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What went wrong with NUGNR?


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6 hours ago, Philipm787 said:

You're lying to yourself by believing the CD era was some sort of success. Releasing an album?? Good one. More like delaying the release for years and giving out false release dates. Touring? More like cancelling half the gigs, or whole tours. Then when redhead did show up, for the majority, he gave half assed performances.

I don't how you got I thought it was successful from this:

"Overall the CD era was fine. Axl put out the record he wanted. It sold pretty well. They toured. CD is just another GNR album. "

I mean it sold okay for 2008. But Black Ice sold 10 mil or something. But it's a record Axl wanted to put out. 

I think the stuff your saying about Axl's performanes is wrong. He just got old and didn't become a fitness freak. 

Also, we don't really know it was all Axl. In fact the label suggested at least 2 delays out of the 3 big ones. 

It got crazy but in the end if it comes out in 2004 or 2008 I'm not sure it matters within the context of this band. Looking back on it now from a different era, 1 album seems about right. It was respectful. 

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7 hours ago, wasted said:

 I waited 20 years for Faith No More to get back together and not once had a problem

This is cause all these years you were snorting shit and spreading HIV. 

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16 hours ago, wasted said:

I don't how you got I thought it was successful from this:

"Overall the CD era was fine. Axl put out the record he wanted. It sold pretty well. They toured. CD is just another GNR album. "

I mean it sold okay for 2008. But Black Ice sold 10 mil or something. But it's a record Axl wanted to put out. 

I think the stuff your saying about Axl's performanes is wrong. He just got old and didn't become a fitness freak. 

Also, we don't really know it was all Axl. In fact the label suggested at least 2 delays out of the 3 big ones. 

It got crazy but in the end if it comes out in 2004 or 2008 I'm not sure it matters within the context of this band. Looking back on it now from a different era, 1 album seems about right. It was respectful. 

You have a reputation around here, wasted, so I will not waste my time arguing with you.

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5 hours ago, Mr. Dude said:

I agree with him. I don't see how Axl could have played it any better.

Five albums that each kicked ass. Music videos. Tv performances and interviews. Showing up for tours in shape. A couple of major magazine interviews. Non-revolving door of band members. 

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That is one of the things I hate most on this board, the implication that because my favourite shows were in 2006 and 2010, and because the line-up which performed those shows is my favourite in the band's history, I am apparently some sort of musical retard.

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12 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

What does ''Axl'' putting ''out the record he wanted'' supposed to mean? Do we assume that most acts put out albums they do not want?

Of course they just addicted to the money and limelight. They work hard, they deserve it. Axl seemed to be trying to do something special. Otherwise he would do Snakepit or a reunion way earlier. Maybe it's pride or ego but it's not just for the cash money and hos. Maybe when he feeling light but not as a plan. 

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Just now, wasted said:

Of course they just addicted to the money and limelight. They work hard, they deserve it. Axl seemed to be trying to do something special. Otherwise he would do Snakepit or a reunion way earlier. Maybe it's pride or ego but it's not just for the cash money and hos. Maybe when he feeling light but not as a plan. 

I do not follow. There are multiple reasons why artists put out albums other than ''money and limelight'' or ''cash money and hos'', and there is nothing particular that makes Chinese Democracy more 'special' than any other album, sans its comically troubled gestation.  

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13 hours ago, Apollo said:

Five albums that each kicked ass. Music videos. Tv performances and interviews. Showing up for tours in shape. A couple of major magazine interviews. Non-revolving door of band members. 

5 albums is delusional and the rest is subjective/no one cares?

i understand CD, I see why etc but I don't get why Axl, Slash, Izzy wanted to go their seperate ways. But thats where I'd focus, not on Axl trying to struggle on and find a way to save his career. 

 

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27 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I do not follow. There are multiple reasons why artists put out albums other than ''money and limelight'' or ''cash money and hos'', and there is nothing particular that makes Chinese Democracy more 'special' than any other album, sans its comically troubled gestation.  

The main reason is money/hos. Trying to do something special in context means just not accepting  the status quo of metal or rock. It's just how I see it. Axl was trying to live up to the hype. Or at least do some thing he was into. Most bands are slaves to the label. Ratt etc. they just want to stay on the gravy train. Not that that is a bad thing. Some realities are worth taking into account. Axl didn't just hire another bluesy hard rock guitarist and try to remake UYI for the money like so many other bands do. 

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Just now, wasted said:

The main reason is money/hos. Trying to do something special in context means just not accepting  the status quo of metal or rock. It's just how I see it. Axl was trying to live up to the hype. Or at least do some thing he was into. Most bands are slaves to the label. Ratt etc. they just want to stay on the gravy train. Not that that is a bad thing. Some realities are worth taking into account. Axl didn't just hire another bluesy hard rock guitarist and try to remake UYI for the money like so many other bands do. 

You are really setting the barometer low there, citing Ratt!

There are of course millions of albums, profound musical works, more 'special' than Chinese Democracy, which hold loftier intentions than mere ''money and hos''.

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11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You are really setting the barometer low there, citing Ratt!

There are of course millions of albums, profound musical works, more 'special' than Chinese Democracy, which hold loftier intentions than mere ''money and hos''.

Not really. Even Dylan is ho for the money. But your average hair related band is basically a business first. Even Oasis just drop down into mediocrity for the career. Not doing that was Axl's achilles heel. He made the record he wanted to make, not what the fans or label wanted necessarily. Art and money don't mix. 

I like Ratt. But they definitely rushed a few albums because the label pushed them. 

Edited by wasted
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5 hours ago, wasted said:

The main reason is money/hos. Trying to do something special in context means just not accepting  the status quo of metal or rock. It's just how I see it. Axl was trying to live up to the hype. Or at least do some thing he was into. Most bands are slaves to the label. Ratt etc. they just want to stay on the gravy train. Not that that is a bad thing. Some realities are worth taking into account. Axl didn't just hire another bluesy hard rock guitarist and try to remake UYI for the money like so many other bands do. 

It's true. In a way, even when I take a shower it's mainly for money/hos. Seems like a double standard to judge Appetite fellas like this. They are such stand up guys. Everything Axl has done up to this point has led me to believe money couldn't possibly be the only reason for doing this.

When it's 5 years from now and Slash has just released his fourth Shit With Myles album then I'll know someone is just playing.

Edited by Rovim
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5 minutes ago, Rovim said:

It's true. In a way, when I take a shower it's mainly for money/hos. Seems like a double standard to judge Appetite fellas like this. Everything Axl has done up to this point have led me to believe money couldn't possibly be the only reason for doing this.

When it's 5 years from now and Slash has just released his fourth Shit With Myles album then I'll know someone is just playing.

It's seems more of a tendency than a manifesto. Something to revover from mostly. It's kind of like Axl is trying to be the Bowie of hair metal, but trying is the wrong word and hair metal is too glib. But that kind thing. That doesn't jive well with Brian Perry and Keith McCoy. It's just differing ethoses. Recycling albums is the way to go for a long career. Not many bands are switching styles or trying anything other than just same again really. 

 

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2 hours ago, themadcaplaughs said:

An interesting topic and a lot of great responses. On one hand I can see how, objectively, Guns N' Roses 2001-2014 was not that unsuccessful when compared to other legacy acts. They played a good number of shows, played to hundreds of thousands of people, and released an album that was met with mild critical acclaim and shipped platinum (even if Universal had to utilize an exclusive to do so). 

That would of course be ignoring the strangeness that is Guns N' Roses as led by Axl Rose, and the other posts all went over those well. I guess if I had to point to one thing that really prevented them from reaching their potential, it was the lack of a solid lineup. For better or worse, whether it's logical or not, people identify not just with a band's music, but the identity of the players themselves. Musically speaking, Chinese Democracy was, in my book, a B+/A- album that seemed like a logical successor to the Use Your Illusion Records, but there was just no member of the band to identify with.

Literally every tour the band started, they lost and added members. Even looking at the credits for Chinese Democracy, which reads like some kind of laboratory experiment, you realize you really have no idea who plays what. People like being able to hear a song like "Sweet Child O' Mine" and "November Rain" and being able to say, "there's Slash tearing it up," or to hear a song like "You Ain't the First" and immediately realizing it just possesses that Izzy sound. Here, Axl Frankensteined everything together. With the notable exceptions of the guitar solos in "This I Love" and "There Was A Time" (which admittedly are fantastic), there are no stretches of more than a minute on the album one may definitively point to and say "that was a cool Robin lick" or "there's a typical Brain fill." Everything has been so stitched together that we literally have songs with six credited guitarists and two drummers. This just eliminates any "feel" the album had and feeds more into the image that this album was just Axl's $13 million art project rather than a GN'R album (and once more, I reiterate, I love Chinese Democracy). 

There's a reason people like the 1999-2000 versions of the songs. Because, as loosely defined the "band" may have been at that point, you had a core lineup of Axl, Dizzy, Paul, Robin, and Josh. Each song, no matter how different in style, had a consistent set of musicians giving it a consistent sound. Same goes the version of "Catcher in the Rye" with Brian May playing the guitar solo. It was fun to be able to hear the song and immediately tell Brian May played the solo in a matter of seconds. On the final version, you cannot help but think, "oh cool, whatever shredder was lucky enough to be in the band in 2007 got to record his solo." 

The same thought process even applies to live shows. I could not stand DJ Ashba, but facts are facts and that lineup lasted longer than any other lineup of GN'R, and was also the lineup of "nuGuns" which the general public learned to accept, and even enjoy. It was not because this lineup was, objectively, the "best" (most people, myself included, would agree the 2001/2002 and 2006/2007 lineup were MUCH more solid musically), but having a band stay consistent for five years really allowed them to play well together. 

Agree with most. But I think there are some positives to CD as it is. And I think maybe there are more cohesive songs than most give credit. The whole collective band thing is so 90s with Trent and QOTSA. So CD takes that over the top too. It's almost like an UNKLE hard rock album. It has a movie soundtrack vibe too. These are all layers that make it CD to me. But is that GNR? GNR is more of a band thing. I see how Axl tried to keep it a band thing on release with Ron and Frank being on 5 songs. But like Illusions the scope of it is just beyond certain members. Neither have the band spirit of AFD or in Spag Inc. but they are very rich and entertaining. 

Definitive versions of songs are there for Chi dem, Shackler's, Better, If the World, TWAT, Scraped, Riad, Sorry, Madagascar, This I Love, Prostitute. Stand out solos on Shackler's, If the World, Sorry, TIL, TWAT for me. 

I kind of get the feeling that SOD, Catcher, IRS might sound better in a UYI style or something. Elton goes nu metal is a stretch. SOD really works but it is very taught. I can see how Catcher and IRS might benefit from some air. Catcher seems like it would be great on Lies but the Wall of sound thing is also cool. IRS is very UYI III. It seems a little stifled like it's just wanting to go Civil War open up the guitars. It still has this intricate instrumentation as Axl is going out of of his mind. 

 

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16 hours ago, wasted said:

5 albums is delusional and the rest is subjective/no one cares?

i understand CD, I see why etc but I don't get why Axl, Slash, Izzy wanted to go their seperate ways. But thats where I'd focus, not on Axl trying to struggle on and find a way to save his career. 

 

I was responding to a poster who said that Axl couldn't have handled it better. 

5 albums in 20 years is delusional? Why? GnR put out four albums in a five year span and five albums in I believe seven years.  Why would we think Axl then wouldn't be able to put out five albums in a 20 year period?

And lol - no one cares about music videos, live performance and interviews? Is this your first day on the forum? People are complaining today that Axl and GnR haven't done any interviews in 2016. People care a lot, bro. 

To answer your question about why the classic lineup imploded:

Izzy and Slash were tired of Axl being a prima donna and a dictator. Backstage theme parties, not showing up to rehearsals, blowing off shows or showing up three hours late, etc  

Izzy and Slash wanted to be the next Rolling Stones. Axl wanted seven minute piano ballads and million dollar videos with dolphins. 

Izzy didn't want to risk his sobriety by being around band members that were submerged in huge drug and alcohol habits. 

Axl thought Slash and Duff were wasted too often. 

Axl thought he was GnR and that everybody could be replaced. 

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5 hours ago, wasted said:

Agree with most. But I think there are some positives to CD as it is. And I think maybe there are more cohesive songs than most give credit. The whole collective band thing is so 90s with Trent and QOTSA. So CD takes that over the top too. It's almost like an UNKLE hard rock album. It has a movie soundtrack vibe too. These are all layers that make it CD to me. But is that GNR? GNR is more of a band thing. I see how Axl tried to keep it a band thing on release with Ron and Frank being on 5 songs. But like Illusions the scope of it is just beyond certain members. Neither have the band spirit of AFD or in Spag Inc. but they are very rich and entertaining. 

Definitive versions of songs are there for Chi dem, Shackler's, Better, If the World, TWAT, Scraped, Riad, Sorry, Madagascar, This I Love, Prostitute. Stand out solos on Shackler's, If the World, Sorry, TIL, TWAT for me. 

I kind of get the feeling that SOD, Catcher, IRS might sound better in a UYI style or something. Elton goes nu metal is a stretch. SOD really works but it is very taught. I can see how Catcher and IRS might benefit from some air. Catcher seems like it would be great on Lies but the Wall of sound thing is also cool. IRS is very UYI III. It seems a little stifled like it's just wanting to go Civil War open up the guitars. It still has this intricate instrumentation as Axl is going out of of his mind. 

 

A lot of what makes it Chinese makes it less Gn'R or it's not really Guns in that old school way, even if it has Gn'R elements on every song.

Like most of the shit I want from a new album from an old band is there in some form and if it's not, there is something new to enjoy replacing a loved Gn'R element or going up to 11 to compensate for the lack of Slash.

The problem is that you can't really replace whatever Slash is doing or Izzy, etc in such a collaborative band musically speaking cause everyone had a chance to imprint their sound and style on it in old Guns in such a way that formed something that felt like one super Guns monster.

I think if in old Guns everyone was more open to try to work on songs they didn't like that other members brought in, it would have given them a chance to find something that worked for everyone or at least a compromise. Just like November Rain and Estranged that Slash, Duff, and Matt didn't really want to work on.

Or Oh My God that Duff and Matt rejected.

Slash's Snakepit, and I don't say that as a fan of that album, should have been worked on and I feel that neither side really dealt with that in a proper way.

Chinese is a strange hybrid of what an Axl solo album would have been if he tried to make a Guns album. I kinda assume that if Axl didn't believe he could do everything he wanted musically with Slash and Duff in the band, he wouldn't even consider a half reunion.

If he managed to put together such a varied puzzle with Chinese, maybe he wants to finally put Slash on all that forward thinking and with an actual audience this time to sell it to. Nobody really listened with objective ears.

Last thing: if he releases another Guns album with Slash and Duff, Chinese could be looked at differently in the future. I think people will give it a listen without really caring about any of the baggage even more.

I wouldn't replace Chinese for any album. It works, Axl pulled it off. The next logical phase now will be to get it right with Slash and Duff, do a long tour and voila!

Edited by Rovim
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4 hours ago, Apollo said:

I was responding to a poster who said that Axl couldn't have handled it better. 

5 albums in 20 years is delusional? Why? GnR put out four albums in a five year span and five albums in I believe seven years.  Why would we think Axl then wouldn't be able to put out five albums in a 20 year period?

And lol - no one cares about music videos, live performance and interviews? Is this your first day on the forum? People are complaining today that Axl and GnR haven't done any interviews in 2016. People care a lot, bro. 

To answer your question about why the classic lineup imploded:

Izzy and Slash were tired of Axl being a prima donna and a dictator. Backstage theme parties, not showing up to rehearsals, blowing off shows or showing up three hours late, etc  

Izzy and Slash wanted to be the next Rolling Stones. Axl wanted seven minute piano ballads and million dollar videos with dolphins. 

Izzy didn't want to risk his sobriety by being around band members that were submerged in huge drug and alcohol habits. 

Axl thought Slash and Duff were wasted too often. 

Axl thought he was GnR and that everybody could be replaced. 

I just don't quite understand why they walked away from that. I understand not wanting Axl to show up 3 hours late. But to quit over Axl's control issues when they seemed to kind of know about it from the get go. There's pieces of the puzzle missing for me. 

After that, well Axl is kind of fucked really. So I kind understand why it didn't go smoothly. It's two different contexts, a band just getting successful and basically the band spliting and Axl keeping the name. The first situation makes the second more difficult not easier or a barometer of how easy it is. 

5 albums from 2000 to 2014 from a band that put out 2 in the 90s. Especially with a divided fan base, hostility surrounding the line ups and record sales dropping every year. To me the context makes it unlikely.

The label weren't putting up money for videos to support the release of one record, let alone 3. If there had been support for it then it would have happened. Then records in 2000, 2002, 2004, and throwing remixes and another record maybe. But the context meant not even one came out. And it's not all the label, it was like a tag team of fuck ups.

But I'll never understand why with everything on a plate for them they all wanted to go solo. They didn't just form another band. Izzy went solo, then Slash. So they didn't really value or appreciate what they had misically on AFD and UYI at the time. They still don't want to put it back together. They still haven't made a record without Izzy. I may enjoy CD but it's not almost universally loved like AFD and even UYI. So all their reasons pale in the face of that for me. 

Whereas Axl as the only member in GNR not being wildly successful is not that surprising to me. 

Forum people aren't really regular people. Of course we want interviews. But through 00s videos seemed to not be effective promo. So they stopped doing based on no one caring anymore. But I think it is part of the GNR experience. But people out there are showing up to the shows with no promo. Means they don't care that much about it. 

 

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I don't think anything went wrong. Axl played it about as well as he could've played it. Now it seems like he's going to have his cake and eat it too. He  proved the victor in the dick waving contest and now that all opposition has conceded defeat he's cool to be friends again, but you first, then you, then learn these GNR songs. Welcome to my band Part Deux.

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