What went wrong with NUGNR?

[Rovim]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

I am not saying it wasn't a failure, I am saying that your arguments for why it must have been a failure are flawed.

[It definitely failed its expectations sales-wise. But it did sell 4-5 million copies world-wide, which is still good in these times. Then we can talk about all the other ways we can rate a record beyond just thinking about the economics...]

CD did not sell 4 to 5 million copies. We've been through this. And you don't know it was just about the money. Why not reunite 15 years ago? 10? why continue with DJ Ashba for 6 years when you can pack stadiums with Slash? no. I believe if Axl didn't forgive Slash, all the money in the world wouldn't have been enough to convince him to reunite. We also don't know what Axl is gonna do with all the material in the vault, including CD ll, an album full of tunes no one has even heard yet (at least us)

It sold about 3 million I think. Without Axl promotion for a year cause he was upset cause someone thought he was reunitin'.

The failure was Axl did not succeed in establishing any of the new Guns line ups as a true continuation of Gn'R, and the album was delayed for too long and did not have a hit and was perhaps too different to many Guns fans to accept or even like.

But how can you call what Axl did a failure, when he delivered an album that he was satisfied with artistically, while not really compromising on much? People still went to see new Guns. Now Slash and Duff have compromised.

If anything the biggest failure for an artist is to make shit music. Chinese was a record that was done out of love for music and artistic integrity containing songs Slash and Duff have no real issues with it seems.

 

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

51 minutes ago, Tom2112 said:

That happened 2 or more years after it's release. At which point it had already sold 2-4 million worldwide. 2-4 million in 2008 is exceptional (with no promo or tour support), it would be amazing in 2016! It didn't even fail critically, mixed reviews certainly, but it got just as many 4/5 reviews as it did 1 to 2 out of 5 reviews.

I wouldn't go that far. Black Ice's success was exceptional.

[The Archer]

13 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I wouldn't go that far. Black Ice's success was exceptional.

Black Ice also came out of the AC/DC business, marketing and Rock N' Roll machine. I love Acca/Dacca but I really don't care all that much for Black Ice. CD IMO was way better than Black Ice.

[wasted]

CD was one the best selling rock records of 2008. 

1 hour ago, blackrose87 said:

Off the top of my head

 

• Constant chopping and changing of musicians.
• No promotion of band members. Interviews etc. Very little promotion of the band itself
• 1 album over a 15 year period.
• Axl phoning it in for every tour. No rehearsing and his performances suffering.
• Absolute silence for periods of years on end.

 

Sounds kind of like now doesn't it. It's always been like this. 

[SoulMonster]

25 minutes ago, Rovim said:

CD did not sell 4 to 5 million copies. We've been through this.

I see no reason to not believe it did. I've been through this numerous times with different people and all they can present to argue against it is invalid numbers about how much had been shipped by the end of 2009 and their own ingrained reluctance to allow CD to be more economically successful than they would want it to have been.

But let's not take that discussion here. If you think 4-5 millions are wrong then why not argue against it in this thread:

 

30 minutes ago, Rovim said:

It sold about 3 million I think.

Exactly Therein lies the problem.

[Rovim]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I see no reason to not believe it did. I've been through this numerous times with different people and all they can present to argue against it is invalid numbers about how much had been shipped by the end of 2009 and their own ingrained reluctance to allow CD to be more economically successful than they would want it to have been.

But let's not take that discussion here. If you think 4-5 millions are wrong then why not argue against it in this thread:

 

Rusty proved to you it did not sell 4 to 5 million copies. I remember it vividly, and to be honest I don't want to discuss it, but what you are saying is wrong. You couldn't prove it then, and you can't prove it now cause it never happened.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Rovim

[wasted]

Everything went fine. Axl just does 1 album per era/decade and it wasn't the 90s. We might not like the 90s flavour of CD but there it is. Maybe Hybrid Guns can make great self titled or modern rock record or maybe they will just tour.  CD was end times for GNR. 

[SoulMonster]

12 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Rusty proved to you it did not sell 4 to 5 million copies.

He did?? I never saw that.

[Rovim]

4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

He did?? I never saw that.

Is that so? so can you prove it sold 4 million copies? take your time. Proof, not saying it probably have sold an extra 2 million copies in 2015.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Rovim

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Rovim said:

Yeah? so can you prove it sold 4 million copies? take your time. Proof, not saying it probably have sold an extra 2 million copies in 2015.

I have never said I can prove it I have tried, using the best data we have, to estimate the global sales as of 2015, and ended up with the range 4-6 millions. It is MUCH better than use numbers for shipped and sales by 2009, at least, or just whatever you "think" and "feel". But again, why not take this to the right thread?

[Rovim]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

I have never said I can prove it I have tried, using the best data we have, to estimate the global sales as of 2015, and ended up with the range 4-6 millions. It is MUCH better than use numbers for shipped and sales by 2009, at least, or just whatever you "think" and "feel". But again, why not take this to the right thread?

What for? you'll be just as incorrect in the right thread. You're trying to pass it off like Chinese sold 4 million copies when you can't support it with any proof. Frankly, this is a joke to me and a waste of time. I won't be told Chinese sold 4 million copies. It doesn't need someone to validate it in any way cause it sold enough. 3 million copies is respectable, even if it is a failure in Gn'R 90's standards.

[DR DOOM]

This topic is a barrel shoot.

I don't want to shitcan our man Axl now that he is back with Slash and Duff and putting on great shows again.

[SoulMonster]

10 minutes ago, Rovim said:

What for? you'll be just as incorrect in the right thread. You're trying to pass it off like Chinese sold 4 million copies when you can't support it with any proof. Frankly, this is a joke to me and a waste of time. I won't be told Chinese sold 4 million copies. It doesn't need someone to validate it in any way cause it sold enough. 3 million copies is respectable, even if it is a failure in Gn'R 90's standards.

Three millions is respectable but there is no reason to assume CD sold 3 millions That number is just based on numbers for 2009. This is the backfire effect, I am afraid. You can't simply change peoples' strong opinion on a matter when they have become deeply ingrained and prestige is rampant, if all you have is statistics and probability. People need hard proof! Proof I say! Even if they have zero proof for their base assumption of 3 million :D. I get it. I totally do. People will prefer to hold on to whatever opinion them have, no matter how weakly substantiated it might be, than to accept they were wrong, especially after having been so vocal and abrasive about it. Human nature and all that.

Edited May 24, 2016 by SoulMonster
typo

[Rovim]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

3 millions is respectable but there is no reason to assume CD sold 3 millions That number is just based on numbers for 2009. This is the backfire effect, I am afraid. You can't simply change peoples' strong opinion on a matter when they have become deeply ingrained and prestige is rampant, if all you have is statistics and probability. People need hard proof! Proof I say! Even if they have zero proof for their base assumption of 3 million :D. I get it. I totally do. People will prefer to hold on to whatever opinion them have, no matter how weakly substantiated it might be, than to accept they were wrong, especially after having been so vocal and abrasive about it. Human nature and all that.

What are you talking about? seriously? it didn't even reach that number being sold on dollar tree. How else are we supposed to know it sold 4 to 5 million copies like you said it did, if you can't prove it, or anyone else for that matter, cause again: it never happened in reality?

Just because you want to think it maybe sold more since 2009, and not just more but 1 to 2 million copies more, that doesn't make it any less impossible to seriously accept without proof. Especially when we know the demand for it when it was just released came and went and it sold about 3 million copies. (like Bumble said it did)

I don't want to derail this thread but please stop pulling shit from your ass and present it like some sort of a fact. It's misleading.

 

Edited May 24, 2016 by Rovim

[DR DOOM]

Oh fucking hell, how many bajillion copies did Chinese Democracy sell this week Soul?

That horse has been dead for like 8 years now mate, it flopped.

Deal with it.

[RussTCB]

2 hours ago, blackrose87 said:

Off the top of my head

 

• Constant chopping and changing of musicians.
• No promotion of band members. Interviews etc. Very little promotion of the band itself
• 1 album over a 15 year period.
• Axl phoning it in for every tour. No rehearsing and his performances suffering.
• Absolute silence for periods of years on end.

 

All of these things.

The only thing I ever found odd was how they almost started to promote band members in 2002. I was surprised to see Bucket & Robin t-shirts for sale, but thought it was pretty cool. Then by the time they got back in the public eye again 4 years later, there was no mention of who was in the band outside of Axl doing the standard intros each night. 

[Tom2112]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

I wouldn't go that far. Black Ice's success was exceptional.

But they toured heavily behind it and did a promo tour. GnR did nothing a shifted 4 million? copies. Black Ice sold 6 million? What I was calling exceptional was the lack of promo and the time in which is was released: and still getting relatively high record sales. Calling the sales exceptional is a bit of a stretch though, I agree! but they aren't poor by any means!

 

[Tom2112]

I'm not sure about anything But, I don't think Chinese sold 5-6million copies, maybe it did? It has definitely sold a few more copies since the 2009 stats were released, but I don't think we're talking 2-3 million more copies. I think it's fair to say 3-4 million... unless there's facts to suggest otherwise, not just opinion... unless that's the opinion of Axl, the label or band management.

[action]

much to my surprise, Chinese democracy has reportedly sold more copies than metallica's death magnetic which, despite initial strong sales, only sold a good 2 million copies (source: http://www.statisticbrain.com/metallica-album-sales-statistics/), making it their worst selling album ever.

suddenly, CD's 4 million number seems not so lackluster anymore.

But sales figures are massively important are they? it only show what the majority buys. If we're going to measure quality to sales numbers, I don't know where the argument will take us with the likes of "one direction" et al.

let's just all agree that CD was shit if you loved appetite for destruction. I've about as much interest in the album as I would in the new Muse album: I don't like the style no matter which band's name is on the cover

[Zint]

After the first nuGnR gig I saw in 02, every-single-person I knew asked the same question "what's with the fuckin chicken bucket".

The comments grew less kind as the years went by.

I saw interest in nuGnR reach the low point where they played a half full bar in Toronto...and even there it seemed most people were tired of hearing these guys play 2 hours of classic GnR with a couple of old-new songs tossed in.

Momentum fizzled..I think most everyone got bored, from the fans down to Axl.

 

[ZoSoRose]

28 minutes ago, Zint said:

After the first nuGnR gig I saw in 02, every-single-person I knew asked the same question "what's with the fuckin chicken bucket".

The comments grew less kind as the years went by.

I saw interest in nuGnR reach the low point where they played a half full bar in Toronto...and even there it seemed most people were tired of hearing these guys play 2 hours of classic GnR with a couple of old-new songs tossed in.

Momentum fizzled..I think most everyone got bored, from the fans down to Axl.

 

What was the bar in toronto, zint?!

[Iron MikeyJ]

I don't think NUgnr could EVER have achieved anything close to the success real gnr did, but having said that, it could have done ok.

The biggest failer was not releasing that album by 2002 or 2003 at the latest. There was general interest then, and a TON of interest in 98, 99, 00. The failed 2002 tour also really hurt things. Everything after 2002 was doomed to fail IMO, it was just too late at that point. Even though the album itself was good, it wasn't good enough to excuse the amount of time and money it took to make. By the time it actually came it was like everyone was saying "finally", instead of "oh my God this great." By 2008 Everything in music had changed. But back in 2002, the music industry was still strong enough that NUgnr could have been a solid investment, but not in 2008 and on.

Let me clarify by saying NUgnr would never have sold 7, 10, or more millions of albums. But they could have easily sold 5 or so consistently from 98-03, which is respectable. I'm talking legitimatly, not these inflated numbers we read on here all the time. But the record company (and I do blame them for this, not axl) wanted CD to sell 10 or 20 million, not 5. Which that really is part of the reason that album took so long. But NUgnr could NEVER have done that, no freaking way. Real GNR would have struggled to do that even if they never broke up. Unrealistic expectations and TIME killed that band more than anything else imo.

[Sprite]

Wild expectations. That's the short answer for me.

I think what was true 10-15 years ago is ringing true today and that is fans want nostalgia. A lot aren't interested in new or different. Let's get Adler back and spin Appetite another 10,000 times type thing. Beat 'em like a cheap mule. Musicians are a commodity don't you know? This has been beaten to death but had Axl done this all as a solo career he might have reaped this 2016 positivity much earlier in his career.

The big issue people I knew and from my experience seemed to have had was that it was sans Slash mostly. A few rogue ones would say Slash & "___" need to be there. The mavericks of the GNR world claim it's not GNR without Steven. That only proves pleasing everyone is impossible.

I think Nugnr were not as abysmal as many on here seem to think. The premise of the question is coming from the perspective as if they should have done something different, but their resume isn't all bad. If they were a productive band that released more albums, there would likely be more complaints here about the additional shitty music. Be happy with what is I guess.

If you think they went from about 2000-2014. Toured all over the world in front of millions of people. Released the most critic-anticipated (I say this because it was and still is but becoming less of, the album people love to hate) album. Rolling Stone called Better the 34th best song of 2008. They performed on national TV a few times. Did a late night appearance. Did a couple residencies. Released a professional concert DVD. Magazine interviews. TV interviews. If you look at the resume objectively and not "where's slash" than it's not bad. I think they also might have been one of the most criticized bands of this century. You don't pick on poor people if you know what im sayin'. They had success for sure. 

I think it wasn't what went wrong with them on why it ended. I think it was more the time was right for you know who to come back and Tommy to leave for his reasons. But this current band is just as much "nu" as "old". So from that perspective it's still going strong and that band I asked you to look objectively at is touring stadiums this summer. Not possible without Slash I know.

The way I see it Axl assembled a group of incredibly talented musicians and put out a killer record and a lot of good memories for me. I blast If the world while running or catcher in the rye while winding down. Its helped me as a person. Sub bass surrounds my life. Pitman's bass solo in If the World is the stuff of legends. I could give a fuck about record sales. Shania Twain sold more than Appetite and released it 10 years after. That pretty much says all you need to know about record sales. I'm interested in quality. Or is the discussion why does the lowest quality material usually sell the best? I'm sitting here thinking Mc Hammer has more songs but he's playing can't touch this for the third time tonight. Jimmy was a stimulator though.

Edited May 24, 2016 by Sprite

[sonofnazareth]

They couldn't roll.

[Lies They Tell]

2 hours ago, action said:

let's just all agree that CD was shit if you loved appetite for destruction. I've about as much interest in the album as I would in the new Muse album: I don't like the style no matter which band's name is on the cover

Lol, no. Just because I love Appetite For Destruction, doesn't mean that I have a narrow taste in music.