What went wrong with NUGNR?

[BOSSY78]

On Monday, May 23, 2016 at 11:06 AM, Apollo said:

* lack of musical output from a new band. How can a band stand on their own without their own music 

* too many lineup changes 

* Axl refusing to promote his new lineups or one album

* die hard fans were pissed about breakup and Axl keeping the name. Instead of overwhelming those fans - Axl underwhelmed them by not showing up to tours in shape, very little interaction with media, disappearing for years at a time, Yoda, team Brazil, and again - one album in twenty years. 

* bossy78 Lol. You keep saying you are trying to present an unbiased look at what happened. You are horrible at subtly. 99% or what you've posted is just defending Axl and blaming others for his failures over the past 25 years. I hate to pop your bubble, but Everybody involved in the original band - yes, Tracii and Ole so NOT count - was to blame. But Axl was to blame the most. Bro, you can still be a diehard Axl fan and still admit he made mistakes. And while Axl might think the entire world is out to get him - you, as a fan, should be smarter than that. 

You must have missed the post where I said I personally think the blame lies on all of them. I just get tired of the blame falling on just him was my point..

Hence my sure Axl is a diva and an a**hole but the blame lies with them all in my opinion..

I also in the same post said NuGnR lied with him and circumstances around him.

I'm well aware the world isn't out to get him but I'm also aware of how the breakup of the classic lineup split the fans up. Being realistic we do know that without even knowing facts and only going by what books or an ex member or someone who had bad dealings with Axl many as fans have decided Axl is to blame for it all.

I on the other hand am realistic and like I said blame them all.

Prime example no matter how many times fans hear Axl say he never forced anyone to sign over the name or refused to go on and even explained what that would mean legally 30 seconds later many of those people will dismiss that and say he held an audience captive basically. It's pretty easy to research and know in at least that he told the truth.

But a guy writes a book and says differently and it must be true.

Again I think they all had issues. GnR was on a downward spiral and yes Axl was a part of that. He was smart and secured the name. A name he came into this version of the band with.

Hope that clarifies a bit. Wasn't sure what post you went off of but you can read it this  page above.

I also agree with most of your points. I forgot all about yoda. Thanks for the reminder. That was something for sure.

Edited May 26, 2016 by BOSSY78
added

[BOSSY78]

9 hours ago, wasted said:

The whole idea that Bucket is dominating CD needs to be looked at. 

The way I see it his songs are Shackler's, Scraped, Sorry as far as I can make out. 

He does a great solo on ITW and I think Twat. Axl wrote the riff on Twat I believe. 

I think the main problem for metal fans is that CD doesn't have that powerful feeling you get from a guitarist taking the reigns of the album and really giving it an assued feeling. 

Finck's songs have been more successful?

Chi dem - okay Freese wrote the riff but Robin plays it. 

Better - Finck/Fortus

This I Love - Finck rocks the solo. 

SOD - Finck has writing credits. He also plays solo on Twat like Bucket. 

So the role of the guitarists isn't really central to CD. It's very percussive. It's a drum and vocals album. There's great guitar work but it's not guitar driven to me. 

I agree. I never thought the day would come when I'd ever say I preferred another guitarist over Slash but in TIL I love Fincks version more. Slash is still tinkering with it and I'm sure however he does it will sound good. But Fincks did beautiful there. 

Edited May 26, 2016 by BOSSY78
autocorrect sucks

[ZoSoRose]

10 minutes ago, BOSSY78 said:

I agree. I never thought the day would come when I'd ever say I preferred another guitarist over Slash but in TIL I love Fincks version more. Slash is still tinkering with it and I'm sure however he does it will sound good. But Fincks did beautiful there. 

Slash's vegas 1 TiL solo is my favorite version of the song ever. He's been tinkering with it since and some versions haven't been stellar. He will get it down though

For me it's the Slash 4/8 solo, Finck studio version, other Slash versions, DJ versions

Edited May 26, 2016 by ZoSoRose

[ZoSoRose]

9 hours ago, wasted said:

The whole idea that Bucket is dominating CD needs to be looked at. 

The way I see it his songs are Shackler's, Scraped, Sorry as far as I can make out. 

He does a great solo on ITW and I think Twat. Axl wrote the riff on Twat I believe. 

I think the main problem for metal fans is that CD doesn't have that powerful feeling you get from a guitarist taking the reigns of the album and really giving it an assued feeling. 

Finck's songs have been more successful?

Chi dem - okay Freese wrote the riff but Robin plays it. 

Better - Finck/Fortus

This I Love - Finck rocks the solo. 

SOD - Finck has writing credits. He also plays solo on Twat like Bucket. 

So the role of the guitarists isn't really central to CD. It's very percussive. It's a drum and vocals album. There's great guitar work but it's not guitar driven to me. 

I actually love the guitars and always think of CD as a vocal and guitar album. Not in a traditional riff sorta way, but they're still dominte. No single guitarist is over the other on it though, it's kind of a Robin, Bucket, Ron shared experience. Just a different style of album I guess, they're more layered

[BOSSY78]

17 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

I actually love the guitars and always think of CD as a vocal and guitar album. Not in a traditional riff sorta way, but they're still dominte. No single guitarist is over the other on it though, it's kind of a Robin, Bucket, Ron shared experience. Just a different style of album I guess, they're more layered

This. A lot of layering. I remember trying to figure out who was on what but at the end of the day it didn't matter. I enjoyed CD.

[BOSSY78]

21 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

Slash's vegas 1 TiL solo is my favorite version of the song ever. He's been tinkering with it since and some versions haven't been stellar. He will get it down though

For me it's the Slash 4/8 solo, Finck studio version, other Slash versions, DJ versions

I will have to go back and give that one a listen. That's what's so great about Slash the man is a beast on guitar.

I also suspect with them rehearsing we are in for some surprises on songs from CD.

I wish Axl did piano live for TIL too. 

 

[wasted]

21 minutes ago, ZoSoRose said:

I actually love the guitars and always think of CD as a vocal and guitar album. Not in a traditional riff sorta way, but they're still dominte. No single guitarist is over the other on it though, it's kind of a Robin, Bucket, Ron shared experience. Just a different style of album I guess, they're more layered

That's what I'm saying, it's not like Slash solo or AFD or even UYI where the guitar is front and centre. It lacks clear riffing and the consistency of the one guitarist, so to me the drums and vocals anchor it down. 

[Gackt]

ChiDem is a bit of a frankenstein monster of an album, because you've got up to six different guitarists on some tracks (TWAT has Axl, Bucket, Bumble, Finck, Tobias & Fortus), drummers alongside programmed drums, decades-old demos of some tracks..

If the album came out in 2001 or 2 with that line-up focused on the direction the band was headed at the time, it'd likely have been much better received.  By the time that band got to their second or third album, there'd be no comparison.

[ToonGuns]

On ‎26‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 4:30 AM, RONIN said:

Apparently the Sean Beavan version of Chinese Democracy was full of industrial songs like OMG. That's the "2000 intentions" album that was supposed to come out in '99 or 2000. That's when Interscope brought in Queen's producer to rework everything. It's too bad -- I wish Axl had a chance to make his industrial album. I don't think Chinese Democracy turned out the way he wanted it to -- the 2008 release was probably very different than what he originally envisioned.

At some stage in the future they should release the 2000 Intentions album. Would be a very interesting "rarities" kind of release.

[wasted]

I think in 1999 the stuff like Chi dem, Riad, Silkworms, Oh My God probably sounded awesome. But from what Zutaut said the label didn't hear a hit single in The Blues or Madagascar. 

People say they like The Blues more but I think there was this idea to make these songs grander, more like Nov Rain. I doubt the label is sitting there going yes Chi dem is a hit, it's more how can we get 5 Nov Rains from Axl. That's the only reason to spend 10 million dollars re-recording 2000 Intentions. That's what RTB was for I guess. But then Ezrin says he hates it. Well producers of all people will say that. Kiss and Queen just aren't the same. 

But what they got to by 2008 is the whole thing sounds awesome. Given the difference between Riad and This I Love it still kind of fits. And there's a lot of similar combos. Shackler's and SOD. The initial The Blues sounds too illusions it can't sit next to If the World. 

 

[DR DOOM]

Axl.

[wasted]

But in the end nothing is wrong. GNR released a record in the 00s. They only released 2 in the 90s so maybe 1 is alright all things considered.

Touring is touring, maybe Axl could have been inphenomenal shape all the time. 

Maybe the actual release was a little messy and the line up that mostly made CD wasn't around to tour on release, that's not great in my opinion. 

Most of this is nit picking. You basically get an album and see some shows. 

 

Edited May 27, 2016 by wasted
Probably

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, wasted said:

You basically get a great album

'Great album' - did I miss something?

[wasted]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

'Great album' - did I miss something?

I think I can fix this in the mix. 

[HeartbreakerWoman]

It was kinda doomed from the start. Axl had this idea of playing Build A Band where he'd take these people who were really different musically and otherwise, throw them in a blender together regardless of whether or not their personalities meshed or their playing styles produced any chemistry, and put them in a band together. Then, he had them on a tight leash, producing instrumentals which he would micromanage, slice, dice and chop up or overdub at will, while telling them to play within a certain limit (to make it sound like, what was to him, "Guns N' Roses"). It must've been a very creatively stifling process for all involved; I can't imagine Buckethead or Bumblefoot for example even LIKED most of the material they were playing. And, who knows how much of each part of every song isn't a cut and paste job from various sessions lasting over a decade?

This wasn't like Axl forming a new band with a bunch of guys who were all on the same page and wanted the same general thing - it was just stitching together a sorta Frankenstein band from these utterly different people and hoping for the best.

[wasted]

5 hours ago, HeartbreakerWoman said:

It was kinda doomed from the start. Axl had this idea of playing Build A Band where he'd take these people who were really different musically and otherwise, throw them in a blender together regardless of whether or not their personalities meshed or their playing styles produced any chemistry, and put them in a band together. Then, he had them on a tight leash, producing instrumentals which he would micromanage, slice, dice and chop up or overdub at will, while telling them to play within a certain limit (to make it sound like, what was to him, "Guns N' Roses"). It must've been a very creatively stifling process for all involved; I can't imagine Buckethead or Bumblefoot for example even LIKED most of the material they were playing. And, who knows how much of each part of every song isn't a cut and paste job from various sessions lasting over a decade?

This wasn't like Axl forming a new band with a bunch of guys who were all on the same page and wanted the same general thing - it was just stitching together a sorta Frankenstein band from these utterly different people and hoping for the best.

I felt like it was the same as original GNR. A punk bassist, then a Keef and noodler - one write, one play. 

Same dynamics in nu Guns, but yes a little more cynical in a way. Less spirit to it. The rise of the machines. 

The whole copy n paste isn't new, NIN were doing it. And this idea of Queen but with all the possibilities of NIN production. It pays off too. Where SOD is on one hand this Elton barroom crooner but on the other has alien technology solos. I'm not sure it's a mainstream listening experience though. It's like what is this for? It's too intense to booze to and almost too technical to rock to. It's not radio gold like Elton. But it is like the final word on layered perfection. CD is grand wizardry. 

[DieselDaisy]

4 hours ago, wasted said:

I felt like it was the same as original GNR. A punk bassist, then a Keef and noodler - one write, one play. 

Same dynamics in nu Guns, but yes a little more cynical in a way. Less spirit to it. The rise of the machines. 

The whole copy n paste isn't new, NIN were doing it. And this idea of Queen but with all the possibilities of NIN production. It pays off too. Where SOD is on one hand this Elton barroom crooner but on the other has alien technology solos. I'm not sure it's a mainstream listening experience though. It's like what is this for? It's too intense to booze to and almost too technical to rock to. It's not radio gold like Elton. But it is like the final word on layered perfection. CD is grand wizardry. 

Tsingtao talking? Tsingtao goggles?

[Philipm787]

On 26 May 2016 at 0:40 PM, wasted said:

Overall the CD era was fine. Axl put out the record he wanted. It sold pretty well. They toured. CD is just another GNR album. 

That's not true. The CD era was s total catastrophe, and thankfully Axl realised this and brought back real GNR members, who are just as important to guns as he ever was/will be. The only thing positive about the whole CD era was the realise the songs Sorry, TWAT and Better and some rare stellar performances from Axl. Stop lying to yourself mate.

[Philipm787]

22 hours ago, wasted said:

But in the end nothing is wrong. GNR released a record in the 00s. They only released 2 in the 90s so maybe 1 is alright all things considered.

Touring is touring, maybe Axl could have been inphenomenal shape all the time. 

Maybe the actual release was a little messy and the line up that mostly made CD wasn't around to tour on release, that's not great in my opinion. 

Most of this is nit picking. You basically get an album and see some shows. 

 

Putting the blinders on. 17 year wait for an album is just not acceptable. Axl rarely sung Guns N' Roses songs well during the CD era.

[wasted]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Tsingtao talking? Tsingtao goggles?

I thought that was quite lucid. 

[Philipm787]

23 hours ago, DR DOOM said:

Axl.

Yes. Some people on here think Axl has some kind of special powers. Some kind of divine musicality. Not true at all. He's a great rock n' roll singer/frontman on his day, a good songwriter and a decent pianist. All the bullshit that was built up around him in the 90's led him and his fans to believe he was some kind of divine musician. Not true at all, the majority of those musicians are dead. Except for Neil Young. Thankfully the majority of GNR fans are not blind-to-reality fanboys like on here. Can you just imagine.

[wasted]

8 minutes ago, Philipm787 said:

That's not true. The CD era was s total catastrophe, and thankfully Axl realised this and brought back real GNR members, who are just as important to guns as he ever was/will be. The only thing positive about the whole CD era was the realise the songs Sorry, TWAT and Better and some rare stellar performances from Axl. Stop lying to yourself mate.

My opinion is lying to myself. I like it. Did you steal that from me?!

I don't see how releasing an album and touring is a catastrophe?

Even if you didn't like it, what's the difference? 

 

 

[Philipm787]

6 minutes ago, wasted said:

My opinion is lying to myself. I like it. Did you steal that from me?!

I don't see how releasing an album and touring is a catastrophe?

Even if you didn't like it, what's the difference? 

 

 

You're lying to yourself by believing the CD era was some sort of success. Releasing an album?? Good one. More like delaying the release for years and giving out false release dates. Touring? More like cancelling half the gigs, or whole tours. Then when redhead did show up, for the majority, he gave half assed performances.

[wasted]

33 minutes ago, Philipm787 said:

Putting the blinders on. 17 year wait for an album is just not acceptable. Axl rarely sung Guns N' Roses songs well during the CD era.

 I waited 20 years for Faith No More to get back together and not once had a problem. That's how long it took. 

I saw two nu Guns shows, Not once did I think Axl's vocals are bad. This was 2002 and 09 though. There were some vids online that weren't great. Axl is human. Tell a friend. 

What about all the walk off shows in UYI era. There's always negatives to find if you want. 

It's just not as black and white as you want it to be, nothing is. 

Was CD the creative and commercial peak of GNR? No, obviously not. 

Was the CD era the least succesful era of GNR? Yes of course. 

Was CD a complete catastrophe? No, it was fine. 

[Stro]

I don't think anything went wrong with the NUGNR era. Some of the best shows and performances in the band's history came from the "NUGNR" era. I don't think it was ever going to last forever or outshine the Axl/Slash version of the band. The specter of the reunion was hanging over GNR since their first performance without Slash, and it never left, no matter how great the shows were without him. Same goes for everything Slash has done without Axl.

A lot of bands had great songs/performances without key members of the band. GNR is no different. Unless you were a hardcore, GNR didn't matter at all between 1994 and 2016. That's just how it is. I'm sure you'll find a significant chunk of Van Halen fans that feel the same about that band between 1986 and 2009. It is what it is.

CD holds its own against both individual UYI, TSI, and Lies. And a lot of of the touring over the past 15 years has led to wonderful performances of new and old songs. But without Slash, a lot of people just didn't give a shit. That's not anything against the CD material or performers. That's just how it is. I don't think anything was "wrong" with the period. It's similar to the Aerosmith tour without Steve Perry (except it last 15 years). 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2016 by Stro