John Kalodner thinks that GNR wont release a great album

[Rovim]

4 minutes ago, Apollo said:

Do you remember when you lost your virginity?

Do you remember the best sex you ever had?

Do you remember the 107th time you had sex? No? So because the 107th time wasn't as amazing and memorable as the first time you got some trim...and it wasn't as fantastic and perfect as the "best" time...does that mean you aren't ever going to have sex again?

Every album doesn't have to be the best album of your career. It's just rock and roll. Create music and let your fans enjoy it. That's it  

 

But what if you think you've built something great, the only thing anyone is gonna remember you by, and for some people that's important.

The recorded legacy of Gn'R seems so important to Axl, that he is too careful about not fuckin' with it by releasing a dud.

It seems illogical, but artists are not known for it really. Axl has a serious problem of letting it go if he's not absolutely sure it passes all of his artistic tests and even then it has to have a chance to succeed or at least be accepted.

Your logical examples are irrelevant cause I think Axl's top priority as an artist is first to take as much time as needed to have something he's proud of as a Guns album, find the ideal way to release it, and only then actually release it.

 

[Apollo]

26 minutes ago, Rovim said:

But what if you think you've built something great, the only thing anyone is gonna remember you by, and for some people that's important.

The recorded legacy of Gn'R seems so important to Axl, that he is too careful about not fuckin' with it by releasing a dud.

It seems illogical, but artists are not known for it really. Axl has a serious problem of letting it go if he's not absolutely sure it passes all of his artistic tests and even then it has to have a chance to succeed or at least be accepted.

Your logical examples are irrelevant cause I think Axl's top priority as an artist is first to take as much time as needed to have something he's proud of as a Guns album, find the ideal way to release it, and only then actually release it.

 

Rolling Stones have released over 40 albums. A lot of them were duds. Some have zero songs played live. Yet they are generally considered to be the best rock band of all time. 

In the music world your legacy is defined by your hits abd successes. Not by your failures. 

Have you seen the interview where   Axl says he would hate to become an artist who just plays his hits. That doesn't quite lineup with how you romanticize his "choosing" or his reasons for not sharing the three or four albums of material he has in the can. 

The truth is that nobody on here knows why he doesn't want to share his music.   It's all just speculation. You paint him in a great light. But you do know you are just guessing and could be 100% wrong. 

I miss the Axl who said fuck the industry norm. Let's release 150 minutes of music on two albums at the same time. The guy who released 50 songs in a four year period. 

That dude tried to sculpt his legacy by attempting to kick our ass with amazing music. He didn't sit on tens of songs for a decade at a time trying to make sure all the signs were lined up perfectly. 

[dalsh327]

4 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

I find nothing within what I said to be lunacy. It's been said by countless classic artists how important certain producers were to their careers. I did not say that there was one rule for all, but I do stand by the position that producers can and quite often focus the record, move it away fro stodgy bloated sections and make it leaner or in other cases take something that's too bare bones and make it something completely off the wall but still fantastic, George Martin for example took The Beatles and helped them create he sound that has defined the last 50 plus years, without him those songs would have been quite different (Arrangement ideas, recording ideas etc.). You also mention Roy Thomas Baker obviously in reference to Chinese; well I love Chinese Democracy, I'm not saying I wish the record was different and that Bob had won over Axl... but I am saying that Bob Ezrin was sort of right! I like CD but look at the rest of the forum! the majority are divided on it and if polled there are probably 3 to 4 songs that everyone agrees on. Ezrin was probably suggesting that if Axl was after a hit record then he needed to rethink the record... The record sold well for 2008 but it was not a hit record and left most people on the fence as opposed to putting GnR back on the map. 

And Like Diesel said both Roy Thomas Baker and Bob Ezrin have incredible careers, with hands in some of the most popular records in rock... so, I'm afraid while you can have that opinion I strongly disagree.

I agree that music is language and what feels good usually is good! but here's a case study for you Metallica: working with hard line producers Black Album, Death Magnetic. Working without a producer and just going with what feels good Lulu... if a producer stopped by those sessions I'd like to say they'd have tried to craft the songs a better and say "Lou! No! Bad Lou!" and the same thing to Metallica.

You also have to factor in Jimmy Iovine being a part of it and his own track record as a producer and engineer, but as far as the Interscope organization went in dealing with Axl, it sounded like they were part of the problem. We'll probably never know how Jimmy really felt about the album unless he writes a memoir. At the time he stood by it.....or did he really? 

Lulu wasn't a conventional Metallica album and they weren't promoting it as one. A handful of Lou Reed fans & critics defended it because Lou's history and romance with the guitar, noise and feedback made sense to him working with Metallica. No different than Kurt Cobain doing guitar for William Burroughs' audiobook or any old & young(er) one off collaborations. 

Metallica was in a better place as far as taking risks went, especially after they acquired the master tape rights, but then they decide to throw a ton of cash into making Through the Never (I doubt Axl spent a penny on Appetite for Democracy 3D). 

 

[Rovim]

9 minutes ago, Apollo said:

Rolling Stones have released over 40 albums. A lot of them were duds. Some have zero songs played live. Yet they are generally considered to be the best rock band of all time. 

In the music world your legacy is defined by your hits abd successes. Not by your failures. 

Have you seen the interview where   Axl says he would hate to become an artist who just plays his hits. That doesn't quite lineup with how you romanticize his "choosing" or his reasons for not sharing the three or four albums of material he has in the can. 

The truth is that nobody on here knows why he doesn't want to share his music.   It's all just speculation. You paint him in a great light. But you do know you are just guessing and could be 100% wrong. 

I miss the Axl who said fuck the industry norm. Let's release 150 minutes of music on two albums at the same time. The guy who released 50 songs in a four year period. 

That dude tried to sculpt his legacy by attempting to kick our ass with amazing music. He didn't sit on tens of songs for a decade at a time trying to make sure all the signs were lined up perfectly. 

But this dude does. Now Axl has all the control. So the dude that treats Guns N' Roses as his own solo project is gonna do things differently compared to how he did it when he didn't have a choice. Now he has all the choices, so his priorities dictate the whole operation and he takes his time until it's ready. That is not likely to change.

What is more relevant is how Axl has handled it for the past 20 years, not what happened when Axl was still a team player. Now he is the dictator and you expect him to go against the norm.

He is going against the norm. The norm of releasing albums just for the sake of releasing more albums and making more money by touring.

But a Guns album is a difficult task to achieve considering how Axl sees it, Slash's return, and other factors.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Rovim

[wasted]

It does seem like a mixture of Axl the artist and trying to meet the expectations of being GNR businesswise. 

It also sort of doesn't bother me. Patton's Faith No More another band I like have about the same amount of albums. The difference is they put out a record in 97. Then a reunion record recently. 

Soundgarden are similar I think too. They have a late 90s album then a more recent reunion album. 

I guess these three bands broke up. GNR are the last to do a reunion. None of them are as prolific as Stones or Aerosmith. So I don't think GNR are alone. 

Even if Axl wanted to do a record every few years he doesn't seem to have the band to do it. He would really need Izzy's tunes and Slash's riffs to consistently put out GNR product. 

[ludurigan]

23 hours ago, wasted said:

Maybe they feel like they have something to prove. The GNFR album from Axl, Slash and Duff. Something they failed at in the late 90s. They want to back to the future. 

yeah maybe

[DieselDaisy]

This ''Roy Thomas Baker album'', ''Beaven album'' is all bollocks. Axl couldn't bring himself to release that album until 2008 (and even then, he didn't want to release it). That is the only Chinese Democracy album, the one that was released.

All excuses to excuse his laziness and tinkering.

[Tom2112]

9 hours ago, Rovim said:

That's what band members are for and close friends. To give you the feedback you need without fuckin' with it.

But it can basically be anyone you trust. Lars Ulrich's dad for example. Alan Niven suggested not repeating the WTTJ breakdown. Even outside writers like West and Paul can help make it happen.

But it's risky when you care too much about negative opinion or just factor that in. It's like reading reviews and why many musicians and actors don't do it cause it fucks with their head.

For Axl, bringing in Bob Erin was a terrible idea. To say only 3 tunes are good and that it's not ready? I guess that was his real opinion, but sometimes the truth doesn't help shit at all, especially if it's not even the truth, it's an opinion of one man that is control driven as it is and gets in the way in the studio many times with a lot of bands he produced.

It was the opinion of one man and at least 3/4 of the gnr fan base... 

I don't think you really understand the role of a producer. You seem to think it's about meddling and fucking everything up, but really it's about helping the artists reach their goals, on time, and keeping the original vision in mind. While the musicians go off and get lost in creating, it's the producers job to look at things with perspective and be able to say "that song doesn't fit with the other batch of songs". Your friends and family can help, but I really don't see the difference... they are still an outside ear, and that's why you pay a producer you respect to work with you. You're just missing the point.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Tom2112

[maynard]

Rovim questioning Bob Erzin, one of the greatest producers of all time, because he also agrees CD is mostly shit. Hilarious.

[Rovim]

1 hour ago, maynard said:

Rovim questioning Bob Erzin, one of the greatest producers of all time, because he also agrees CD is mostly shit. Hilarious.

He didn't think CD was mostly shit or shit at all, he thought there was some potential there as an album, but it wasn't ready to be mixed cause Ezrin thought some crucial changes needed to be made. It was painted over too many times in his opinion.

I don't give a fuck he's one of the greatest, I question how helpful it was for Axl to hear his opinion, even if it was genuine. And Ezrin is known to get involved too much sometimes, even writing parts for tunes and you kinda get his style, not the band's on occasion.

But he is a great producer. I just feel it didn't help at all that Axl was willing to move forward and mix and believed it was good enough and so many sources were against it.

He could have released that version of the album when he was in the mood then. Ezrin, RTB with rereocrding the album, and the label that probably wanted a hit single and didn't found it in the earlier versions of Chinese so they told Axl to improve it.

 

 

Edited November 29, 2016 by Rovim

[Rovim]

1 hour ago, Tom2112 said:

It was the opinion of one man and at least 3/4 of the gnr fan base... 

I don't think you really understand the role of a producer. You seem to think it's about meddling and fucking everything up, but really it's about helping the artists reach their goals, on time, and keeping the original vision in mind. While the musicians go off and get lost in creating, it's the producers job to look at things with perspective and be able to say "that song doesn't fit with the other batch of songs". Your friends and family can help, but I really don't see the difference... they are still an outside ear, and that's why you pay a producer you respect to work with you. You're just missing the point.

I don't think you understand there are more than one kind of a producer. There is the meddling kind. Bob Ezrin is the meddling kind. That doesn't mean he's not great.

On the other side of the spectrum is Rick Rubin. Not meddling kind, doesn't give a fuck kind.

And then there are George Martin, Eddie Kramer, Mike Clink. The extra band member producer types.

All the roles of the producer are dictated by what type of producer they are and what a specific album and band require. Of course they are still outside, but sometimes they can get in, even get to play on the album like Bob Rock on bass in St. Anger. I think you're missing some information, and many points as well.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

Bob Ezrin was not even brought on-board as a producer: he was hired as an A&R man.

[Rovim]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Bob Ezrin was not even brought on-board as a producer: he was hired as an A&R man.

Yeah... but he is also a producer and Axl wanted his opinion as one. Taste and knowledge based on his abilities and past work. (not as an A&R man)

Edited November 29, 2016 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

3 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Yeah... but he is also a producer and Axl wanted his opinion as one. Taste and knowledge based on his abilities and past work. (not as an A&R man)

Well he was brought in as an A&R man however you care to dress it up. Chinese Democracy already had a (then) producer, Roy Thomas Baker.

[Rovim]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well he was brought in as an A&R man however you care to dress it up. Chinese Democracy already had a (then) producer, Roy Thomas Baker.

What is your point, exactly? Ezrin did his thing and gave feedback on the version of Chinese Axl had at the time.

Doesn't matter that RTB also fucked with Chinese, rerecording the album, Ezrin, as an A&R man, producer, or the easter bunny, told Axl there were only a couple of tunes he thought were good enough to be released as is, and the rest has potential and should be worked on, and he would be happy to help that become a reality for Axl. He also thought the material was "painted over too many times". Overcooked he thought.

But Axl was ready to mix and he delayed it long enough so my point was it might have been better without Ezrin's feedback and RTB's decision to rerecord shit that could have been just tweaked more in the studio.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Rovim said:

He also thought the material was "painted over too many times". Overcooked he thought.

He was right! The album is an absolute mess. Layers upon layers of masturbation.

[maynard]

11 hours ago, Rovim said:

 To say only 3 tunes are good and that it's not ready? I guess that was his real opinion, but sometimes the truth doesn't help shit at all, especially if it's not even the truth, it's an opinion of one man

lol Rovim. I agree with you, it's not true. It was only 1 tune that was good enough.

[DieselDaisy]

If you want to know why that horrible album was delayed, here is why,

Quote

"[A year earlier,] they were paying enormous rental bills and they were paying people to sit around the studio waiting for Axl to show up and it was just a disaster." (Bob Ezrin, HitChannel, 04/12/12)

Rather than blaming Ezrin, Baker, Iovine, the tea lady, (etc) why not blame the source of the problem: Axl Rose himself?

[Rovim]

7 minutes ago, maynard said:

lol Rovim. I agree with you, it's not true. It was only 1 tune that was good enough.

Shhhh. I'm listening to U2's best album, "Pop". It is just fantastic. Better than the Joshua Tree, Achtung Baby, and Apocalyptic Love combined.

[maynard]

1 hour ago, Rovim said:

Shhhh. I'm listening to U2's best album, "Pop". It is just fantastic. Better than the Joshua Tree, Achtung Baby, and Apocalyptic Love combined.

Oh yeah? Good for you. It is a great album and personally my favorite from them. But let's talk about your shitty posts and shitty Chinese Democracy here.

"it's not even the truth"

[WhenYou'reTalkinToYourself]

2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

He was right! The album is an absolute mess. Layers upon layers of masturbation.

Literally. But masturbation to hard porn is a good source of inspiration for Buckethead. 

He watches perverted porn and then he writes the TWAT solo.

[Good, Fuck'n, Night.]

12 hours ago, Rovim said:

But this dude does. Now Axl has all the control. So the dude that treats Guns N' Roses as his own solo project is gonna do things differently compared to how he did it when he didn't have a choice. Now he has all the choices, so his priorities dictate the whole operation and he takes his time until it's ready. That is not likely to change.

What is more relevant is how Axl has handled it for the past 20 years, not what happened when Axl was still a team player. Now he is the dictator and you expect him to go against the norm.

He is going against the norm. The norm of releasing albums just for the sake of releasing more albums and making more money by touring.

But a Guns album is a difficult task to achieve considering how Axl sees it, Slash's return, and other factors.

You assume Axls not releasing material is his striving for perfection for the sake of guns legacy. I think the weight of expectation & fear of not living up to what he once was is all it is. Axls Ego was & still is the problem, it just manifests it self in slightly different ways now days.

 

 

[Apollo]

3 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

If you want to know why that horrible album was delayed, here is why,

Rather than blaming Ezrin, Baker, Iovine, the tea lady, (etc) why not blame the source of the problem: Axl Rose himself?

Lol. 

Axl was just taking a mental vacation from the tunes to let them age and breath a bit. As he wanted to make sure the songs were perfect. So as they wouldn't damage his and GnR's legacy. Conversely, he must have also felt that having a revolving door of musicians join (and quit or be fired) GnR would be a positive thing for the band's legacy. The more musicians involves the better. 

And he kept those studios rented and equipment rented for one simple reason. Axl is a humanitarian and he wanted to do his part financially to make all those workers/companies made a living. He paid out those millions because of his huge heart. 

55 minutes ago, Good, Fuck'n, Night. said:

You assume Axls not releasing material is his striving for perfection for the sake of guns legacy. I think the weight of expectation & fear of not living up to what he once was is all it is. Axls Ego was & still is the problem, it just manifests it self in slightly different ways now days.

 

 

Unfortunately you are probably closer to the truth than Rov is. 

[wasted]

To me it pertains to the notion that the label wanted the album out asap.

Jimmy called in Ezrin, he would have told him to tell Axl it's fine if they wanted it out. 

With Axl telling Ezrin flat out "I'm ready to mix" and Ezrin tells him no. To their credit they didn't just want it out, they wanted it to be good. Which is fair enough. 

But then people say it was only  Axl delaying the record. It's not really true, it seems to me anyway. 

Axl could have thrown a tantrum and drove over to Jimmy's with a gun but he probably was just disappointed someone he looked up to didn't like his album. 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by wasted

[wasted]

5 hours ago, Apollo said:

Lol. 

Axl was just taking a mental vacation from the tunes to let them age and breath a bit. As he wanted to make sure the songs were perfect. So as they wouldn't damage his and GnR's legacy. Conversely, he must have also felt that having a revolving door of musicians join (and quit or be fired) GnR would be a positive thing for the band's legacy. The more musicians involves the better. 

And he kept those studios rented and equipment rented for one simple reason. Axl is a humanitarian and he wanted to do his part financially to make all those workers/companies made a living. He paid out those millions because of his huge heart. 

Unfortunately you are probably closer to the truth than Rov is. 

Not sure how Ezrin rejecting Axl's album is Axl being a perfectionist. If Axl was ready to mix in 2000, how long did his perfection delay the album? 

Jimmy didn't like the raw sounds that Beavan had in 99. 

Ezrin thought the RTB album was a mess of instrumentation. 

Seems more of a stylistic thing from their side and less Axl's perfectionism.