What went wrong with NUGNR?

[MillionsOfSpiders]

What happened in nugnr is 100%  all on Axl himself. His own control freak, paranoid self. 

I always think it's karma, all the shit performances, the vocal problems, writers block etc etc it's karma kicking Axls ass cos he was such a massive dick about things and ultimately ruined a great band. 

Slash wasn't the original guitarist is just lol 

They did a handful of gigs with the tracii guns line up. That is nothing, nothing on the GNR legacy. (Apart from pinching his name )

Edited May 23, 2016 by MillionsOfSpiders

[darkknite63]

Axl went wrong. Up until 2008 he was fine-ish. After 2008 with the poor reception on Chi-Dem and changing music tastes. He lost hope on a new album and so did the band that's why they made their money and then parted ways. Axl was and always will be controlling and manipulative even with the return of Slash and Duff. And it never had the spirit of Guns N' Roses it was always GN'R.

Edited May 23, 2016 by darkknite63

[Rovim]

11 minutes ago, BOSSY78 said:

A lot of great points that I didn't touch on. I agree there was much going on.

I remember when he said they tried to push a reunion on him and they weren't the only ones. You had Axl basically saying that people wanted it for their own reasons with disregard for how it would affect him.

Emotionally I think he was done at the timewith ex members. It wasn't good for his health so to speak but it never stopped millions of fans from blaming him for not doing what they wanted again with complete disregard to how it would affect him.

 

Like I said to many it was all Axl's fault. I was trying to think of a way to be objective yet present more then one side and you nailed a lot of it.

I think he was still bitter about Slash even after Chinese was released. It can be a heavy weight to carry, especially for a "sensitive guy" like Axl imo.

He talked about Slash and how he was needed to create an AFD-vibed album. He wanted Slash on a few Chinese tunes back in 2001 according to Marc, but he was clearly still bitter and angry cause he wanted a public apology.

It's like doing it on his own doesn't really work for him. The confidence that I see in the 2016 shows is something I think he gets from Slash and Duff with him up there and what their talent and chemistry provides is the confidence and organic way to create a Guns album in a more ideal way. Like you don't have to worry it won't sound like Guns in a way, and there is a kind of a division between Axl and every other new Guns member that makes it probably harder to move forward with confidence.

It only proved to me the Chinese Era that Axl can do it on his own, but not really. It's gonna be in slow motion and nightmarish. So it "failed" cause he couldn't keep it together for whatever reason, and other people may have tried to sabotage or fucked it up more, but it's more challenging to keep a band like Guns going without Slash and Duff  for Axl imo.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Rovim

[BOSSY78]

1 minute ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

What happened in nugnr is 100%  all on Axl himself. His own control freak, paranoid self. 

I always think it's karma, all the shit performances, the vocal problems, writers block etc etc it's karma kicking Axls ass cos he was such a massive dick about things and ultimately ruined a great band. 

Slash wasn't the original guitarist is just lol 

They did a handful of gigs with the tracii guns line up. That is nothing, nothing on the GNR legacy. 

Never claimed it was. In fact I agree Slash is a part of the GnR legacy which is the classic lineup of GnR. It doesn't negate from the fact people as my post said claimed Axl rose had no right or shouldn't perform under the GnR name when Axl was GnR before Slash. That was my point. Not on the legacy.

I'm also not gonna sit around and pretend I know the truth. I know what people have said it doesn't make Axls, Slash or any other band members stories fact.  The fact remains the same because of Axls reputation he is the blame for it all.

But for shitss and giggles I will point out Slash has said numerous of times during what I will call the cold war years Axl doesn't lie no matter how he makes you feel. 

His along with Duffs book both say their story on how things went down doesn't mean that someone else's meaning Axl's wasn't right it was just how they seen it.

Sure Axl's a diva and an ass hole it doesn't mean it's all his fault. I put it somewhere on a little of all of them.

As far as NuGnR I'd say it's a mixture of many things. Some being his some being the things going on around him. 

I don't listen to rock n roll because it's all hearts and flowers many bands have issues. It's rock n roll.

 

[BOSSY78]

8 minutes ago, Rovim said:

I think he was still bitter about Slash even after Chinese was released. It can be a heavy weight to carry, especially for a "sensitive guy" like Axl imo.

He talked about Slash and how he was needed to create an AFD-vibed album. He wanted Slash on a few Chinese tunes back in 2001 according to Marc, but he was clearly still bitter and angry cause he wanted a public apology.

It's like doing it on his own doesn't really work for him. The confidence that I see in the 2016 shows is something I think he gets from Slash and Duff with him up there and what their talent and chemistry provides is the confidence and organic way to create a Guns album in a more ideal way. Like you don't have to worry it won't sound like Guns in a way, and there is a kind of a division between Axl and every other new Guns member that makes it probably harder to move forward with confidence.

It only proved to me the Chinese Era that Axl can do it on his own, but not really. It's gonna be in slow motion and nightmarish. So it "failed" cause he couldn't keep it together for whatever reason, and other people may have tried to sabotage or fucked it up more, but it's more challenging to keep a band like Guns going without Slash and Duff  for Axl imo.

Your absolutely right. I remember when he wanted Slash on some songs. Of course we also had the whole Slash going to Axl's house ordeal too. Wasn't it said then Axl was under the assumption Slash wanted to finally move on from this?  But then he continued to diss Axl and even lied in the media about coming there before later changing his story?

Axl does seem more comfortable now. I don't know if that's the right word since I do feel he found some happiness during the NuGuns era as well. Most of those guys speak highly of him even now.

 

I think it's more he know their capabilities with NuGuns and even the making of CD so many people were involved with it. Like he needed many to produce a sound he wanted unlike when the classic lineup was around.

 

 

[Rovim]

45 minutes ago, BOSSY78 said:

Your absolutely right. I remember when he wanted Slash on some songs. Of course we also had the whole Slash going to Axl's house ordeal too. Wasn't it said then Axl was under the assumption Slash wanted to finally move on from this?  But then he continued to diss Axl and even lied in the media about coming there before later changing his story?

Axl does seem more comfortable now. I don't know if that's the right word since I do feel he found some happiness during the NuGuns era as well. Most of those guys speak highly of him even now.

 

I think it's more he know their capabilities with NuGuns and even the making of CD so many people were involved with it. Like he needed many to produce a sound he wanted unlike when the classic lineup was around.

 

 

Yeah, he said in the 2002 VMA's interview he didn't know if it's ever been done before quite like this, rebuilding an established sound with different members when the intention is to create a "true Guns album". That's really bold if you think about it.

And the problem with that is what comes naturally to Slash and Duff is the Guns sound, they are the Guns sound, at least two fifths of it.

What's astonishing to me as a new Guns fan, is that there are moments on the album that some of that magic was captured. Some of that Guns magic. I know many will disagree, but there are moments of Guns brilliance on it like Axl knew exactly what are the Guns elements that were required to achieve this.

But Slash can probably just noodle for a few minutes and come up with a mean riff or an idea that Axl can turn into a true Guns song and it will always be true. My guess is Duff somehow knows what feels right in a Guns tune. They have done this before many times.

I'm still glad it happened and ironically it might help Axl, Slash, and Duff with finding the musical direction for the next true Guns album. Better was a perfect Axl and Robin collaboration. Bucket nailed it with his There Was A Time outro.

Will Slash even have to be awake to come up with ideas that will work with Axl's Guns ambitions? it's always better when you have more Guns members in Guns N' Roses. Axl did not have that advantage for 20 years and he paid a price for it. Artistically and financially. I even think emotionally as well I think Slash means a lot to him and Duff as well.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Rovim

[Strange Broue]

11 hours ago, Len B'stard said:

Their formation, thats where they went wrong.

pretty much this

 

That being said, i've enjoyed the 2 NuGNR shows

8 hours ago, AlexC said:

Hahahaha! He's like an urban legend around here, whenever he's out of prison I start seeing people I know posting pics of sightings of him all over Facebook

I thought that his profile pic is a dead body's face

[BOSSY78]

16 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Yeah, he said in the 2002 VMA's interview he didn't know if it's ever been done before quite like this, rebuilding an establish sound with different members when the intention is to create a "true Guns album". That's really bold if you think about it.

And the problem with that is what comes naturally to Slash and Duff is the Guns sound, they are the Guns sound, at least two fifths of it.

What's astonishing to me as a new Guns fan, is that there are moments on the album that some of that magic was captured. Some of that Guns magic. I know many will disagree, but there are moments of Guns brilliance on it like Axl knew exactly what are the Guns elements that were required to achieve this.

But Slash can probably noodle for a few minutes and come up with a mean riff or an idea that Axl can turn into a true Guns song and it will always be true. My guess is Duff somehow knows what feels right in a Guns tune. They have done this before many times.

I'm still glad it happened and ironically it might help Axl, Slash, and Duff with finding the musical direction for the next true Guns album. Better was a perfect Axl and Robin collaboration. Bucket nailed it with his There Was A Time outro.

Will Slash even have to be awake to come up with ideas that will work with Axl's Guns ambitions? it's always better when you have more Guns members in Guns N' Roses. Axl did not have that advantage for 20 years and he paid a price for it. Artistically and financially. I even think emotionally as well I think Slash means a lot to him and Duff as well.

We'll said.

I too think that's what he was missing hence the different musicians on each song in CD.

A great album but perhaps it could have been done in less time and with less musicians if Slash and Duff were around.

Axl wanted a certain sound.To me it showed even though he wanted to evolve the music he still was keeping it within GnR sounds. Something that has been despite quite a bit. Sure there was a lot on there that was more Axl but the album would have been great with the classic lineup.

My only peeve thus far is TIL. I know Slash seems to be playing around with it but I like the original better so far.

 

As far as artistically I agree he's paid a price somewhat as he said himself it affected him artistically

 Financially not sure. I know he did well with NuGnR but perhaps not as good with Classic or Illusions.

I think other members have faired worse financially.

I'm glad we get to see the magic again but I still have a respect for NUGNR and what they brought individually.

Edited May 23, 2016 by BOSSY78
added

[Len Cnut]

2 minutes ago, Strange Broue said:

pretty much this

 

That being said, i've enjoyed the 2 NuGNR shows

I thought that his profile pic is a dead body's face

I dont think anybody on earth thought NuGnR was a good idea, including Axl inasmuch as it wasn't his preference, it was a response to circumstances, i mean he said so in Rio when he said, and i cant remember the exact words but something like I'm as aggrieved as you are that unlike Oasis we could not all find a way to get along'.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Len B'stard

[BOSSY78]

4 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

I dont think anybody on earth thought NuGnR was a good idea, including Axl inasmuch as it wasn't his preference, it was a response to circumstances, i mean he said so in Rio when he said, and i cant remember the exact words but something like I'm as aggrieved as you are that unlike Oasis we could not all find a way to get along'.

Through many of his final rants and raves during concerts he made statements. 

He has made it clear it wasn't what he wanted. We all would like to say he was wrong for this or that but I can understand his fears he had then.

I think after a while NuGnR became a sort of happy place. He didn't have to worry about a lot of things. No more power struggled and worries over who's gonna overdose and who's girlfriends would try to take over the band or manage a band member. No more fights over musical style. Etc etc. Though he knew the magic wasn't the same.

[Strange Broue]

1 hour ago, Rovim said:

My trying to be objective opinion is that it did not totally fail if I look at it as a fan. It could have been so much more probably, but I feel like Axl was very limited not as a musician, but more as a person perhaps.

He did not pull the trigger when he probably should have, it took too long to gain momentum and it was not consistent enough to grow naturally. He wasn't there a lot of the time according to past new Guns members and he couldn't let the album go.

I think artistically he did it, against all odds, an album no one has really created before in such a way, and the outcome was something that I feel does justice to the legacy of Axl. The quality is there.

I suspect it wasn't all on Axl, that people tried to make a reunion happen, Ezrin, RTB, and Iovine probably made matters worse, and the label didn't think it was good enough, maybe more than once.

And all this shit is going down while Axl is as insecure as ever, trying to prove he can do it with a different band. He said it's a miracle it got released.

To be brutally honest, I don't think Guns was meant to exist without Slash and Duff. I'm not saying Izzy cause he doesn't like drama and huge epic albums and tours. Steven is not as crucial but I recognize his significance of course.

Welll, considering that the majority of their biggest hits (sans November Rain) wrote by Izzy Stradlin, your point is moot. After Izzy left, they can't write anything like they used to,  because he was the key factor in songwriting. Of coure that the songs needed everyone's input, but the key part to cohesive sound and songs was Izzy and the downfall started when their ego's can't make any compromise (remember the " you play on my song, then i play on yours" thing?)  Even Axl admitted that he begged Izzy to come back, because he knew that they can't really sustain their style without him. That's why he wanted to try new things and Slash wanted to keep their roots. Not just because of the so called "evolved GNR" vision.... The rest is history

Edited May 23, 2016 by Strange Broue

[Lies They Tell]

I liked new GNR. In my opinion the only problem was that they didn't release enough music. And that's probably because Axl lacked confidence without Slash. He didn't want to ruin the GNR name. He wanted to do things right, so in the end it seemed like he was afraid to do anything, cause without Slash the majority of people hated everything he did, no matter what. If he did things differently compared to old GNR, people hated it. If he tried to bring in a Slash clone, people hated it. There's nothing he could have done, without the majority of people hating it. So in the end it's a matter of opinion what went wrong with the band. In my opinion lack of new music was the only real problem. But some might say new GNR shouldn't have existed in the first place.

[Nosaj Thing]

lol nugnr

Fuck that shit!

[action]

Apart from the image being twisted and turned to the point of being unreckognisable, the lack of songwriters in the band, the absence of Slash and the condition of Axl's voice, I believe the main issue was that even Axl himself didn't give a shit.

The start of NUGNR was erratic and uninspired. Axl turned up in bad shape and a broken voice. And while he had some technically "virtuoso" guitarists in the band, none of them were great or even good songwriters. Buckethead a brilliant guitarist? Where is Buckethead's "appetite for destruction" I ask you. His image was wrong and he couldn't write a catchy lick if his life depended on it. Chinese democracry consists mainly of weird, tired, numetal guitar licks. It's "GnR", not "Guns n fucking Roses".

Then we got years of drought and uncertainty, and a revolving cast of freaks and hacks.

Of all the things Axl did in the middle ages of GNR history, there is one decision which, in retrospect, I applaud. It is the lack of new albums.

Chinese democracy, to me, was grotesque. It is not what I would call a guns n roses record, let alone a good one. Where are the catchy, rolling powerchords? where are the inspired lyrics? Where are the drugs / whores / cops? In stead we got self pitying, paranoid rantings and empty tirades. "Why would they tell me to please those that laugh in my face. Ask yourself, If I would chose to prostitute myself"=> what the hell was that about? 8 years later and Axl is performing happily with Slash again. If I  never hear that wretched album again, I wont miss it.

Imagine then, if we had MORE than one failure like chinese democracy. No, no. we don't need more of that shit. CD should have never happened. And I was waiting for it as much as anyone else and bought it on release date. It's a diary of a very depressing time in GNR, and I don't need that. I want to rock out on great GNR songs, of which there are none to be found on this album. Every CD song that gets played, means loo time. I can now safely say that not even Slash and Duff can save them. It should be discarded from the Guns N Roses canon altogether.

Edited May 23, 2016 by action

[WAR41]

15 hours ago, CardinalGunner said:

I presume you are referring to the Slash-less years.

For whatever its worth, I attended and greatly enjoyed several shows in the 2000s.     Kind of lost interest during the DJ Ashba years.  

The lineup with Buckethead and Finck, hugely talented and so much potential that unfortunately did not get to reach full potential.

Chinese Democracy however, is a great album. 

 

 

Was just starting to read through this thread and saw yours.  Sums up my feelings pretty well. 

I was so intrigued by the shows in the 2000's.  I had tickets to see GNR in South Carolina in 2002 but the tour was cancelled.  I finally saw GNR play for the first time at the second Hammerstein show in 2006.  Have seen them a bunch of times since then, but once I saw the band with DJ Ashba in East Rutherford, NJ. my interest waned.  I documented my feelings about him on HTGTH after that show. 

I remember after the Hammerstein shows in 2006 that I felt like Axl had accomplished his mission.  The band sounded great, they looked like they were having a lot of fun onstage and Axl looked the happiest and healthiest I'd ever seen in the history of GNR.  Izzy even came up to guest with Axl onstage so he had seemingly mended bridges with the old band in some way.  That animosity was dissipating. In my opinion, those shows were without question the high point of NuGNR. 

I saw the band again when they toured that fall/winter and it was already becoming stale with the same setlist.  That and the fact that CD had yet to come out.  If you had told me before the MSG show on that tour that I would have to wait another 2 years to see CD I never would have believed you.  I thought Axl had the momentum that if he had released the album around that time it would have been much more successful than it ended up being. 

As far as what I think went wrong, once Robin left the band I think Axl gave up.  He completely settled for some one like DJ Ashba who is reliable, but not the level of player/songwriter that GNR needs.  Axl was coasting.  It always bothered me because I felt like he had worked so hard after Slash left the band to prove the doubters wrong, but he had given up. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by WAR41
answering the original post

[dgnr]

What went wrong? The whole idea of NuGNR was wrong, so basically: 'In a nutshell, personally I consider it a cancer and better removed, avoided — and the less anyone heard of it, the better'
 

[killuridols]

What went wrong is calling it "Guns N' Roses" when it was just Axl with some guys who didn't write one chord of GN'R music.

Had he gone solo, and released Chinese Democracy before 2006, it would have been successful for him as a solo artist.

[Apollo]

* lack of musical output from a new band. How can a band stand on their own without their own music 

* too many lineup changes 

* Axl refusing to promote his new lineups or one album

* die hard fans were pissed about breakup and Axl keeping the name. Instead of overwhelming those fans - Axl underwhelmed them by not showing up to tours in shape, very little interaction with media, disappearing for years at a time, Yoda, team Brazil, and again - one album in twenty years. 

* bossy78 Lol. You keep saying you are trying to present an unbiased look at what happened. You are horrible at subtly. 99% or what you've posted is just defending Axl and blaming others for his failures over the past 25 years. I hate to pop your bubble, but Everybody involved in the original band - yes, Tracii and Ole so NOT count - was to blame. But Axl was to blame the most. Bro, you can still be a diehard Axl fan and still admit he made mistakes. And while Axl might think the entire world is out to get him - you, as a fan, should be smarter than that. 

[DieselDaisy]

Here is a ground breaking opinion: what if the failure of Chinese was Axl's fault - not malicious record company execs or aggrieved band mates, not litigation, but Axl's fault. He had $13 million, some of the most talented musicians assembled in one room and some of the greatest production teams. In light of that fact, the idea of Axl as a victim - connived against, hampered, hamstrung by duplicitous music industry types - is completely absurd. Chinese was probably the most supported (by the record company) album in the history of rock.

 

[Binge_And_Slash]

@UK SUBS said it best, several years ago. The wait for CD was the undoing, I believe Subs said "Axl could have 12 tracks that were Jungle, Paradise City and SCOM and people would still say its shit and not worth the wait". 

To a degree I understand, one of my biggest infurations is it seemed in 2010 - 2014 they got the marketing live shows right (Up Close and Personal and Vegas Residencys) but it was too little too late, that should have happened in the 2001-2002 era, heck maybe even the 2006 era at a stretch. For what reason, we don't know, it just didn't happen (most likely not having decent management at that time... whatever happened to Mercky Merck anyway?)

I really liked Buckethead & Finck, but Axl's voice was out live. 2006 - 2010 Axl's voice was great, but as time went on it became clearer (especially in Vegas residency 2014) that nothing was ever going to happen now, and I guess I can see the point, Axl's replacement GNR were gone, and it was replacements of replacements. He probably got on with them all, great, but that isn't who HE wanted. (Aside from Fortus after Tobias left)

But the fact that Slash & Duff are at least willing to play Chinese stuff on the reunion tour gives me a little bit of hope that the leftover Chinese stuff isn't all dead and buried, it will probably have Slash and Duff re-recording parts, which means we'll lose some (guaranteed) great Buckethead solos and some (according to Axl) great Robin Finck solos.  I don't think Bumble will feature on any of that. Ashba... maybe.  Fortus yes..

[DieselDaisy]

If you could take Axl's 2006 vox and apply it to the 2002 band, that would be the best line-up of Nugnr by a country mile.

Edited May 23, 2016 by DieselDaisy

[J Dog]

He was fighting an uphill battle when he kept the GNR name and he was the only one left.

I still think nuGnR had a small chance with the Bucket/Brain/Robin lineup. But the VMAs left a bad taste in people's mouth and then the sudden tour cancellation halfway through which resulted in Bucket leaving, all that was the real killer. If they could have finished that tour and released CD then, they might could have had something.

[sanity_lost]

How long it took to release new music. I think that is the biggest problem. Sure the fanatical without Duff/Slash/Izzy fans would still hate it and think it was the worst thing ever, but your more casual fans would give it a go without the crazy weight of extremely built up heavy expectation. If they got an album out right away then followed it up relatively quickly with another (and the same players) then people would have a chance to adjust to a new sound and new players with the first one and have a better idea of what to expect from the next.

 

[ChineseIRS]

If we're being totally objective the only real successes of NuGNR was the 2006 and 2010 tours, and the release of Chinese actually coming to fruition. But even that was 2 years too late and Axl shot the whole thing in the foot by not even promoting it.

[auad]

I was always new gnr enthusiast, and preferred that the band had worked more and more music released. always preferred that to a "meeting"