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On 07/02/2017 at 0:06 AM, Ewelka said:

Hi everyone! :D I'm new here. I've been reading this forum for a while, but I decided to create an account just now because I have something interasting to share.

I had to read Elliot Aronson's book "The Social Animal" for one of my classes. There's a part in which he talks about the ability to think of something as your own memory from the past even though that memory isn't real. It happens when somebody else mentions to you something as an event that happened in your life and it seems 100% realistic, but you never actually expierienced it. He also said that in 80s and 90s there was a lot of people who because of their therapists realised they forgot they were raped or sexually harassed as small children. Some of them ended up suing their close relatives for this, but then they were noticing that these memories didn't actually make sense (like a person they thought raped them was away at the time) and the memories weren't real, they just added them to their life story because therapists suggested that they could have occured. I don't know if anyone will understand what I'm talking about, it's hard to explain ;P.

Anyway, the first thing that came to my mind  after I read this; what if this is what happend to Axl? It is a logical explanation to me and even the time when he remembered what his father did to him is the same as with those people mentioned in the book. I'm curious to see what you think? :D

5 hours ago, killuridols said:

Hi and welcome :)

We've talked something about that pages ago, when someone posted about Tom Zutaut revealing something Axl never mentioned before, which is that his father used to abuse him in some public restrooms in Indiana.

I wish I could point you to the exact page where this was discussed but conclusions were somewhat similar to what you're saying here.

It's really hard to say if he was dreaming or led by hypnosis to believe something that never happened. I always had doubts with what he said about being raped at 2 years old by his real father. Specially because most babies who have this atrocity happening to them usually die or are left terribly injured and if this really happened to him, there's no way he didnt end up in a hospital and at the hospital they should have denounced the parents. But then again, this is the 60's we're talking about and things may have been totally different to what they are now.

:shrugs:

3 hours ago, Frey said:

This is getting really ugly, but yes, that thought has crossed my mind before because I've unfortunately come across cases like this during the line of work. And yes, you're right, babies and very young children often don't survive sexual assaults like that or are left with severe injuries. On the other hand, Axl did mention having muscle damage in his legs from that incident iirc, and he wasn't an infant anymore (the group most likely not to survive), so who knows. :wacko:

 

I agree that the fact that these stories were the result of regression therapy makes them questionable (although Axl believed/believes them). There is also another thing: there are two stories of sexual abuse involving different people, one that Axl has told in public and one he hasn't. Even though I don't consider it improbable, I wonder if it's too far-fetched and what are the odds for a kid to be subsequently abused by both his biological father and his stepfather.

As far as the case of his real father goes, Axl had said in an interview (Musician 1992 - it has been brought up here before)  that he couldn't be 100% sure it happened, but the relief he felt when it was revealed made him think that it was true; and when he talked about the flashback he had while driving, he didn't say what he remembered at that moment exactly. In the RS interview he said he remembered the injection and his father doing something very bad to his mother. I'm thinking that this might be a case of a real memory being modified and "enhanced" by the regression therapy process. His father could have used the injection to keep the kid calm while he was doing something to his mother. Of course an experience like that alone could be traumatic for a 2 year old child.

I think that between the two stories the more likely to be true is the one Tom Zutaut told (even though Axl never talked about it in public), because the possibility of real/direct memory is bigger, as Axl was older when it allegedly happened.

-----

About the mothers: I agree with the distinction @Frey made between Steven's and Axl's mother. Axl's mother never spoke and all we know about her role is what Axl said, which portrays her as a rather passive woman without the ability or the strength to react or stand for/against something. I assume that these lines from Right Next Door To Hell are Axl's and not Izzy's:

My mamma never really said much to me
She was much too young and scared ta be
Hell "Freud" might say that's what I need

Edited by Blackstar
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2 hours ago, Frey said:

Believe me, I'm the last person who will call women stupid for staying with their abusive hubands. I've seen enough of this shit in my life and I know how these things usually go down. What I was suggesting was more along the lines of us not actually knowing if Axl's mother falls into that category. Do we actually know if Axl's stepfather ever abused or mistreated his mother in any way? I don't remember Axl ever saying anything like that off the top of my head. But he has talked about his mother in words that suggest she was beating or abusing him as well in some ways. For all we know, Axl's stepfather was treating his mother reasonably well and they were more or less functional as a couple, and they both abused their children for whatever fucked up reasons- misguided religious convictions, unresolved resentments towards the children (if you are right with your theory about her never wanting to be a mother, this might come into play), mental health issues, etc. It happens unfortunately.

Like you said, we don't have enough information to really judge one way or another, so I can only go by what Axl and other people have said and that doesn't paint the most flattering picture (even disregarding the more dubious stories). But to be fair, I'm more inclined to give Axl's mom the benefit of the doubt than Steven's. We've never seen Axl's mom or heard her speak in person (and we know she was married to a crazy, awful douchebag), so it's harder to really form an opinion. But Steven's mother just comes across like a really, really toxic and unpleasant person and I have trouble mustering up any sympathy for her. I may also be influenced by seeing Steven talk about his mother kicking him out of the house as a child because her new boyfriend didn't want him around on celebrity rehab or something. That was a pretty gut-wrenching moment and stayed with me.

Well, Axl went into a quite horrifying level of detail himself about that incident iirc, and if you believe his word it makes a (tiny) bit more sense (but it's still really hard to believe). Didn't he say his father had a syringe and injected something (muscle relexants?) into him? Might explain the lack of lethal or severe injuries. But then again, where would this guy even have gotten that shit from and to randomly plan something so incredibly fucked up seems far-fetched as well (meaning that's not how pedophiles usually work).

Yeah, I think Axl said he once saw his father mistreating his mother or something like so it shouldn't be discarded. This type of abusive men usually mistreat everybody in the family, even the pets.

I don't know what to say about the relationship between Axl's mother and the stepfather.... It all could look like flowers and rainbows on the outside and be a fucking hell inside the home. It is usually like that and no one ever suspects anything. Specially in the 60's and before that.

I feel like when Axl spoke about this he was so full of rage and trying to understand why his life was so fucked up. I have gone through the same, all the time hating and un-hating my upbringing, my parents, blaming everybody----- It is very difficult to try to understand your past and what happened to you. Then I reflect and exercise putting myself in their shoes and of course Im always saying "I would have done this better" or "how come these idiots didn't do this or that" and then I realize that I am a different person, that I live in a different time, that my parents were raised in a different time too by people that may have been ignorant as well...... it is all a huge ball of mess when you think about it.

Again, she probably was not the best mother on earth. At 16 who can be a good mother anyway? and when I think of the possibility of standing up for Axl when the father was beating him I also think how hard it is for a woman, any woman, to go in battle with a man, unless you have a gun or a stick, the man will always beat you down. This is my experience and something i had to learn the wrong way: never fight a guy, you will lose like at war.

The possibilities in that regard go from her being scared to hell of the guy; knowing that upsetting him could unleash worse consequences; knowing that confronting him would leave her and her kids in the street to total denial and neglection of what was going on around her, for fear, for ignorance, for just being comfortable?

Like I said, not every woman has a mother instinct... even when they have a child, that instinct sometimes doesn't wake up and there are tons of women who do not love their children. This is an upsetting truth that most people do not want to acknowledge and accept but it is real. So I figure that a woman who never wanted to be a mother, has to become one by force, then of course she won't have feelings for the kid. It may be a psychological problem, a personality problem or just the way the person is.

It is very sad and awful to say it and to think about it and that's why we have to fight to let women run their life as they want and stop nagging them to have children when they don't want to and to have abortions legally. A lot of trauma and lifetime wounds can be saved if you dont force a woman to become a mother.

As for the last part of your post, the injections and such... I don't know but again, could a 2 years old baby be able to put up with injections like that? Muscle relaxants wouldn't prevent the baby from bleeding (geez I dont wanna go into this...) and being injured anyway by the presence of you know what from an adult man.

So to make it short, I dont think a 2 year old can come out unscathered from sexual abuse and this is the main reason why I doubt this story.

 

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So we can post all these theories  about Axl, but we can't make a "Happy Birthday Duff" thread?  OKkkkaaayyyyy.......

Anyhow, looks like Grandpa just walked right onto the plane the minute his boy arrived in Sydney.  Duff's twitter (sorry having troubling posting the whole thing):

Told we had to stay on plane last night in Sydney; 'airport security' wanted to do a check. We waited. It was Angus Young is an orange vest!

Ok Slash, time to bring your A game.  

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29 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Yeah, I think Axl said he once saw his father mistreating his mother or something like so it shouldn't be discarded. This type of abusive men usually mistreat everybody in the family, even the pets.

I don't know what to say about the relationship between Axl's mother and the stepfather.... It all could look like flowers and rainbows on the outside and be a fucking hell inside the home. It is usually like that and no one ever suspects anything. Specially in the 60's and before that.

I feel like when Axl spoke about this he was so full of rage and trying to understand why his life was so fucked up. I have gone through the same, all the time hating and un-hating my upbringing, my parents, blaming everybody----- It is very difficult to try to understand your past and what happened to you. Then I reflect and exercise putting myself in their shoes and of course Im always saying "I would have done this better" or "how come these idiots didn't do this or that" and then I realize that I am a different person, that I live in a different time, that my parents were raised in a different time too by people that may have been ignorant as well...... it is all a huge ball of mess when you think about it.

Again, she probably was not the best mother on earth. At 16 who can be a good mother anyway? and when I think of the possibility of standing up for Axl when the father was beating him I also think how hard it is for a woman, any woman, to go in battle with a man, unless you have a gun or a stick, the man will always beat you down. This is my experience and something i had to learn the wrong way: never fight a guy, you will lose like at war.

The possibilities in that regard go from her being scared to hell of the guy; knowing that upsetting him could unleash worse consequences; knowing that confronting him would leave her and her kids in the street to total denial and neglection of what was going on around her, for fear, for ignorance, for just being comfortable?

Like I said, not every woman has a mother instinct... even when they have a child, that instinct sometimes doesn't wake up and there are tons of women who do not love their children. This is an upsetting truth that most people do not want to acknowledge and accept but it is real. So I figure that a woman who never wanted to be a mother, has to become one by force, then of course she won't have feelings for the kid. It may be a psychological problem, a personality problem or just the way the person is.

It is very sad and awful to say it and to think about it and that's why we have to fight to let women run their life as they want and stop nagging them to have children when they don't want to and to have abortions legally. A lot of trauma and lifetime wounds can be saved if you dont force a woman to become a mother.

As for the last part of your post, the injections and such... I don't know but again, could a 2 years old baby be able to put up with injections like that? Muscle relaxants wouldn't prevent the baby from bleeding (geez I dont wanna go into this...) and being injured anyway by the presence of you know what from an adult man.

So to make it short, I dont think a 2 year old can come out unscathered from sexual abuse and this is the main reason why I doubt this story.

 

Well to me i heard he has some hip or leg injury since he was secually abused and Tom Zutaut also told a story of him being raped so to me no matter what age it was he was definiatly raped i dont think he would lie about it, even if it was through regression therapy i do fully believe he was raped

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13 minutes ago, Fansince88 said:

So we can post all these theories  about Axl, but we can't make a "Happy Birthday Duff" thread?  OKkkkaaayyyyy.......

Anyhow, looks like Grandpa just walked right onto the plane the minute his boy arrived in Sydney.  Duff's twitter (sorry having troubling posting the whole thing):

Told we had to stay on plane last night in Sydney; 'airport security' wanted to do a check. We waited. It was Angus Young is an orange vest!

Ok Slash, time to bring your A game.  

What?! Grandpa Angus is too sweet :rofl-lol:

C'mon Slash, this should be a good battle for Axl's affection :headbang:

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14 minutes ago, Mary Cochrane said:

Well to me i heard he has some hip or leg injury since he was secually abused and Tom Zutaut also told a story of him being raped so to me no matter what age it was he was definiatly raped i dont think he would lie about it, even if it was through regression therapy i do fully believe he was raped

that you believe in ufo's doesn't make them real. :rolleyes:

We have discussed both things above and other pages. You should read it again, with some pauses in between.

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1 minute ago, killuridols said:

that you believe in ufo's doesn't make them real. :rolleyes:

We have discussed both things above and other pages. You should read it again, with some pauses in between.

Very true :) i have read all of it from page 1 to up till now and i dont know to me it... kind of fits in to place its very muddled up but at some point in his younger life i believe it happened :) xxx 

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26 minutes ago, Fansince88 said:

So we can post all these theories  about Axl, but we can't make a "Happy Birthday Duff" thread?  OKkkkaaayyyyy.......

Anyhow, looks like Grandpa just walked right onto the plane the minute his boy arrived in Sydney.  Duff's twitter (sorry having troubling posting the whole thing):

Told we had to stay on plane last night in Sydney; 'airport security' wanted to do a check. We waited. It was Angus Young is an orange vest!

Ok Slash, time to bring your A game.  

Out of likes ;)

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5 minutes ago, Fansince88 said:

You know Axl loves big gestures  ----putting on the orange vest and surprising him on the plane is pretty sweet.  I hope Kat or someone took a picture of that moment. I'd love to see it.  

I know I was hoping the same thing...damn would love to see the Sydney shows :headbang:

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