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Ken Livingstone under fire for anti-semitism


Len Cnut

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What do you make of all this?  I think its a load of bollocks, he just stated a historical fact, that initially Hitler supported the creation of the state of Israel as in sending all jews to Israel, thats just a historical fact, its not to say that he was saying that Hitler was in favour of the state of Israel in the sense of the free nation that was created post WW2.

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I may be wrong, but I recall the issue being that Livingstone called Hitler a Zionist. That would be a very problematic thing to say, regardless of any political alignment Hitler and Zionists had in the early 30's. Hitler's Germany did make an agreement with Zionist leaders (not all Zionists supported the agreement) to safely transfer Jews in Germany and their goods (though the goods transportation was less guaranteed) to Palestine. This wasn't fueled by a desire to see the Jewish people thriving in the 'Holy Land.' It was right in line with Nazi xenophobia. Zionist leaders were cautious of Hitler early on, and they saw this as a potential way to accomplish their Zionist goals and get Jews out of a hostile political (and soon to be social) environment. One of our Third Reich experts can chime in here to elaborate, but this was a much more doable option in 1933, compared to say, oh starting up work and death camps. 

Edited by OmarBradley
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Okay, here's the quote:

Quote

"When Hitler won his election in 1932, his policy then was that Jews should be moved to Israel. He was supporting Zionism before he went mad and ended up killing six million Jews."

So he said Hitler "supported" Zionism. Not as grievous as calling Hitler a Zionist, but I still don't believe that it is historically or factually correct to say Hitler supported Zionism. One can say: Hitler's goals and [some] Zionist's goals temporarily aligned. This was not due to fundamental beliefs aligning though.

The details here are important, if you just say, "In 1933 Hitler wanted the Jews out of Germany and into Palestine," yes that's generally correct, but there's a lot more beneath the historical surface. 

I wouldn't call Ken Livingstone anti-Semitic for making the comment, but I would say he isn't paying attention to the fine details. 

Edited by OmarBradley
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Calling people an anti-Semite is just the easiest way of shutting a person down. Livingstone's words were, at worse, poorly chosen, but the drive of what he said is correct; that during the 1930s Hitler supported the belief and movement that the Jews should leave Europe and return to the Middle East. He obviously just had different reasons for wanting it to happen than the Jews themselves.

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Oh, definitely. Funnily enough I've just been called an anti-Semite by someone on YouTube for pointing out that Israel's annexation of the occupied territories for the last half century is illegal under international law. The response, for the person that I'm talking with, is that I hate the Jews, am an anti-Semite, support terrorism and all the rest of it. It's simply one of those subjects that people will jump on no matter how well crafted your points are.

I'm not even sure what Naz Shah's comments were, truth be told.

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45 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

Oh, definitely. Funnily enough I've just been called an anti-Semite by someone on YouTube for pointing out that Israel's annexation of the occupied territories for the last half century is illegal under international law. The response, for the person that I'm talking with, is that I hate the Jews, am an anti-Semite, support terrorism and all the rest of it. It's simply one of those subjects that people will jump on no matter how well crafted your points are.

I'm not even sure what Naz Shah's comments were, truth be told.

It was something she said on facebook a while ago, some proposal that America should establish a state in America for the Jews of Israel to solve the Palestine issue and give it back to the Palestinians.

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22 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

It was something she said on facebook a while ago, some proposal that America should establish a state in America for the Jews of Israel to solve the Palestine issue and give it back to the Palestinians.

I bet that was as popular as piss flavoured birthday cake.

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