PappyTron Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Yeah of course. Doesn't make their actions any less evil than someone that does it (in their minds) for their religion. And this also brings up another point that the worst mass murderers in history have been atheists. Mao, Stalin, Hitler, etc. Again, should we be looking at atheism as a cause of the worst crimes in history the same way we look to religion as a cause to some terrorist attacks? I can easily say that the reason they perpetrated these horrific crimes is because their lack in believing there is eternal punishment for committing such crimes (as most of the major world religions believe there is)....the same way one who points to religion as causing terrorist attacks because "they believe they will be rewarded for such actions". I can easily say they did it because of their lack of belief the same way you say others do it because of their belief. My point (again) is that there are evil people in all groups...and some of the most evil people throughout history were atheist. Some of most evil crimes in history had nothing to do with religion. In fact many times it was the atheists that were committing crimes and autrocities against certain groups because of their religious beliefs. Hitler was a Catholic, born, raised and practicing. Moreover, the Catholic church refused to excommunicate Hitler or any of the Nazi high officials, and entered into a peace pact with Mussolini. Good people tend to do good things and bad people tend to do bad things, but if you want a good person to do bad things then all you need is religion. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 2 minutes ago, PappyTron said: Hitler was a Catholic, born, raised and practicing. Moreover, the Catholic church refused to excommunicate Hitler or any of the Nazi high officials, and entered into a peace pact with Mussolini. Good people tend to do good things and bad people tend to do bad things, but if you want a good person to do bad things then all you need is religion. Hitler may have been raised Catholic but nothing he did during his reign of terror had anything to do with the Catholic belief system. And what about Mao and Stalin? What made them do what they did? I can believe to an extent people could potentially be "brainwashed" into doing some things but that could go for just about anything, not just religion. The German people were brainwashed into committing horrible acts during WWII which had nothing to do with religion. Were all those people that were just following orders not "good people that did bad things because of Nazism" Same logic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappyTron Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 1 minute ago, Kasanova King said: Hitler may have been raised Catholic but nothing he did during his reign of terror had anything to do with the Catholic belief system. And what about Mao and Stalin? What made them do what they did? I can believe to an extent people could potentially be "brainwashed" into doing some things but that could go for just about anything, not just religion. The German people were brainwashed into committing horrible acts during WWII which had nothing to do with religion. Were all those people that were just following orders not "good people that did bad things because of Nazism" Same logic. Hitler believed that he was doing God's work, just the same as George Bush believed that God spoke to him and told him to invade Iraq, leading to the deaths of something like two million people. What about Stalin and Mao? They were evil people doing evil things. As for "the German people" the average German person committed no more or less help to the German war effort than the average America did; they certainly weren't all working as guards in concentration camps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgy Zhukov Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Please people, Hitler wasn't a Christian. He believed only in himself. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeanGenie Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 19 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Hitler may have been raised Catholic but nothing he did during his reign of terror had anything to do with the Catholic belief system. And what about Mao and Stalin? What made them do what they did? I can believe to an extent people could potentially be "brainwashed" into doing some things but that could go for just about anything, not just religion. The German people were brainwashed into committing horrible acts during WWII which had nothing to do with religion. Were all those people that were just following orders not "good people that did bad things because of Nazism" Same logic. National socialism actually had many characteristics of a religion too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappyTron Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 12 minutes ago, Georgy Zhukov said: Please people, Hitler wasn't a Christian. He believed only in himself. "Besides that, I believe one thing: there is a Lord God! And this Lord God creates the peoples" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgy Zhukov Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 Belief in God doesn't make you a Christian. He has spoken against Christianity to Speer, Borman, Goebbels. He felt it has weakened humanity and the days of pre-Christian Europe were the glory days. He wanted to replace Christianity with himself in place of Jesus or even God. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappyTron Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 2 hours ago, Georgy Zhukov said: Belief in God doesn't make you a Christian. He has spoken against Christianity to Speer, Borman, Goebbels. He felt it has weakened humanity and the days of pre-Christian Europe were the glory days. He wanted to replace Christianity with himself in place of Jesus or even God. Hitler spoke over and over about his support of Christianity and how it was the foundation of both the German identity and of German morality. If you want to make the claim that he wasn't a Christian based on his actions then I'll simply counter that by the same yardstick there are NO Christians as each and every one goes against some core tenet or another. There is no evidence that Hitler was faking his belief in Christianity, but plenty of evidence that he believed that killing the Jews was ordained by God because Jesus also hated the Jews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted June 13, 2016 Share Posted June 13, 2016 3 minutes ago, PappyTron said: Hitler spoke over and over about his support of Christianity and how it was the foundation of both the German identity and of German morality. If you want to make the claim that he wasn't a Christian based on his actions then I'll simply counter that by the same yardstick there are NO Christians as each and every one goes against some core tenet or another. There is no evidence that Hitler was faking his belief in Christianity, but plenty of evidence that he believed that killing the Jews was ordained by God because Jesus also hated the Jews. Jesus was Jewish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappyTron Posted June 13, 2016 Author Share Posted June 13, 2016 12 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Jesus was Jewish. No way! Jesus stated himself that he was there to bring the wicked Jews to account. That is the link that Hitler was using; that Jesus himself said that the Jews were wicked and lazy (though he was referring to the elders). Context, Kas, context. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 My boy Pappy is crazy smart 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 4 hours ago, PappyTron said: No way! Jesus stated himself that he was there to bring the wicked Jews to account. That is the link that Hitler was using; that Jesus himself said that the Jews were wicked and lazy (though he was referring to the elders). Context, Kas, context. That's a far cry from "Jesus hated Jews"...which obviously was never the case. Jesus spoke out against corrupted officials, Pharisees and people of the time, including Jews that were corrupt. At the same time, he showed an unparrallelled love and devotion to people, his followers, etc. most of them who also happened to be Jewish. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappyTron Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 1 minute ago, Kasanova King said: That's a far cry from "Jesus hated Jews"...which obviously was never the case. Jesus spoke out against corrupted officials, Pharisees and people of the time, including Jews that were corrupt. At the same time, he showed an unparrallelled love and devotion to people, his followers, etc. most of them who also happened to be Jewish. Jesus hated Jews is the mantra that Hitler pushed, not me. Hitler used Jesus's condemnation of the corrupt Jewish temple leaders, whom he called "the sons of Satan", as justification for his own beliefs. That Jesus was speaking about a small and specific group of people is neither here nor there when taken into context over what Hitler was preaching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 8 hours ago, netcat said: it's hard to deny that some religions encourage intolerance more than others... so it's not surprising that they attract nut jobs of all stripes who need to not just kill, but to kill and maintain their moral superiority. although i think there's no principal difference between those who kill random people for religious, political, crimirnal or pathological reasons. they are all wackos Unless of course you're in government, then it's for freedom. Not a lot of big Noah Cross fans around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 11 minutes ago, PappyTron said: Jesus hated Jews is the mantra that Hitler pushed, not me. Hitler used Jesus's condemnation of the corrupt Jewish temple leaders, whom he called "the sons of Satan", as justification for his own beliefs. That Jesus was speaking about a small and specific group of people is neither here nor there when taken into context over what Hitler was preaching. So Hitler obviously was not Christian. He twisted and warped a specific story about Jesus and turned it to something completely different in order to "justify his own beliefs" the same way delusional, sick and twisted people distort the teachings of Islam or other religions to justify their delusional beliefs. Again, bad people do bad things. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappyTron Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 20 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: So Hitler obviously was not Christian. He twisted and warped a specific story about Jesus and turned it to something completely different in order to "justify his own beliefs" the same way delusional, sick and twisted people distort the teachings of Islam or other religions to justify their delusional beliefs. Again, bad people do bad things. A Christian is a person who believes in and follows Christ, so Hitler was a Christian. As for Islam, that is a more complex question, as both the Koran and Hadiths are clear as to their instructions and some of those instructions clearly condone murder. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Georgy Zhukov Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 I don't think the Hadith should be taken as seriously. Mostly written by scholars who lived hundreds of years after Muhammad. Qur'an says you can drink as long as you are not prayer or holding the Qur'an. Also not a good idea to drink on the Hajj. That is smart. Pork is fine if you don't want to insult your host. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 2 hours ago, PappyTron said: A Christian is a person who believes in and follows Christ, so Hitler was a Christian. As for Islam, that is a more complex question, as both the Koran and Hadiths are clear as to their instructions and some of those instructions clearly condone murder. He didn't believe in and follow Christ. lol. That's the point. He believed in and followed himself and used his delusional version of "a" Christ to justify his agenda. His version of Christ is not the Christian and Biblical version of Jesus Christ, in which Christians believe in and follow so therefore he was not Christian. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bran Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 6 hours ago, Len B'stard said: My boy Pappy is crazy smart probably the smartest poster on these boards, mind like a steel trap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappyTron Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 14 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: He didn't believe in and follow Christ. lol. That's the point. He believed in and followed himself and used his delusional version of "a" Christ to justify his agenda. His version of Christ is not the Christian and Biblical version of Jesus Christ, in which Christians believe in and follow so therefore he was not Christian. There is zero evidence to suggest that he didn't believe in Jesus, and plenty of evidence to suggest that he did; even the Vatican never denounced him or said anything other than what a great Catholic he was. Following the teachings of Christ is not, believe it or not, a prerequisite to believing in him, and like I said previously, if strict adherence to Christ's teachings is the litmus test then nobody is a true Christian. Moreover, did Jesus himself not say that only a person themselves can know whether they know Christ or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Archer Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, PappyTron said: There is zero evidence to suggest that he didn't believe in Jesus, and plenty of evidence to suggest that he did; even the Vatican never denounced him or said anything other than what a great Catholic he was. Following the teachings of Christ is not, believe it or not, a prerequisite to believing in him, and like I said previously, if strict adherence to Christ's teachings is the litmus test then nobody is a true Christian. Moreover, did Jesus himself not say that only a person themselves can know whether they know Christ or not? I'm not sure how much Hitler's 'Catholicism' influenced his hatred towards Jews - Germany had a long history of anti-semitism before Hitler. A certain Martin Luther, was a notable example of someone who spewed hate against the Jewish people, a few hundred years before the Nazis. Also, it would seem that the Vatican's actions during the war were a little more complicated than just being vacuous cheerleaders of a lapsed Catholic, who may have believed in Jesus as a historical figure, but certainly didn't consider him a personal or universal savior, or believed him to be the physical incarnation of a divinity that he 'believed' in. A few interesting articles - http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/not-hitlers-pope/ http://www.salon.com/2015/10/17/the_pope_wanted_hitler_dead_the_secret_story_of_the_vaticans_war_to_kill_the_nazi_despot/ Edited June 14, 2016 by The Archer 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) Hitler was not a christian, or not a practicing one - he was baptised Catholic but was essentially an atheist who sought his 'foundation theories in Social Darwinism, the aryan race. Hitler actually found the presence of Christianity irritating, however something he had to work with and compromise with, given its conservatism and influence in Germany (much like the Heer, the German army, and the German junkers in fact). He found Christian ethics effeminate and clericalism decadent and flabby. His views on religion were much like Napoleon's, viewed cynically as a conservative institute, something one could - or needed to - pragmatically manipulate as a piece of concurrent realpolitik. There is actually some evidence to suggest Hitler ultimately aimed to destroy Christianity in Europe. This was unrealised given the war and collapse of The Third Reich. If Hitler had any religious passion, it was with the Nordic pagan gods, Valhalla, of Wagnerian opera. He probably didn't ideologically believe their existence but for him they provided the cultural tropes and mythos for his Reich and German character much better than Christianity. Edited June 14, 2016 by DieselDaisy 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PappyTron Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 10 hours ago, The Archer said: I'm not sure how much Hitler's 'Catholicism' influenced his hatred towards Jews - Germany had a long history of anti-semitism before Hitler. A certain Martin Luther, was a notable example of someone who spewed hate against the Jewish people, a few hundred years before the Nazis. Also, it would seem that the Vatican's actions during the war were a little more complicated than just being vacuous cheerleaders of a lapsed Catholic, who may have believed in Jesus as a historical figure, but certainly didn't consider him a personal or universal savior, or believed him to be the physical incarnation of a divinity that he 'believed' in. A few interesting articles - http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/not-hitlers-pope/ http://www.salon.com/2015/10/17/the_pope_wanted_hitler_dead_the_secret_story_of_the_vaticans_war_to_kill_the_nazi_despot/ Well, the million Dollar question is which came first for Hitler; his hatred of the Jews and then using Jesus as justification, or whether, as a Christian he resented the Jews for their treatment and denial of Christ. Either way it doesn't change the fact that Hitler was a believer in Jesus and in the Christian God. Beyond that, we can only go on what we know; that Hitler never said anything to suggest that he did not believe in the God of the Bible, and that Pius never publicly condemned Hitler or the Holocaust. I see that Kasanova King is busy Liking every post by anyone who says that Hitler was not a Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Archer Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Just now, PappyTron said: Well, the million Dollar question is which came first for Hitler; his hatred of the Jews and then using Jesus as justification, or whether, as a Christian he resented the Jews for their treatment and denial of Christ. Either way it doesn't change the fact that Hitler was a believer in Jesus and in the Christian God. Beyond that, we can only go on what we know; that Hitler never said anything to suggest that he did not believe in the God of the Bible, and that Pius never publicly condemned Hitler or the Holocaust. I see that Kasanova King is busy Liking every post by anyone who says that Hitler was not a Christian. 'Hitler's conception of an 'Aryan' Christ as a champion against the Jews, while probably not unique, is just beyond ludicrous. Hitler's 'Christian' beliefs probably held that the Aryan Holy Spirit impregnated the Semitic Mary and cleansed the resultant mixed race Jesus of his olive/brown skin and raven hair and dark eyes and made him thoroughly Nordic with pink sin, blonde hair and blue eyes So, maybe if this way Hitler's Jesus could 'pass' for being Aryan, Hitler could 'pass' for being Catholic and Jehovah could 'pass' for being Odin. Of course, this would be as likely as one chooses for it to be. However so you try to define Hitler as legitimately 'Christian', it's a bit of a stretch to call him a 'believer'. He could have been a 'believer' of the tooth fairy too and championed his version of that belief for its usefulness, without being a believer 'in' the tooth fairy. Likewise, he could have been a believer of Jesus, without being a believer in Jesus. As for Pius and the Catholics - the articles above, along with plentiful other evidence, clearly indicate why choosing not to directly condemn Hitler, was the wiser, if not necessarily more moral choice, for Pius and the Catholic hierarchy. It can be argued that instead of acquiescing to Hitler's secular overlordship, the more legitimately 'Christian' thing for them to do would have been to defy Hitler and face extermination. Say, in the manner of the underground Roman church of the early centuries, or the Russians under the Bolsheviks, or the Armenians under the Turks, in the hope of eventually surviving their persecuting enemy, with their integrity intact and without blemish. Or, they could have simply evacuated the Vatican and established a Papacy in exile - the worst that could have happened would have been Hitler re-doing the Sistine frescos with images of the Nazis victorious in Valhalla. Instead, the Vatican chose passive-aggressive resistance over outright opposition, in order to survive. But, this lack of condemnation does not amount to an endorsement of Hitler's personal beliefs or 'faith' as being Christian, or his extermination of Jews (and gypsies and Protestants AND Catholics) as being sanctioned by the Church, or legitimize his actions as that of a Catholic, whether lapsed or indifferent or fake. Everyone from rampaging Huns to murderous Arab Caliphs, from benign Ottoman Sultans to indifferent Mongol Khans, have been engaged with and accommodated, by Popes and Patriarchs, who in order to ensure the survival of their ecclesiastical dominions, rendered token submission to hostile Caesars. That doesn't legitimize any of them or their atrocities as Christian. Hitler's actions and his tenuous connection to Catholicism by birth, don't make him one either. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, PappyTron said: Well, the million Dollar question is which came first for Hitler; his hatred of the Jews and then using Jesus as justification, or whether, as a Christian he resented the Jews for their treatment and denial of Christ. Either way it doesn't change the fact that Hitler was a believer in Jesus and in the Christian God. Beyond that, we can only go on what we know; that Hitler never said anything to suggest that he did not believe in the God of the Bible, and that Pius never publicly condemned Hitler or the Holocaust. I see that Kasanova King is busy Liking every post by anyone who says that Hitler was not a Christian. That's because he wasn't Pappy. I've stated my case ...yet all you do is sensationalize things that never happened....or if they did happen, you are twisting the facts to make them fit your agenda (much like Hitler himself did)...everything you've stated so far has been completely unsubstantiated. The burden of proof lies with you. Show factual documented evidence, from valid historians stating that Hitler was a Christian and followed and worshiped Jesus Christ (as portrayed in the Bible) as an adult and when he ruled Germany under the Nazi party. Links please. Edited June 14, 2016 by Kasanova King Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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