with our fists till we push it down, they are nothing less than humanitarian tragedies.  What happened in Afghanistan and Iraq, on OUR watch, was a monstrous and on a par with anything (and worse than a lot of things) that terrorists have done in our times.  I mean 'bunker busting bombs', really?!?  Carpet-bombing?  And I'll go to sleep tonight and so will you, relatively safe as houses, i give money, sure, like a good little boy to Children in Need, or Cancer Research or whatever, doing my little bit to make myself feel like a human being but...i dunno, look, what I'm saying sounds awful and is terribly devaluing of the good work people do for charity and it's probably a reflection more of me than anything but...do we care, do we REALLY care?  

Quote

In my country most of the attacks in the world are in the news, only obviously Belgium is more in the news and we obviously feel more threatened about that and more involved. I don't feel bad of what anybody says, I just think it's stupid when people say stuff like Dazey did. I just disagree, cause my experience is totally diffferent.

If you knew where Dazey came from and the prevailing mentalities of that area whilst he was growing up you'd be standing up and pounding your palms in applause that he was even capable of making such a statement :lol: (thats deliberately designed to patronise him by the way!)

Edited by Len B'stard
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11 hours ago, PappyTron said:

So, you wish to show that Europe isn't as bad as third world shit holes such as Somalia, the Sudan, Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq? What amazing times we live in!

Here's a thought; why don't you show us all of the crime rates in general, such as murders, robberies, and rapes for these countries and for those of say, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Norway etc, and then we can maybe discuss why people, such as those in this thread, may not feel that great about accepting millions of people from these places into their neighbourhoods.

No, I think we all knew before that Europe is better off in terms of terrorism than most other parts of the world. I wanted to show how much better off we are.

Here's another thought: why don't you do that? I mean, I showed what I wanted to show. Why don't you do the same?

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9 hours ago, Axl owns dexter said:

And you've found the key to it. These European countries are basically importing poverty and crime. But according to modern PC culture, everybody is a blank slate and all these people are going to magically become European in all sense but physical appearance in a generation or two. I'll bet the farm against that one.

Why argue against this "modern PC culture" when no one here seems to be an exponent of it? No one here is arguing that immigrants won't stick to their culture for many cultures, or that we risk more crime, so this is straw man argumentation. We accept these things. Yet some of us still thinks that some immigration is right, especially when we provide refuge to those that flee from war and terror.

We can learn a lot about immigration from looking at USA, and see many parallels to what is happening now in Europe. Immigrants came from all kinds of countries and cultures and back in the 1920s Italians were a particular pariah caste. They were considered untrustworthy, lazy, unfit for many jobs, bad at integrating, wouldn't learn the language, and, perhaps most importantly, a threat to society (because of their anarchistic/fascistic connections -- back in the 1920s anarchists performed many terrorist attacks). Quite similar to how some people now view Muslims. Anyway, I guess we can agree that Italians are pretty well integrated in USA today, although still retaining aspects of their culture and a pride of their heritage.

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9 hours ago, MB. said:

I really don't understand why you posted that stat Soulmonster and what you are trying to prove here

I believe I explained why I posted those stats, and it goes back to a continuing point I have been making for quite some pages now: That things aren't worsening in Europe as a couple of posters here claimed. Then I posted the global stats to provide the bigger picture which I find interesting, and I am sure others do, too. 

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3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Why argue against this "modern PC culture" when no one here seems to be an exponent of it? No one here is arguing that immigrants won't stick to their culture for many cultures, or that we risk more crime, so this is straw man argumentation. We accept these things. Yet some of us still thinks that some immigration is right, especially when we provide refuge to those that flee from war and terror.

We can learn a lot about immigration from looking at USA, and see many parallels to what is happening now in Europe. Immigrants came from all kinds of countries and cultures and back in the 1920s Italians were a particular pariah caste. They were considered untrustworthy, lazy, unfit for many jobs, bad at integrating, wouldn't learn the language, and, perhaps most importantly, a threat to society (because of their anarchistic/fascistic connections -- back in the 1920s anarchists performed many terrorist attacks). Quite similar to how some people now view Muslims. Anyway, I guess we can agree that Italians are pretty well integrated in USA today, although still retaining aspects of their culture and a pride of their heritage.

Is that the same 1920s Italian immigrants that brought the Mafia with them? Those Italian immigrants? You know, the ones that formed the largest criminal organisation in the history of the world?

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Just now, PappyTron said:

Is that the same 1920s Italian immigrants that brought the Mafia with them? Those Italian immigrants? You know, the ones that formed the largest criminal organisation in the history of the world?

Yep :) Just like we in Europe have imported other crime organizations from foreign countries through immigration. No point on harping on the fact that immigration may result in more crime, especially when followed by bad integration. It is a trivial point.

But there is also a distinction to be made. USA back then was extremely open to immigration, much more than European countries are. USA was almost completely open. We cannot compare that and the effects of such a policy to what we have in Europe. These open borders, combined with zero attempts at integration, created a stratification of society with large subpopulations living in isolation retaining their culture and language as much as possible, as large enclaves within USA. You had large sections of NYC completely run be specific nationalities. This created vast opportunities for maintaining specific social structures, including imported crime organizations like the mafia, and, in contact with other aspects of USA culture this caused various conflicts to a much larger degree than what we see in Europe. This also highlights some of the problems with immigration in France amd Belgium (and Malmø) where, similarly, immigration has resulted in largely "foreign" regions where immigrants predominate and where it is too easy to not integrate.

So yes, I think we can learn a lot from history, including USA, on what to not do and what to expect.

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6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yep :) Just like we in Europe have imported other crime organizations from foreign countries through immigration. No point on harping on the fact that immigration may result in more crime, especially when followed by bad integration. It is a trivial point.

But there is also a distinction to be made. USA back then was extremely open to immigration, much more than European countries are. USA was almost completely open. We cannot compare that and the effects of such a policy to what we have in Europe. These open borders, combined with zero attempts at integration, created a stratification of society with large subpopulations living in isolation retaining their culture and language as much as possible, as large enclaves within USA. You had large sections of NYC completely run be specific nationalities. This created vast opportunities for maintaining specific social structures, including imported crime organizations like the mafia, and, in contact with other aspects of USA culture this caused various conflicts to a much larger degree than what we see in Europe. This also highlights some of the problems with immigration in France amd Belgium (and Malmø) where, similarly, immigration has resulted in largely "foreign" regions where immigrants predominate and where it is too easy to not integrate.

So yes, I think we can learn a lot from history, including USA, on what to not do and what to expect.

We have open borders today; you can walk across half of Europe with zero checks. People go through Calais, by the thousand, weekly to get to England in the backs of trucks. One in six people in Sweden is an immigrant. In 15 years time Swedes are estimated to be the minority in their own country. That's not immigration, it's invasion. Oh, and Sweden now has the second highest number of reported rapes in the world. That's just "trivial" though, right?

No point on harping on the fact that immigration may result in more crime

No point in harping on? Fucking hell.

It is a trivial point

Oh, it really is anything but trivial.

Quote from David Wilson, a professor of criminology, on crime and immigration in the UK - "The pattern of immigration is part of a cocktail of factors that has led to the increase in the murder figures". These things are all "trivial" though, right?

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42 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

We have open borders today; you can walk across half of Europe with zero checks. People go through Calais, by the thousand, weekly to get to England in the backs of trucks. One in six people in Sweden is an immigrant. In 15 years time Swedes are estimated to be the minority in their own country. That's not immigration, it's invasion. Oh, and Sweden now has the second highest number of reported rapes in the world. That's just "trivial" though, right?

No point in harping on? Fucking hell.

Oh, it really is anything but trivial.

Quote from David Wilson, a professor of criminology, on crime and immigration in the UK - "The pattern of immigration is part of a cocktail of factors that has led to the increase in the murder figures". These things are all "trivial" though, right?

All European countries today have quotas on how many immigrants they will accept. Very unlike how it was in USA pre-1920s.

We know immigration may result in higher crime. We accept the risk.

It is a trivial point because we all agree on it. It is uncontested.

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5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

All European countries today have quotas on how many immigrants they will accept. Very unlike how it was in USA pre-1920s.

We know immigration may result in higher crime. We accept the risk.

It is a trivial point because we all agree on it. It is uncontested.

Quotas that are forced upon them, in violation of the sovereignty, you mean. Moreover, quotas do nothing to curb illegal immigration, which is rampant, thanks to people of your ilk.

Immigration from these countries does not "maybe" increase crime rates; it DOES increase crime rates, but you simply choose to try and liberalise the facts.

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3 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

Quotas that are forced upon them, in violation of the sovereignty, you mean. Moreover, quotas do nothing to curb illegal immigration, which is rampant, thanks to people of your ilk.

Immigration from these countries does not "maybe" increase crime rates; it DOES increase crime rates, but you simply choose to try and liberalise the facts.

Speaking as a Norwegian, I don't think any quotas are enforced upon my country. We have been (largely?) free to adjust this ourselves and lately we have reduced these quotas because we felt we got too many immigrants. Similarly, the different immigration policies in European countries suggests each country to, at least, some extent decides this to themselves. This is why Sweden and Germany has accepted so many immigrants in reent years whereas Portugal significantly less. Nevertheless, this doesn't affect my original point which was that we HAVE rather limited quotas in Europe which is in contrast to USA pre-1920s. They accepted much larger immigration, and eperienced some of the problems we are seeing today, including increased crime and group discrimination and racism.

Illegal immigration is rampant due to people of my ilk? :D

I wasn't talking about immigration from "these countries", I was talking about immigration. Period. As for immigration from "these countries" (I presume you mean Syria and Iraq?), yes, we can be pretty certain it will lead to more crime.

Basically, I don't think we disagree much. We both acknowledge the inherent risks of immigration. I accept them, you don't. Fair enough.

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You know, reading back through the last few posts I've focused upon the following exchange which, I believe, sums up the lunacy of liberal-minded people such as SoulMonster who seem to be happy to throw nations to the dogs so long as they feel that their conscious is being well fed.

I said:

Sweden now has the second highest number of reported rapes in the entire world

SoulMonster's reply, with no hint of irony:

We know immigration may result in higher crime. We accept the risk

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Illegal immigration is rampant due to people of my ilk?

Absolutely, especially when you spout such nonsense as "We know immigration may result in higher crime. We accept the risk". It's leftist-leaning people such as yourself who are happy to drag countries down to Hades as long as you can go to bed at night with what you feel is a clear conscious. I mean, according to the Federal Police database of Germany, in 2014 immigrants were responsible for 54,000+ crimes (who knows how many unreported on top). So, that's 54,000+ crimes that were committed on the people of Germany that wouldn't have been otherwise and your reaction to it is a shrug and the reply "we know the risks and we accept them. It's our duty to help everyone".

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32 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

You know, reading back through the last few posts I've focused upon the following exchange which, I believe, sums up the lunacy of liberal-minded people such as SoulMonster who seem to be happy to throw nations to the dogs so long as they feel that their conscious is being well fed.

You think I am crazy because I accept modest immigration even if I know this will probably result in more crime? Okay then. I think of it as our duty to help those that flee war and terror, just like Norwegians were helped during WWII when fleeing Nazi held Norway, and just like when Norwegians immigrated to America to escape poverty and religious intolerance back in the 19th century. I acknowledge and accept this might cause more crime in my country, but I believe it will be modest and temporary, especially considering the quotas we have and our ability to adjust them as we go along, and I base this on historical examples and a belief that we can do better. I also accept and acknowledge immigration will be a strain on our welfare system and that it will affect my life negativelly, to some extent (e.g. through higher taxes). Again, I am still in favour of modest immigration despite this. At its core is the golden rule.

I don't consider the chance of Norway ending up as Belgium to be probable or even possible. Neither do I fear what has happened in Sweden, simply for the fact that we don't have as many immigrants to Norway as Belgium and Sweden have had, especially not from those countries, and on top of that failed to such an extent in integration. So trying to scare me with these examples won't work - I have never argued for immigration quotas similar to Belgium and Sweden so those outcomes are simply not conceiveable.

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40 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

Absolutely, especially when you spout such nonsense as "We know immigration may result in higher crime. We accept the risk". It's leftist-leaning people such as yourself who are happy to drag countries down to Hades as long as you can go to bed at night with what you feel is a clear conscious. I mean, according to the Federal Police database of Germany, in 2014 immigrants were responsible for 54,000+ crimes (who knows how many unreported on top). So, that's 54,000+ crimes that were committed on the people of Germany that wouldn't have been otherwise and your reaction to it is a shrug and the reply "we know the risks and we accept them. It's our duty to help everyone".

I must be dumb because I don't see how accepting some immigration means I am responsible for illegal immigration. :D 

I am not "happy to drag any countries down to Hades". We have had modest immigration in Norway for decades and we certainly haven't been dragged down to Hades. And if I felt we were I would be opposed to further immigration. We live in a democracy and adjust this as we go along, just like we have very recently reduced the quotas because we felt too many immigrants entered our country. WELL before we were dragged to Hades. You are being ridiculous.

I have never claimed we should help EVERYONE. I have been in favour of modest immigration, and have been rather explicit about this throughout this thread. I have simply never argued for open borders alike to USA pre-1920s and not even the type of immigration performed in some other European countries like Sweden. So you are misrepresenting my position.

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Sorry Soulmonster, but you live in Norway. It's probably the best country of Europe. You guys don't have to worry that much, except maybe some nutcases of your own. Most immigrants you have, are people from other western European countries. And when you do get ' too much refugees',, you send them back to the main land. Your country isn't floaded like Sweden, Germany and England. It's hard to get into Norway, so people chose other countries. It's easy for you to talk. Those countries have no problem with 'modest' immigration, but that is not what's going on the moment. I would suggest countries like Norway and Denmark to open their boarders more, but pretty sure that's not going to happen. Norway always pretends to be so 'left and socialistic', but it's not. Well, not when it comes to immigration of people from other countries, then western europe. So Norway adjusted their quotas and send the refugees back to the main land, thanks so much! While you are the basicly the richest country in Europe and have most space. Lol. Easy for you guys to stay all 'liberal' about this issue.

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5 minutes ago, MB. said:

Sorry Soulmonster, but you live in Norway. It's probably the best country of Europe. 

Nah, it's just that terrorists think it's just too fucking cold and don't want to pay £10 a pint. 

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