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Did Axl even try to make Chinese Democracy sound like a GNR record?


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Some interesting bits, particularly in the early years. But overall the filmmakers didn't seem to understand what the band was, as exampled in the Alice bits, so it didn't really conclude anything. The reunion talk at the end although pertinent glossed over the real issues. The 10 things Slash hates about Axl and vice versa would have been an interstitial study in itself.

The fact is, we'll never get the full story of the post 1991 period until Axl gives his side. Which is unlikely to ever happen.

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On 2/5/2016 at 4:54 PM, Babooshka said:

He wanted to be Trent. That My World nonsense was his first try. By the time UYI was over he put his plan into motion, got hold of the name, full creative control and also wanted to produce. Just like Trent. He even managed to nab Finck. All that crap about wanting to do a blues/AfD album was a flat out lie said after his desire to switch to electronic/nuMetal had gone public.

I agree he should have gone solo. I think that's the greatest issue in all of this. GNR and its reputation would've remained intact, plus CD would've been better. Personally I like OMG and think the songs on CD should've been more in that vein, much bolder. CD is more of a pop album imo. Nothing wrong with that, but I don't think it's the progressive or interesting album he wanted to create.

  

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12 hours ago, maxpax said:

Rock wasnt as good AS in the 90s but foo fighters and tenacious d were definately better than nugnr. CD is just too overproduced...

Each track isn't really over produced but there's tracks like Scraped and Sorry that seem like from another record. As in there's maybe too many productions. But that's CD. 

I don't listen to the Foo fighters so don't know. Manics are one of my favorite bands and I'd probably only pick one or two tracks to replace a CD track. 

Rock n Roll Train and All Nightmare Long are great tracks. I like a lot of different music but new Guns as a band put more I liked than any one band. But that's just me. 

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23 hours ago, maxpax said:

Rock wasnt as good AS in the 90s but foo fighters and tenacious d were definately better than nugnr. CD is just too overproduced...

That's risible.

 

People saying CD is overproduced doesn't know much about production. You're probably saying that because there are a lot of instrumentation, and can be sometimes a super dense, multi layered mishmash. Then you're probably thinking like Tommy Stinson. That's why a lot prefer the Antiquiet version (less guitars, no Bumblefoot...).

But Axl wanted a wall of guitars on Chinese, and it this case it makes sense. Maybe you don't like much digital augmentations and synths or you are more about analogue production, that's fine. A lot are in your case. CD has one of the best production I've heard in a long time. And that's because of dynamics. Dynamics in my opinion are the best way to get the best sound possible. And Chinese has a lot of dynamics throughout the album. Axl and Caram wanted the production with less compression possible, in this way you can hear details over your phone or radio or shitty hifi, it actually punches your speakers louder. Everyone want heavily compressed recordings now. When I hear the drums, I think of Andy Wallace, I think he's the best drums producer. Even Matt Sorum said he loved how the drums was produced. When you hear Bucket solos on Chinese or Prostitute it's awesome, that's because of dynamics. The Robin Finck's solo on This I Love is so great because of that, notes are screaming.

Appetite is a great example of analogue production just as Chinese is a great example of digital production. And Axl is now a computer scientist...

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On February 6, 2016 at 10:43 AM, shjtjustgotreal said:

no it is not my dear sir

i was only talking about moving on from the afd sound thats all

What you say makes a lot of sense. So maybe people are just describing what they think is wrong with the album incorrectly. 

Quite a lot of people prefer the leaked versions over the versions that ended up on the album. 

The leaked versions seemed much more raw and full of energy. They sounded liked kick ass rock and roll songs. The album versions lost that rawness. Because Axl added layer after layer of guitars and other musical parts and really changed the entire vibe of the album. 

The final version of CD sounds like an album that a singer worked on with his computer for 15 years and spent 14 million dollars to make. The original leaks sound like an album that a band got together in a studio and spent a couple months writing and recording. 

I love most of CD. But I would much rather CD2 be an album that Axl and his band wrote and created in a year rather than seeing what Axl could write, record and then spend a decade fine tuning and adding layers of "sound" the songs. 

I truly believe CD could have been a rock classic if he hadn't tinkered with it to death. 

Adam Carollo has a funny bit where he complains that he can't get a simple glass of ice tea at restaurants in California anymore. You can get ice tea ....with pure cane sugar from Egypt, with lemon drop oil from Spain and pomegranate and strawberry flavor with a dash of oregano. Appetite didn't need walls of guitars and sounds. Another guitar player, ten more years of production, ten million more dollars wouldn't have made appetite a better album.

let the songs speak for themselves. Sometimes a simple glass of ice tea is better than an $8 glass of gourmet tea. 

I suppose a lot of people just feel like all of Axl's tinkering sucked the rawness and soul out of CD. 

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55 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

That's risible.

 

People saying CD is overproduced doesn't know much about production. You're probably saying that because there are a lot of instrumentation, and can be sometimes a super dense, multi layered mishmash. Then you're probably thinking like Tommy Stinson. That's why a lot prefer the Antiquiet version (less guitars, no Bumblefoot...).

But Axl wanted a wall of guitars on Chinese, and it this case it makes sense. Maybe you don't like much digital augmentations and synths or you are more about analogue production, that's fine. A lot are in your case. CD has one of the best production I've heard in a long time. And that's because of dynamics. Dynamics in my opinion are the best way to get the best sound possible. And Chinese has a lot of dynamics throughout the album. Axl and Caram wanted the production with less compression possible, in this way you can hear details over your phone or radio or shitty hifi, it actually punches your speakers louder. Everyone want heavily compressed recordings now. When I hear the drums, I think of Andy Wallace, I think he's the best drums producer. Even Matt Sorum said he loved how the drums was produced. When you hear Bucket solos on Chinese or Prostitute it's awesome, that's because of dynamics. The Robin Finck's solo on This I Love is so great because of that, notes are screaming.

Appetite is a great example of analogue production just as Chinese is a great example of digital production. And Axl is now a computer scientist...

UYI 1+2 is overproduced AS well, but it sounds perfect. Thats why i think that oldgnr is one of the best bands ever. Axl and gnr were very often on the thin line of perfect and overproduced. They crossed the line with sympathy for the devil. And CD is even more over that line of too much. CD has a lot of interesting ideas, but it doesnt sound round, smooth, right. Nugnr is like the wcw, while oldgnr were like WWF. Axl went from hero  to heel. And i didn't like that change. 

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1 hour ago, maxpax said:

UYI 1+2 is overproduced AS well, but it sounds perfect. Thats why i think that oldgnr is one of the best bands ever. Axl and gnr were very often on the thin line of perfect and overproduced. They crossed the line with sympathy for the devil. And CD is even more over that line of too much. CD has a lot of interesting ideas, but it doesnt sound round, smooth, right. Nugnr is like the wcw, while oldgnr were like WWF. Axl went from hero  to heel. And i didn't like that change. 

It's just that any GN'R song have that pretentious overblown feel. So I understand you're feeling on CD, this album is definitely not for everybody. I think it worked very well.

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On 5.2.2016 at 7:40 PM, Sprite said:

I thought a lot of Chinese sounded like a continuation of the Illusions style.

Yeah, same here. I think Axl thinks CD sounds like GN'R was supposed to sound in 2008...ish. I don't think he wanted it to sound like AFD. which was how GN'R was supposed to sound in 1987, or UYIs, which was how it was to be in 1991. He has always been evolving and you can hear from inyerviews pre-AFD how he already back then had a plans on how the band was to evolve away from what they were doing then.

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No. 

What made the GnR sound we are familiar with was the input of all original members. That combination of Axl's vocal delivery & songwriting, Duffs punk attitude, Slash's blues-based guitar leads & riffs, Izzy's great songwriting and rhythm guitar parts that totally complemented Slash, Steven Adler's organic & loose playing style on Appetite etc etc. 

On CD you have Axl circa late 90s/early 2000s with a revolving door of hired (but talented) hands fulfilling his vision. So it's an Axl solo record in all but name. Nothing wrong with that, except perhaps him releasing it under the GnR name. 

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2 hours ago, Apollo said:

What you say makes a lot of sense. So maybe people are just describing what they think is wrong with the album incorrectly. 

Quite a lot of people prefer the leaked versions over the versions that ended up on the album. 

The leaked versions seemed much more raw and full of energy. They sounded liked kick ass rock and roll songs. The album versions lost that rawness. Because Axl added layer after layer of guitars and other musical parts and really changed the entire vibe of the album. 

The final version of CD sounds like an album that a singer worked on with his computer for 15 years and spent 14 million dollars to make. The original leaks sound like an album that a band got together in a studio and spent a couple months writing and recording. 

I love most of CD. But I would much rather CD2 be an album that Axl and his band wrote and created in a year rather than seeing what Axl could write, record and then spend a decade fine tuning and adding layers of "sound" the songs. 

I truly believe CD could have been a rock classic if he hadn't tinkered with it to death. 

Adam Carollo has a funny bit where he complains that he can't get a simple glass of ice tea at restaurants in California anymore. You can get ice tea ....with pure cane sugar from Egypt, with lemon drop oil from Spain and pomegranate and strawberry flavor with a dash of oregano. Appetite didn't need walls of guitars and sounds. Another guitar player, ten more years of production, ten million more dollars wouldn't have made appetite a better album.

let the songs speak for themselves. Sometimes a simple glass of ice tea is better than an $8 glass of gourmet tea. 

I suppose a lot of people just feel like all of Axl's tinkering sucked the rawness and soul out of CD. 

hmm I never got a chance to check out the leaks, any idea where i might find those..?

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On February 6, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Rovim said:

It's a good question. It's fun, so why not?  Axl said that with Chinese, he attempted to create a "true Guns record". But the people with the ability to make an all around sounding Guns album were gone. Some of their influences were also absent from Chinese, while other were more understated compared to the classic Guns albums. Not only that, but Axl's influences have taken more control and he incorporated new elements that were never heard of in a Guns context.

But I think another important factor is that Axl probably knows what a Gn'R album is "supposed" to sound like. I think he wanted to realize his personal musical vision, but still retain everything he loved about Guns

Spot on. 

The gnr sound was a melting pot of five guys. 

CD was one guy from that group's vision - mixed in with numerous new guy's input.

Its a GnR album by name alone.

I love most of it. But it is one guy's vision. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Apollo said:

Spot on. 

The gnr sound was a melting pot of five guys. 

CD was one guy from that group's vision - mixed in with numerous new guy's input.

Its a GnR album by name alone.

I love most of it. But it is one guy's vision. 

 

Maybe Axl will Add input from Slash, Duff, and Izzy and incorporate them into CD ll. What will you call it then, if the quality matches the 1 album we got? it will be kinda weird if Slash plays a solo on a song Paul brought in.

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1 hour ago, Rovim said:

Maybe Axl will Add input from Slash, Duff, and Izzy and incorporate them into CD ll. What will you call it then, if the quality matches the 1 album we got? it will be kinda weird if Slash plays a solo on a song Paul brought in.

Honestly I hope that everybody sets their egos aside and remembers these are just rock songs. If they are great unreleased songs, then who cares who wrote them. Hopeful Slash and Duff will add their flair to The General and Soulmonster.  

I think CD2 with the the 8-9 best remaining CD songs and 4-5 songs written by Axl/Slash/Duff/Izzy for an album THIS summer would be perfect. 

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1 hour ago, Apollo said:

Honestly I hope that everybody sets their egos aside and remembers these are just rock songs. If they are great unreleased songs, then who cares who wrote them. Hopeful Slash and Duff will add their flair to The General and Soulmonster.  

I think CD2 with the the 8-9 best remaining CD songs and 4-5 songs written by Axl/Slash/Duff/Izzy for an album THIS summer would be perfect. 

Hopefully it won't be the summer of 2069. I think that except Axl, they do know these are just rock songs, but no one told Axl. This is the man who perfected and fine tuned Scraped for 12 years. This is the guy that was hoarding This I Love, by far the gayest song in the Gn'R catalog, for nearly 20 years until Robin convinced him to just go with the flow. Duff and Slash might get Axl to release something, which is encouraging kinda.

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Chinese Democracy sounds like what Axl wanted Guns N' Roses to sound like at that time. It's been said in interviews/etc. that one of the stresses after UYI was that Slash and Axl had different ideas on the band's musical direction and Axl wanted to try more industrial/alt -type stuff. That's evident with CD. There are a couple songs there that do sound to me like natural progressions from UYI, though, like "Chinese Democracy" and "Scraped."

 

Lots of bands experiment with straying from their signature style, and as they grow as musicians they do change. Sometimes it works and they evolve gracefully; sometimes it's a dismal failure. They're not just judged on the intrinsic quality of the music; they're judged on the expectations their fans have about how they're supposed to sound.

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On 05/02/2016 at 7:12 PM, maynard said:

CD has absolutely NOTHING to do with the UYI albums. Everything is completely different. It's not a natural sequel to UYI and it'is not an evlolution of the GNR sound.

It's Axl's solo attempt. It's not a GNR (the band) album. It's a GNR (Axl's NIN) album. That's pretty obvious to me.

And I think that's exactly what Axl was attempting to do. A solo record with the most talented musicians his money could hire. He sings and plays piano like he did during his time in GNR, that's the only similar part IMO. Robin can play some bluesy stuff and yet his style is completely different from Slash's, I hear very few similarities. Cool basslines which were part of GNR's sound don't exist on CD because a) Tommy is mediocre and b) It's not a GNR album, Axl wasn't trying to replicate what Duff did. Production-wise, Axl kept the trend he started on UYI to make the songs bloated and self-indulgent, difference is on UYI there was a band to decide the final versions of the songs and put a leash on Axl, on CD Axl was calling ALL THE SHOTS, because it's a SOLO RECORD.

Kudos to Axl for trying something different. I do like early versions of Better and think Madagascar at Rio 3 is a brilliant song with an amazing solo by BH. But he's an 80s hard rock singer, not Trent Reznor, not Bowie, not a leader, not a genius, not a guy able to come up with epic songs on his own. He needs Slash.

Total bull. The Idea that he's supposed to be pigeonholed into one style. Every release from guns has had some evolution. 

Robin can play bluesy, but he doesn't sound like Slash - that's a good thing. Worst thing that could have happened would have been for Axl to get in some guy who plays identical to Slash. Would have been ripped to shreds. There's only one Slash, same goes for Izzy, Duff etc. Trying to emulate them would have just been a watered down tribute version of a dead band. 

By evolving he definitely bewildered some people but he also remained somewhat creative and relevant? 

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2 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Total bull. The Idea that he's supposed to be pigeonholed into one style. Every release from guns has had some evolution. 

Robin can play bluesy, but he doesn't sound like Slash - that's a good thing. Worst thing that could have happened would have been for Axl to get in some guy who plays identical to Slash. Would have been ripped to shreds. There's only one Slash, same goes for Izzy, Duff etc. Trying to emulate them would have just been a watered down tribute version of a dead band. 

By evolving he definitely bewildered some people but he also remained somewhat creative and relevant? 

Good post actually. But in my opinion, despite my epic love for Bucket and Robin, Axl does need Slash to make a vintage Guns album which is what maynard said. Everything else was mostly horseshit from the little I could gather from a quick glimpse. And Izzy, Duff and Steven too.

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7 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Good post actually. But in my opinion, despite my epic love for Bucket and Robin, Axl does need Slash to make a vintage Guns album which is what Maynard said. Everything else was mostly horseshit from the little I could gather from a quick glimpse. And Izzy, Duff and Steven too.

Definitely, if you're looking for a vintage guns album Slash and co are a must. I think I'd be over the moon if Guns released something as good as World on fire... I'd just prefer if they whittled down the selection to 12-14 songs instead of 18 or however many was on World on fire, some of that album is absolutely brilliant but there are a couple of track on reflection that should have been left as either B-sides or just in the not 'A quality standard' no released songs. 

Mix of World on fire and the better parts of CD and I'm happy, seems very doable. 

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1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

Definitely, if you're looking for a vintage guns album Slash and co are a must. I think I'd be over the moon if Guns released something as good as World on fire... I'd just prefer if they whittled down the selection to 12-14 songs instead of 18 or however many was on World on fire, some of that album is absolutely brilliant but there are a couple of track on reflection that should have been left as either B-sides or just in the not 'A quality standard' no released songs. 

Mix of World on fire and the better parts of CD and I'm happy, seems very doable. 

Izzy is involved. For me personally, that makes it much better. It means there are at least 4 out of 5 original members working on material that is already written, new stuff perhaps, and the excitement of playing together and hopefully writing after 20 years. I think it can be better than world on fire, but that album contains riffs and solos that still, only Slash can do. I think Axl will try to get out of Slash some good shit and I can see that actually happening if this thing doesn't get fucked up by petty shit and ego drama. But Izzy is associating himself and Duff is there to keep it not stupid so I'm fairly optimistic.

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2 hours ago, Rovim said:

Izzy is involved. For me personally, that makes it much better. It means there are at least 4 out of 5 original members working on material that is already written, new stuff perhaps, and the excitement of playing together and hopefully writing after 20 years. I think it can be better than world on fire, but that album contains riffs and solos that still, only Slash can do. I think Axl will try to get out of Slash some good shit and I can see that actually happening if this thing doesn't get fucked up by petty shit and ego drama. But Izzy is associating himself and Duff is there to keep it not stupid so I'm fairly optimistic.

I forgot about Izzy, I would bet that he would be involved in any writing that the guys do. I find him writing with them to be far more likely than him joining them on the road (with the exception of some one offs). 

I think there's lots of potential too, but, I guess we'll have to wait and see what comes out of all this. Fingers and just about everything else crossed that they don't rest on their laurels for too long with the "reunion" nostalgia. Definitely possible that they've worked on material on the down low.

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4 hours ago, wasted said:

GNR were kind of experimenting when they mixed classic rock with punk on AFD. So I always expect something different in the pot. 

 

With Izzy writing like Niven said things are looking up. 

 

If Izzy can come up with a few ideas Axl likes it can work on the context of a record with many vibes like Chinese.

Chinese is great but it would have benefited from a few more tunes like Chinese or how UYI had those Izzy tunes like Dust N' Bones and Pretty Tied Up. My guess is Down By The Ocean is a ballad, so that's covered if it's a good song. We can have like a few Izzy rockers to balance the epics out.

Ironically, I believe that much of the Axl side of it is now completed by people like Paul that Slash and Duff didn't approve of, but there's a chance they'll record their parts on it since a lot of the big Guns were facilitated by Paul or he brought in the idea to begin with.

After UYI, they did not have a unified musical direction anymore. Not that they really had it for UYI. At least now they have a lot to choose from and many different approaches have been attempted in a Guns context so perhaps Axl can put together something that is the best of both worlds. Vintage Guns tunes with a more bluesy, traditional approach right along more futuristic tunes (for Guns)

It's a cool position to be in when you can draw from ideas that people like Robin, Bucket, Izzy, Paul, Fortus, and Slash came up with for one album. It's bound to have at least a few cool ideas in there.

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