Muirfield Golf Club refuses to let women join

[Sprite]

2 hours ago, downzy said:

I do think the government should play a role when it comes to racist or sexist behaviour affecting individuals even within the private sphere.  Every company or sole proprietorship has a right to refuse a customer for no reason given.  But if a reason is given and it is based on racism or sexism, they lose that right.  It was wrong in the 1960s when businesses were turning away black people and it's wrong now.  Private club or private business, discrimination is and should be illegal whether de facto or in spirit.  

"Tolerate the pain and wait for justice..."  That's what African Americans did for decades before the 1960s civil rights protests.  Sometimes equality requires a certain level of justice.  It's easy to suggest a laissez-fair approach when you and your group benefit from unequal power advantages, another when you're disadvantaged by the same system.

I agree with you in what you are saying about the government should protect and set a standard of equality. But for things that matter. To me, this is a private club's decision about a fairly unimportant aspect of equality which is "golfing freedom". It's not like telling black folks they can't drink from a public faucet. A leisurely place to go to get drunk and golf. This is a first world problem to a T. Spend 3 days out in the desert and tell me how important it is that this private club allows a woman.

I think it's apples and oranges really to compare it to the civil rights movement of the 60's. Where does it end though?

African American "safe spaces" in universities are popping up- http://www.thecollegefix.com/post/25748/

All female colleges

I have to review applications today at work. You know that question you fill out on an application, 'what race/ ethnicity are you?' Well for me that means if you pick anything other than white, you go to the top of the line. 

If this club was all female, or all Hispanic, is this a topic being discussed today on the forum?

In our crusade of equality I know we want to throw the biggest stone at whitey because there are more of him than anyone else. But that's where Gandi's line about an eye for an eye comes in. At a certain point it almost seems like being a white male gives permission to anyone else to do what they want or impose their view. How dare white males have a voice? It's not like they're human. 

Obviously I know the advantages in a lot of ways to a lot of people of being a white male. But I think my point still rings a hint of truth.

 

Throwing a wet blanket over everything doesn't fix the issue, it just creates more. Or it shifts the power dynamic over time and then you've simply flip flopped the roll.

 

But this is one of those outliers of the social action movement of ultra inclusion for anyone. First world problem. Wet blanket can't fix everything.

I'm all for equality. I'm all for a private club running their rules too. 

I'm all for Transgender bathrooms and being comfortable in the skin you feel comfortable in. A lot of those women are women. I don't know if that means Chuck should be able to change his birth certificate to say woman though and be able to take his beer bellied, full bearded self and piss next to my wife at Chili's.

Let's take it situation by situation. Ok. You want to play your silly game without females around? Have at it. I for one love women and think they enhance nearly everything!! But let's focus the attention to the 138,000 civilians killed in the middle east by America since 2003, know what i'm sayin'?

[DieselDaisy]

A little bit of trivia: up until the MCC admitted women in 1998, the Queen was the only female who could enter the Lord's Pavilion during play as a consequence of her being patron of the MCC. Some of the objections by the old ham and eggers to women being allowed are hilarious by the way; I have quotations in an old Wisden - I will try to post them later - stuff like, ''I would not know how to act with women around''.

Edited May 20, 2016 by DieselDaisy

[spunko12345]

The English football team only let's English people play for them. Bastards.

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

The English football team only let's English people play for them. Bastards.

They should take a leaf out of the cricket team who hire South Africans. Any German footballers care to switch passports?

[downzy]

1 hour ago, Sprite said:

I agree with you in what you are saying about the government should protect and set a standard of equality. But for things that matter. To me, this is a private club's decision about a fairly unimportant aspect of equality which is "golfing freedom". It's not like telling black folks they can't drink from a public faucet. A leisurely place to go to get drunk and golf. This is a first world problem to a T. Spend 3 days out in the desert and tell me how important it is that this private club allows a woman.

I think it's apples and oranges really to compare it to the civil rights movement of the 60's. Where does it end though?

If this club was all female, or all Hispanic, is this a topic being discussed today on the forum?

In our crusade of equality I know we want to throw the biggest stone at whitey because there are more of him than anyone else. But that's where Gandi's line about an eye for an eye comes in. At a certain point it almost seems like being a white male gives permission to anyone else to do what they want or impose their view. How dare white males have a voice? It's not like they're human. 

Obviously I know the advantages in a lot of ways to a lot of people of being a white male. But I think my point still rings a hint of truth.

 

Throwing a wet blanket over everything doesn't fix the issue, it just creates more. Or it shifts the power dynamic over time and then you've simply flip flopped the roll.

 

But this is one of those outliers of the social action movement of ultra inclusion for anyone. First world problem. Wet blanket can't fix everything.

I'm all for equality. I'm all for a private club running their rules too. 

I'm all for Transgender bathrooms and being comfortable in the skin you feel comfortable in. A lot of those women are women. I don't know if that means Chuck should be able to change his birth certificate to say woman though and be able to take his beer bellied, full bearded self and piss next to my wife at Chili's.

Let's take it situation by situation. Ok. You want to play your silly game without females around? Have at it. I for one love women and think they enhance nearly everything!! But let's focus the attention to the 138,000 civilians killed in the middle east by America since 2003, know what i'm sayin'?

If we agree that it should be illegal for people to be discriminated against, then I'm not sure there's much room for discussion relating what "matters."  It maybe unimportant to you, but it might be important to the injured party.  Sure, it's not like telling black people not to drink from a public water fountain, but that wasn't the limit of the civil rights movement of the 1960s.  The 14th amendment protects discrimination within the private sphere, not just the public.  Granted, we're talking about a golf course in Scotland, and I'm unaware of Scottish law with respect to discrimination within the private sphere, but the point is still valid with respect to our conversation.  Are you not familiar with the sit-in protests of the 1960s?

Again, if we agree that discrimination based on colour, creed, or sex should be rendered illegal, then the merits and largely the context of such discrimination does not matter.  Otherwise, you then create a situation where discrimination becomes an arbitrary matter; who is then responsible for that decision?  You, the person who generally is not harmed by such discrimination?  

I would make the same argument if women or Hispanic-centred organization or businesses discriminated against non-women or hispanics.   

You're being overtly sensitive and highly hyperbolic with respect to white men.  White men are free to do whatever they want, just like black women or any other racial or sex.  What they're not allowed to do, as goes with any other demographic, is wholesale discrimination against another particular demographic, particularly if the power dynamic favours them.   It's only in the past 30 to 40 years has white male patriarchy been truly challenged, and the response from some in the group has been to over-dramatize the movement towards a more equal society.  We're never going to make equal opportunity complete, but that doesn't mean we should stop trying.  

Again, private clubs can run their affairs how they see fit.  But they should still respect the law (assuming Scottish law forbids discrimination on the grounds of gender of sex).  Should we allow private clubs to break other laws because they're private?  Should they be allowed to harass guests or members because it happens to be apart of their tradition and/or rules?

Ultimately, who is making the more ridiculous argument here: the men who feel uncomfortable allowing women anywhere near their golf club (unless they give permission) or the women who want the same opportunity to play one of the great golf courses in the world without having to go hat in hand to their male masters?  

And yes, there are far more important issues to be arguing about.  But that doesn't mean the women who wish to become members should have to wait until every other social ill and problem gets resolved before they get to be members.  

10 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

The English football team only let's English people play for them. Bastards.

Well, not really the same situation, is it?  It's far easier for a non-English citizen to become an English citizen (especially if they're really great at football) than it is for a woman to become a man to become a member of Muirfield.  

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, downzy said:

Well, not really the same situation, is it?  It's far easier for a non-English citizen to become an English citizen (especially if they're really great at football) than it is for a woman to become a man to become a member of Muirfield.  

I think he was joking (the English are shockingly bad at football).

[downzy]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I think he was joking (the English are shockingly bad at football).

Ahhh....  As a Canadian I'm woefully ignorant about football/soccer.  

[PappyTron]

The way that I see it, without writing a long post is broadly as follows:

Business dealing with the public - Should have to adhere to discrimination laws.

Private club - Should be free to choose who can become members.

[Graeme]

1 minute ago, PappyTron said:

The way that I see it, without writing a long post is broadly as follows:

Business dealing with the public - Should have to adhere to discrimination laws.

Private club - Should be free to choose who can become members.

Nobody is bringing a legal challenge against Muirfield over its decision as a private club to permit only male members. 

However, the Open Championship has decided that Muirfield may no longer host the tournament because of its refusal to become more inclusive, as is their right.

It is also the right of individuals to express disappointment with the club's decision and to point out that there has still been no intellectual justification for excluding women, leading a sports journalist to conclude: 

"The Muirfield based Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, have, at best, been left to look out of touch with modern thinking. At worst, they look like a bunch of selfish bigots who have no place at the top of the game."

[PappyTron]

50 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Nobody is bringing a legal challenge against Muirfield over its decision as a private club to permit only male members. 

However, the Open Championship has decided that Muirfield may no longer host the tournament because of its refusal to become more inclusive, as is their right.

It is also the right of individuals to express disappointment with the club's decision and to point out that there has still been no intellectual justification for excluding women, leading a sports journalist to conclude: 

"The Muirfield based Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, have, at best, been left to look out of touch with modern thinking. At worst, they look like a bunch of selfish bigots who have no place at the top of the game."

I don't disagree with any of that, and that was actually set to be my follow up point; that Muirfield cannot complain if sponsors or tour organisers look to take their business elsewhere, and that is as it should be. Like anything, you have the right to do XYZ and others have the right to react accordingly.

[DieselDaisy]

People can thing what they want of them but they have a right to be what they are, or what they want to be.

[spunko12345]

1 hour ago, Graeme said:

Nobody is bringing a legal challenge against Muirfield over its decision as a private club to permit only male members. 

However, the Open Championship has decided that Muirfield may no longer host the tournament because of its refusal to become more inclusive, as is their right.

It is also the right of individuals to express disappointment with the club's decision and to point out that there has still been no intellectual justification for excluding women, leading a sports journalist to conclude: 

"The Muirfield based Honourable Company of Edinburgh Golfers, have, at best, been left to look out of touch with modern thinking. At worst, they look like a bunch of selfish bigots who have no place at the top of the game."

The thing is though they don't have to justify it. They just prefer it to be how it is now (as ridiculous as it is to most people under 40). When i go to my local pub I don't get to decide who's allowed in but if i installed a bar in my garage I could choose who I allowed in, and I'd be fucked if i had to explain the whys and why nots. None of you cunts would be allowed in for a start

[DieselDaisy]

I never get very passionate against things like this, but then I'm not very politically correct. I do not understand how people need to get passionate about things like this. The chances of many women joining are slim anyhow.

[Len Cnut]

Isnt a safe space one of those little containers they put spastics in to stop them from hurting themselves?

15 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

The thing is though they don't have to justify it. They just prefer it to be how it is now (as ridiculous as it is to most people under 40). When i go to my local pub I don't get to decide who's allowed in but if i installed a bar in my garage I could choose who I allowed in, and I'd be fucked if i had to explain the whys and why nots. None of you cunts would be allowed in for a start

Oh go on, I'll bring a bottle and a Pavarotti LP!

[Graeme]

20 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

The thing is though they don't have to justify it. They just prefer it to be how it is now (as ridiculous as it is to most people under 40). When i go to my local pub I don't get to decide who's allowed in but if i installed a bar in my garage I could choose who I allowed in, and I'd be fucked if i had to explain the whys and why nots. None of you cunts would be allowed in for a start

Aye, but your garage bar is not as yet a world-famous drinking establishment at which an association of pubs may potentially hold a prestigious event but not for the fact that you couldn't explain why you normally wouldn't let half of them in...

Ultimately, political correctness is usually just about trying to treat most people with a bit of fucking decency.

 

[DieselDaisy]

Spunko's bar might go big places - you never know!

[PappyTron]

Spunko's Bar: Where Everyone Knows Your Name.

Edited May 20, 2016 by PappyTron

[netcat]

42 minutes ago, Graeme said:

 

42 minutes ago, Graeme said:

Aye, but your garage bar is not as yet a world-famous drinking establishment at which an association of pubs may potentially hold a prestigious event but not for the fact that you couldn't explain why you normally wouldn't let half of them in...

that would be The Blue Oyster bar 

[Len Cnut]

1 hour ago, PappyTron said:

Spunko's Bar: Where Everyone Knows Your Name.

Big mural of Sean the Sheep behind the bar getting done up the arse by Wallace

Edited May 20, 2016 by Len B'stard

[PappyTron]

30 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

Big mural of Sean the Sheep behind the bar getting done up the arse by Wallace

Spunko's Bar: Ewe Are always Welcome.

[Len Cnut]