What went wrong with NUGNR?

[janrichmond]

i never bothered with NuGuns, I saw the VMA thing and thought 'that aint GNR' and 'whats happened to Axl?' 2 or 3 songs and he was puffing and panting and sounded weird.

[thunderram]

On 5/22/2016 at 3:29 PM, -W.A.R- said:

it was doomed from the start as i think Axl alienated the core base by bringing out a freakshow lineup

 

^^ THIS.

Playing under the GN'R name comes with certain expectations. Had Axl simply decided to use another name for the NEW band, things could/would have been different.

For example, Velvet Revolver -- which was statistically closer to GN'R than NuGNR -- didn't at all come under the same scrutiny or expectation. Because it wasn't packaged as something that it wasn't. Same goes for all of the other band names Slash, Izzy, Duff, Matt and Steven played under.

Conversely, had Slash, Duff, Izzy, etc. ended up with the GN'R name and used it similarly, they would have been under the same expectation and endured the same scrutiny.

I understand why Axl wanted to use the GN'R name, but, IMO, it would have made much more sense and been more fair to allow the new band to build their own name and stand upon their own merits.

Edited May 24, 2016 by thunderram

[Hasan--97]

So many great points but the main one being keeping the Guns N Roses name.... that was the real killer. It had more bad then good moments but its not something i would erase from my memory

Rock in rio 01 just had something special & them 2006/2010 shows Axl was as badass as they get.

 

Edited May 23, 2016 by Hasan--97

[Bono]

It was doomed from the start because it's painfully obvious Axl's heart was NEVER into  NuGnR.  He'll be more productive now in the next year with Slash and Duff than he ever could or would have been with NuGnR because now finally he has guys back in the band who are able to help bring his vision to fruition and add to it as well.  There is no doubt in my mind Axl never wanted NuGnR to exist. It was simply all he had though and his ego got in the way.

[Rustycage]

No Gilby.

[Mr. Dude]

On ‎5‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 5:31 PM, DieselDaisy said:

How long have you got?

Til the end of time.....

 

Its true.

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, Bono said:

It was doomed from the start because it's painfully obvious Axl's heart was NEVER into  NuGnR.  He'll be more productive now in the next year with Slash and Duff than he ever could or would have been with NuGnR because now finally he has guys back in the band who are able to help bring his vision to fruition and add to it as well.  There is no doubt in my mind Axl never wanted NuGnR to exist. It was simply all he had though and his ego got in the way.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I think in the beginning, around 2001 when he had the Bucket, he thought he could turn GN'R into a sort of NIN, revolving cast, experimental project. If Chinese was released in 2001 or 2002 and was successful, (big ifs, I know!), that would have (quasi) justified his power grab: ''look, I told you all along that I was the 'only original member' and the brains behind the operation'.

With CD and Nugnr flopping like a pair of saggy breasts, Axl learnt that he is not Guns, and that he needs Slash and others for it to be considered Guns. Getting Slash to play This I Love is merely a face saving exercise.

From 2010 I'd agree with you. 2010 onward Axl had given up the fight and was just there to make money basically.

[wasted]

Not sure I agree completely because CD is partly about Axl's sadness about the demise of GNR. He struggles with it, he tries to explain. CD isn't whoo hoo I'm free fuck you. It kind of cycles through all the emotions until the world ends on If the World. 

Axl had his side of the story, how he didn't push anyone out and he didn't feel he could lose everything. 

I don't think he learned that he needed Slash to be GNR. He always wanted Slash. Even wanted him on CD. He totally appreciated what Slash did in GNR but maybe was bitter over Slash leaving and making it Axl's fault. 

But I think Axl is always a realist and was cautious with certain nu Guns material. 

I think it took along time for him to know what he was trying to do. 

Obviously the rage all came out on the Beavan record. Tear up the play book kind of thing. But the label probably questioned it. 

So all along Axl want's an apology, he wants Slash on CD even. But the media, fans, everyone saving face, it's hard to recover all of that especially with no benefit from it. Slash would have play under the Lord Axl and not get to rock out like he wants. 

So in the end it makes sense Axl let's Slash back in, he always wanted him in GNR. But Slash ran off and gave us the reasons. They are fair enough. We never got Axl telling us his gripes with Slash's Guns input other than his lack of enthuiasm. 

I think Slash and Duff did the right thing for them personally. As they obviously weren't happy in GNR. 

But now with distance and not too many strings attached and money they can bring GNR back to the metal masses where they belong. 

[ZoSoRose]

A. Calling it GNR

B. The clusterfuck that was the 2002 tour

C. Not putting out Chinese in time and releasing steady music

D. Dissapearing for years at a time

For the record, I love Chinese and the shows I saw but yeah...

[Silent Jay]

What went wrong after the Illusion tour? Seven years in the dark. 

 

[Riddick Bowe]

When Buckethead left, the new band lost too much

[Rovim]

15 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Here is a ground breaking opinion: what if the failure of Chinese was Axl's fault - not malicious record company execs or aggrieved band mates, not litigation, but Axl's fault. He had $13 million, some of the most talented musicians assembled in one room and some of the greatest production teams. In light of that fact, the idea of Axl as a victim - connived against, hampered, hamstrung by duplicitous music industry types - is completely absurd. Chinese was probably the most supported (by the record company) album in the history of rock.

 

That is ground breaking. I just thought of another: what if Axl made the record he wanted to make (with the people he had at his disposal at the time) and even got a deal which made profit before it sold any copies? then he toured it with great live performances in 2010, playing every song from the album. (Riad was played in 2002)

So to sum up: he only released 1 album in 25 years, but it was the album he wanted to make according to him, and he also made money and toured all over the world. This is not a failure. It's no huge success compared to old Guns, but he completed an album and a tour.

What if it wasn't all on Axl, and the pressure of a reunion did damage his plans with new Guns? others talked about people fuckin' it up, it wasn't just Axl. I'd say his insecurities and obsessive nature were some of the main reasons it took so long.

 

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, Rovim said:

That is ground breaking. I just thought of another: what if Axl made the record he wanted to make (with the people he had at his disposal at the time) and even got a deal which made profit before it sold any copies? then he toured it with great live performances in 2010, playing every song from the album. (Riad was played in 2002)

So to sum up: he only released 1 album in 25 years, but it was the album he wanted to make according to him, and he also made money and toured all over the world. This is not a failure. It's no huge success compared to old Guns, but he completed an album and a tour.

What if it wasn't all on Axl, and the pressure of a reunion did damage his plans with new Guns? others talked about people fuckin' it up, it wasn't just Axl. I'd say his insecurities and obsessive nature were some of the main reasons it took so long.

 

If Nugnr were not a failure, then why is he playing the hits with Slash and Duff in the summer, and why is CD2 seemingly dead and buried?

 

[Rovim]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

If Nugnr were not a failure, then why is he playing the hits with Slash and Duff in the summer, and why is CD2 seemingly dead and buried?

 

He's also playing some Chinese tunes with Slash and Duff. And we don't know what Axl's plans for CD ll are, or the material in the vault. Slash reworked the Better intro live so maybe he can rework some of the material in the studio to make it more Guns.

Band members left. Axl could have not predicted what will happen with Duff and then Slash. It seems looking back now, that he didn't pull the trigger on CD ll with Bumble and DJ in the band, he didn't include them like Paul, Robin, Bucket, and even Fortus.

New Guns is more than just 1 line up obviously, Axl basically had the studio line up and then the live line up that only played the material live for years, but Slash is playing This I Love live, and 3 other tunes from Chinese. That's not a failure imo. On the contrary, it could mean the CD ll material is something Slash will be willing to work with.

If Axl actually wants to do something with this line up, I'm guessing an album of unreleased Axl tunes will come in handy. If Axl uses some material from CD ll and releases it with Slash and Duff as a Guns album, that means it's still alive. Still could shape the next potential Guns album musically.

[DieselDaisy]

12 minutes ago, Rovim said:

He's also playing some Chinese tunes with Slash and Duff. And we don't know what Axl's plans for CD ll are, or the material in the vault. Slash reworked the Better intro live so maybe he can rework some of the material in the studio to make it more Guns.

Band members left. Axl could have not predicted what will happen with Duff and then Slash. It seems looking back now, that he didn't pull the trigger on CD ll with Bumble and DJ in the band, he didn't include them like Paul, Robin, Bucket, and even Fortus.

New Guns is more than just 1 line up obviously, Axl basically had the studio line up and then the live line up that only played the material live for years, but Slash is playing This I Love live, and 3 other tunes from Chinese. That's not a failure imo. On the contrary, it could mean the CD ll material is something Slash will be willing to work with.

If Axl actually wants to do something with this line up, I'm guessing an album of unreleased Axl tunes will come in handy. If Axl uses some material from CD ll and releases it with Slash and Duff as a Guns album, that means it's still alive. Still could shape the next potential Guns album musically.

A face saving exercise, surely - the vast majority of the audiences will not want to hear those songs.

The ultimate proof that Nugnr failed is that, by reuniting with Slash and Duff, he automatically jumped from casinos into stadiums.

Edited May 24, 2016 by DieselDaisy

[Rovim]

27 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

A face saving exercise, surely - the vast majority of the audiences will not want to hear those songs.

The ultimate proof that Nugnr failed is that, by reuniting with Slash and Duff, he automatically jumped from casinos into stadiums.

It never really gained acceptance. It failed in the sense that the Slash-less line ups were always in the shadow of the classic line up.

Perhaps he never had a chance to do that cause Slash is such a big part of the sound and image, or maybe if he would have released an album every 3 or 4 years, starting in 1999 it might have been more successful, but it's only a failure if you compare it to old Guns and if you don't really take into account Axl's limited options without Izzy, Slash, and Duff.

I'd say all in all he did it his way and did not give up until the album was completed and released while still remaining rich. From the ruins of the old band he at least made something that worked for years if you think about it.

But it did not sell 10 million copies and the stadium thing is something they can kinda only do together. Axl still performed to a relatively big audiences with new Guns, album made a profit through the Best Buy deal, and it was artistically what he wanted to create.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

When are you and wasted going to give up the ghost of cd2?

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

If Nugnr were not a failure, then why is he playing the hits with Slash and Duff in the summer, and why is CD2 seemingly dead and buried?

Why he is playing with Slash and Duff? Money, I suppose. Doesn't mean CD was a failure.

Why CD2 is dead and buried? Who knows? Maybe he lost the will to release new music? Maybe it doesn't fit with his plans of truly embracing the nostalgia act? Again, it doesn't mean CD was a failure.

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Why he is playing with Slash and Duff? Money, I suppose. Doesn't mean CD was a failure.

Why CD2 is dead and buried? Who knows? Maybe he lost the will to release new music? Maybe it doesn't fit with his plans of truly embracing the nostalgia act? Again, it doesn't mean CD was a failure.

It went straight into the bargain basket!! If that does not symbolise an album failing, I do not know what will?

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It went straight into the bargain basket!! If that does not symbolise an album failing, I do not know what will?

I am not saying it wasn't a failure, I am saying that your arguments for why it must have been a failure are flawed.

[It definitely failed its expectations sales-wise. But it did sell 4-5 million copies world-wide, which is still good in these times. Then we can talk about all the other ways we can rate a record beyond just thinking about the economics...]

[Aussiegun]

HIT SINGLE (lack of)

Edited May 24, 2016 by Aussiegun

[Tom2112]

The thing that went wrong was that they didn't release enough music. They were always going to be up against it without Slash and co. But, had they bust out 3 or 4 good records? and toured a bit more on the merit of those songs (while still playing most of the hits and a few deep cuts) I think people would have been less dismissive of them. One album, is what went wrong. 

There's other things like, never doing any proper interviews, band photos, videos... all the stuff that helps people get to know a completely new band. Then of course there's also the continuation form the UYI tour of Axl going on late, even if all the other things I mentioned had happened would still have sank the nuGnr.

NuGnr would still be ticking over if Axl had pulled the trigger and let the band (2009-2014) try and write a new record. For whatever reason he didn't want to make a record with them, even though he was happy with the band...? I think they could have made a great album, they were tight and they all wanted to do it / prove themselves. 'tis a shame!

We'll just have to wait and see if Axl has any interest in doing anything with his latest GnR... beyond touring.

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

NuGnr would still be ticking over if Axl had pulled the trigger and let the band (2009-2014) try and write a new record. For whatever reason he didn't want to make a record with them, even though he was happy with the band...? I think they could have made a great album, they were tight and they all wanted to do it / prove themselves. 'tis a shame!

It's one of the wierd things about, Axl, right? These idiosyncracities about whom he will work with and how everything should be. He refused to work with Gilby, too. I guess he has a very restricted idea of what he wants to do, which also changes frequently. If it isn't absolutely 100 % perfect then he won't bother to do it at all. Really unfortunate for all the fans of Axl and GN'R, but that is how he is.

[Tom2112]

39 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It went straight into the bargain basket!! If that does not symbolise an album failing, I do not know what will?

That happened 2 or more years after it's release. At which point it had already sold 2-4 million worldwide. 2-4 million in 2008 is exceptional (with no promo or tour support), it would be amazing in 2016! It didn't even fail critically, mixed reviews certainly, but it got just as many 4/5 reviews as it did 1 to 2 out of 5 reviews.

[blackrose87]

Off the top of my head

 

• Constant chopping and changing of musicians.
• No promotion of band members. Interviews etc. Very little promotion of the band itself
• 1 album over a 15 year period.
• Axl phoning it in for every tour. No rehearsing and his performances suffering.
• Absolute silence for periods of years on end.