Respectfully, discuss Axl's personality and its critical impact on GN'R's success

[The Archer]

Axl's persona. It's been one of the striking elements of GN'R's image and success. His personality, mental health and emotional states and different aspects about them, have been much speculated upon in the media, as well as in these boards. This has included discussions on possible psychological issues that he has struggled with as well as personality traits that have helped him and GN'R succeed. What do you think has been the impact of Axl's personality on the success of Guns N' Roses and how does it continue to impact Guns N' Roses success?

Please keep the discussion civil.

Please also be respectful when discussing mental health and those with mental health issues.

Edited June 20, 2016 by The Archer

[The Archer]

Here is the original list of quotes in order, that spurred this discussion from the China Exchange Discussion thread, some of which were moved to the Women's Discussion thread -

On 16 June 2016 at 11:18 PM, The Archer said:

People with bipolar disorder and similar conditions, often end up alienating a lot of people, without intending to, because of their behavioral patterns. That doesn't make them insane or make them liars. Also, having a lot of friends doesn't mean you are more credible, just as having a few friends doesn't mean that your views and behavior are suspect.

@Babooshka's reply -

On 17 June 2016 at 1:16 PM, Babooshka said:

Axl has denied being bipolar. His behaviour and state of mind certainly is questionable, but it would be presumptuous to diagnose the man.

 

On 17 June 2016 at 3:18 PM, The Archer said:

Yes, it would be presumptuous to diagnose him with certainty - his response about being bipolar, from the quotes that were available, were a rejection of a diagnosis and not a refutation. Also, these diagnoses are not often black and white; there are various degrees of mental conditions such as bipolar disorder (Bipolar 1, Bipolar 2, general mood disorder, cyclothymia) as well as frequent co-morbidity with other issues (depression, anxiety disorders, ADHD and others) . Without venturing to diagnose any mental afflictions, it can be said that not all the behaviors that he has displayed can be attributed to 'flaws of character'. If indeed there are issues that we don't know about, much of the frustration about him could be seen in a different light, but there is no sure way of knowing - unless he clarifies these things himself, which is again unlikely.

In any case, my post was a general statement in response to posts about insanity, as well as measuring people's credibility against the number of friends that they have.

@Whiskey Rose's reply -

15 hours ago, Whiskey Rose said:

For anyone interested, it appears, at least to me, that Axl did indeed confirm this in a roundabout way. On his cat Dexter's twitter account, there is a tweet where he prefaces an article with the words "allow me to read from a prepared statement".. the article then goes on to describe certain characteristics of one suffering from this disorder, and the way they view the world. Very, very interesting, and seems to provide some sound explanations for Axl's behaviour and perceptions. Incidentally, it was also on one of his cats accounts where he again, at least in my view, confirmed a chemical peel..alas, not as interesting .  Archer, your posts are always very insightful and respectful, I would love to hear your views on that article and the fact that he posted it.

 

12 hours ago, The Archer said:

@Whiskey Rose Thanks! I'd never noticed those two accounts before. They're fascinating. Some of those tweets are bizarre. Do you think Axl tweets from those himself? Maybe someone else does. Anyhow, both those accounts follow other people, which Axl doesn't, at least not from his official account. Some of the tweets referring to CD and CD II even, GN'R, AC/DC etc are amazing. The GNR - CSI team should really get on those. Dijon has a series of tweets at Liam Gallagher spelling out Axl's full name, one letter at a time . 

Anyhow, back to the serious stuff. You're right - that tweet about the Kirsten Wiig movie is very interesting. But the character in that movie has BPD - Borderline personality disorder, which is distinct from Bi-polar disorder. BPD is one of the issues that I'd considered too, but since the issue of Bipolar had come up in the past, I'd only speculated on the usual afflictions that co-occur along with Bipolar. BPD has characteristics such as intense reactions to people and events, strong likes and dislikes and mood swings, troubled and even stormy relationships with friends and family, seeing things only as black or white, a charismatic but perplexing personality etc., and those make sense. As far as I understand, BPD is quite difficult to treat and unlike Bipolar, mood disorder, anxiety disorders, ADHD etc, medication helps but it doesn't solve or address the mental conflicts involved with the issue. People with BPD need a lot of support and work - extensive therapy, self-assessment, coaching, work with professionals, cognitive behavioral therapy etc., which they are usually resistant to access or accept. But, these interventions help them realize as well as tackle the issues they have. If this is indeed true, perhaps extensive therapy and talk sessions have helped. Who knows, really? We don't.

To me however, if this (or the speculations about any of the other afflictions for that matter) is true, some of the aspects of Axl's life such as his extreme reliance on a trusted circle of close friends and the support system that Team Brazil provide him, make sense. They get a lot of criticism of course, but people probably don't realize how much Axl might need them, just to keep functioning normally, because of possible trust issues that he'd have with other people - particularly if BPD is in play. It would also account for the issues with the Band's former Managers, particularly Azoff and the like, who went behind his back to arrange a reunion etc., and any comments Slash, or Duff made when they left the band to the media or to others, about Axl, would have wounded him deeply - more than it would have other people, and it would have been much, much tougher to let those things go. It would be not entirely surprising that a reunion would have happened only with extensive discussions and heart-to-heart talks, and a lot of trust building. Again, this is speculation, but I think it is only fair that we as fans realize that Axl's motivations and behaviors are not easily predicted or understood, and that there has to be allowance from our side, for whatever he may be going through.

As for the fact that Axl or his alter ego, Dexter (if those accounts are legitimate) posted it, I really don't know what to say except that it could be a safe outlet for him to acknowledge things that he felt he needed to, but doesn't want to directly. Or, maybe he may have watched that movie and it touched him in a deep way, because a lot of those issues and feelings resonated with him. It must be extremely difficult for someone who goes through any of these things to acknowledge them publicly, not just for the personal uncertainty and doubt about these afflictions, but because of the discomfort around other people's perceptions and reactions. In fact, it would be a difficult thing for anyone to even acknowledge these things personally, or even accept them as their own afflictions. If he has these issues, it's all the more important that we as fans be respectful; it must be very difficult to go through all of these things, even with the tremendous amount of talent, wealth and fame that someone like Axl has, and those things probably wouldn't do much to mitigate the difficulty that he has dealing with them.

@Whiskey Rose 's post -

7 hours ago, alfierose said:

Also added from China Exchange thread (post by @Whiskey Rose not me)

 

Yes, those accounts are hidden gold mines aren't they? And if the BPD is indeed what Axl was going through, and he finally, finally received the right therapy, it could well be the catalyst for mending fences with Slash, as he would be able to objectively look at how he was "splitting" and realize it may not have been the true and final way to see things. All in all, I'm inclined to think these accounts are legit;  as you say, it would be a "safe" way for him to acknowledge certain things that he wanted to address.  As for TB and Beta, yes, one can say what they will about their management skills, but she was there for him at a time when he was lost and needed someone to have his back unconditionally...anyone lucky enough to have parents who kept you safe and loved, would understand how important something like this would be, to someone who never had it.

@Frey's post -

10 hours ago, Frey said:

So from this and other threads we've learned:

- Axl is autistic (Asperger's to be specific)

- Axl is bipolar

- But he might also have Borderline Personality disorder

- He also suffers from PTSD

- And also ADHD, OCD, and every other kind of currently popular mental illness/neurological difference

- Axl is also bisexual

- And on his way to hell for playing with those evil satanic people in AC/DC

- In his spare time he pretends to be his cats on twitter

 

It's a miracle the man is able to function at all, going by everyone's opinions and arm chair diagnoses and the things that people assume about him  

 

10 hours ago, The Archer said:

Autism/Asperger's seem unlikely - his early social delinquency as well as the ability to force or charm people to go along with him, point against that. OCD traits manifest themselves on a broad spectrum and are usually ritualistic behaviors, but you don't have to have OCD to have obsessive behavior or an obsessive personality, which people with ADHD, BPD and Bi-Polar Disorder can all have. PTSD too is too broadly thrown around; you can be clinically depressed from a bad patch or event in your life, without having PTSD or be anxious about some specific things, without having generalized anxiety disorder. Also, people with Bipolar/Mood Disorders too can go through long periods of depression. As for his sexuality, Alan Niven is an idiot if he think Axl is bisexual, just because of the clothes he wore. IMO, it's not at all unlikely though that Axl pretends to be his cats on twitter, or that he made a deal with Lucifer to sound the way he did on the Axl/DC tour!

Armchair speculation can be wildly off the mark and unfair too of course, but there's no doubt that Axl is not your regular guy or that he is a very unique individual. Everyone's different, of course, but Axl's atypical behavior or rather, his unexpected and unconventional behavior need to be appreciated or accepted, for what they are - whether or not we agree with them or like them, it's only fair to consider that there are likely more things at play than the normal motivations and behaviors of regular people, even when discounting all the fame and wealth and talent that can get to your head. Unfortunately, most people see only the fame and wealth and talent, and ascribe all the behavioral deviations from the norm, to just those things, or to the arrogance and blindness that they can cause. That's not entirely unfair, because that's all there is to go by, but it is still unfortunate, because we may not have the whole story, and we may never ever have the whole story.

 

[-W.A.R-]

i think he has (had?) borderline personality disorder. if you read the symptoms of BPD, Axl has showed many of them.

as far as being/having Autistic, OCD, PTSD, Bisexual etc theres not any evidence of those and are wild accusations

Edited June 20, 2016 by -W.A.R-

[sanity_lost]

This seems like it will be a fun topic.

Some thoughts: I always thought comments people made about his personality sounded more like BPD rather than Bipolar. They talk about mood swings that seem to happened at the drop of a hat flipping back and forth. While there are fast cycling Bipolar disorders, I don't believe that is how it generally works. On the other hand I have seen articles about C-PSTD which seems to be very similar to BPD. So maybe??

Of course, with that said, this is going off of what people say about him (and a little on what he says about himself) and people like to exaggerate personality quirks. He probably is just a person who has/had a quick temper and is very stubborn.

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by sanity_lost

[MillionsOfSpiders]

I remember reading that Axl had a diagnosis of Bipolar Disorder with evidence of Psychosis, he tried to dismiss it is as him filling in a questionnaire and bingo, they gave him Lithium. I really can't see it being that simple, not even then. 

Bipolar Disorder is difficult enough to cope with on its own, but it's also well known to set off episodes of Psychosis, and that's the more dangerous condition because that's when a person can become delusional, paranoid and even hallucinate. Believing things that are totally unrealistic and impulsive, uncontrollable behaviour are the result. 

Lots of medical advances have been made in recent years for the treatment of mental well being, also the awareness of it. So hopefully, whatever it is that niggles away at him is being properly managed. 

 

 

[Lumikki]

12 hours ago, The Archer said:

Autism/Asperger's seem unlikely - his early social delinquency as well as the ability to force or charm people to go along with him, point against that. OCD traits manifest themselves on a broad spectrum and are usually ritualistic behaviors, but you don't have to have OCD to have obsessive behavior or an obsessive personality, which people with ADHD, BPD and Bi-Polar Disorder can all have. PTSD too is too broadly thrown around; you can be clinically depressed from a bad patch or event in your life, without having PTSD or be anxious about some specific things, without having generalized anxiety disorder. Also, people with Bipolar/Mood Disorders too can go through long periods of depression. As for his sexuality, Alan Niven is an idiot if he think Axl is bisexual, just because of the clothes he wore. IMO, it's not at all unlikely though that Axl pretends to be his cats on twitter, or that he made a deal with Lucifer to sound the way he did on the Axl/DC tour!

Armchair speculation can be wildly off the mark and unfair too of course, but there's no doubt that Axl is not your regular guy or that he is a very unique individual. Everyone's different, of course, but Axl's atypical behavior or rather, his unexpected and unconventional behavior need to be appreciated or accepted, for what they are - whether or not we agree with them or like them, it's only fair to consider that there are likely more things at play than the normal motivations and behaviors of regular people, even when discounting all the fame and wealth and talent that can get to your head. Unfortunately, most people see only the fame and wealth and talent, and ascribe all the behavioral deviations from the norm, to just those things, or to the arrogance and blindness that they can cause. That's not entirely unfair, because that's all there is to go by, but it is still unfortunate, because we may not have the whole story, and we may never ever have the whole story.

10 hours ago, -W.A.R- said:

i think he has (had?) borderline personality disorder. if you read the symptoms of BPD, Axl has showed many of them.

as far as being/having Autistic, OCD, PTSD, Bisexual etc theres not any evidence of those and are wild accusations

 

The thing with Axl is that we know at once so many little tidbits about him and his life, and also nothing at all. This is probably why there are so many widely different opinions on the subject of his mental health and why it keeps getting discussed endlessly in numerous threads. And why I think you could technically make an argument for nearly all the items in Frey's post (except the plain ridiculous ones like the EVIL ACDC thing )

Let's take the autism thing, for example: I actually more or less agree with you and am not really convinced by Alan Niven's claim of Axl being misdiagnosed and him actually having Asperger's (a lot of what we know about Axl -e.g. the points that @The Archer mentioned- doesn't really fit with that imo), but you could make a case  for it, if you wanted to:

The kind of behavior that Slash refers to as Axl's "brutal honesty" and which constantly causes drama on this forum (e.g. various things Axl said during the China Exchange interview- calling Slash a liar, saying he would have rather done other things than GnR, etc) might actually be a lack of social graces/awareness. Most people seem to think these things are inappropriate to say or think it's at least bad business sense to say stuff like that shortly before the reunion tour. But Axl doesn't seem to realize that or care.

Axl also has a bit of a tendency to talk about really personal stuff to random strangers like fans, journalists or an entire crowd while on stage. Could also be construed as an issue with social boundaries and awareness.

Obsessive behavior and high levels of anxiety are very common (or even defining) with Asperger's (and autism spectrum disorders in general) too, so these tendencies of Axl could just as easily be explained with Asperger's as with BPD, etc.

According to his teachers, Axl was a bright and gifted kid who would not stop talking about an idea he was obsessed with and annoyed everyone around him with it. And according to Slash and Duff he still loves to talk and go on endless rambles, and once he gets started on something it will be a looong time before he's done. Very similar to the Aspie kids I grew up with/still know.

There are a lot of examples of Axl seemingly being callous and not realizing how his actions affect those around him (Slash mentioned this issue specifically once when talking about Axl), yet he doesn't seem to do that on purpose and it's not like he suffers from a general lack of empathy or some form of antisocial personality disorder (at least I really don't think so). Axl actually seems perfectly capable of empathy and cares a lot for the people he loves. And he shows it too, but with the examples we know of, it's usually a case of somebody very obviously being in a bad situation (Duff and Steven in hospital, Slash in prison, Del in the middle of riots, etc). With less clear-cut and obvious situations, he might have trouble seeing how other people might perceive things differently than him or even suffer because of his own actions.

Axl also seems to have melt-downs sometimes when he gets too over-whelmed with things.

Izzy once said Axl had a really hard time relating to other people, that he does not think like "normal" people.

You could even push this exercise to even more ridiculous lengths and look at how Axl, like many people on the autistic spectrum, has trouble with certain food textures. He once said he "can't deal with corn" and complained about how it's everywhere in Europe, even on pizza. But he also said he actually likes corn on the cob, it's only when the grains of corn are loose and spread all over the place that he's got a problem with it. Similarly, he also dislikes peas and lentils, iirc. Not a fan of tiny, pebbly food apparently

And I could go on. If you really want to, you can literally find evidence for any of the issues people have speculated about Axl dealing with. Want some evidence for ADHD? We just discussed some quotes by Axl's school teachers in the women's thread that made it sound like he was your typical ADHD child in school. PTSD? I remember I've had some quite interesting discussions about this with @stella and some other people in another thread. Viewed from that angle, autistic melt-downs can suddenly be seen as trauma reactions / flashbacks. And honestly, I don't think it's that far-fetched actually, at least in his younger years. Axl's behavior was very similar to what I know foster parents/therapeutic parents taking care of severly traumatized children and young adults have to deal with.

All of this is why I don't feel too comfortable making any too finite sounding statements or guesses about what Axl might dealing with. I think despite everything we know about him, we just don't have enough information. The only thing that can be said for certain imo is that Axl's behavior is pretty atypical in many aspects and there is most likely something going on with him that most "regular" people don't have to deal with. Which is also why I agree with @The Archer in thinking that these issues should be taken into consideration more when discussing the things Axl does or says. Fame and money having gotten to his head or him just being an asshole is the common perception of him that most people (especially in the general public) seem to have, but I have a really hard time buying that.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Lumikki

[Frey]

Oh good, I see my post is not the first post in this thread anymore  I just came here to edit it and change it into something more appropriate, since my post felt a bit too flippant as the opener of this thread. Thanks to whoever changed that 

12 hours ago, sanity_lost said:

This seems like it will be a fun topic.

Some thoughts: I always thought comments people made about his personality sounded more like BPD rather than Bipolar. They talk about mood swings that seem to happened at the drop of a hat flipping back and forth. While there are fast cycling Bipolar disorders, I don't believe that is how it generally works. On the other hand I have seen articles about C-PSTD which seems to be very similar to BPD. So maybe??

Of course, with that said, this is going off of what people say about him (and a little on what he says about himself) and people like to exaggerate personality quirks. He probably is just a person who has/had a quick temper and is very stubborn.

What is "C-PTSD"? Like I get the PTSD part, but what does the C stand for?

[Babooshka]

I strongly suspect that Axl experiences psychosis, which can be a component of a number of conditions. There are certain things about his behaviour that is very reminiscent of someone with that illness. Including the issues with medication and the way people around him behave. 

Bipolar, BPD and psychosis all overlap, so it can be difficult for a person to get a diagnoses. Things can also change over time, or a person may have co-morbid conditions as @The Archer has explained before. But regardless, at one point Axl must have been presenting symptoms that fit the criteria of bipolar, so at the very least, I don't think it's inappropriate to say he has a mental health issue. Which must be a factor in his relationships and with Guns.

[sanity_lost]

3 hours ago, Frey said:

What is "C-PTSD"? Like I get the PTSD part, but what does the C stand for?

Complex PTSD. I don't think it has actually been separated out from PTSD in the DSM though many professionals think it should be (and, of course, others disagree). Sometime PTSD is broken out as PTSD Type I trauma (the single traumatic event) and PTSD Type II trauma (a prolonged or a chronic exposure to a certain trauma). C-PTSD is Type II trauma.

Admittedly, it has been quite a while since I have read up on this stuff and I don't trust my memory at all. 

Edited June 20, 2016 by sanity_lost

[action]

Axl's personality was instrumental in GNR's success as much as it was in their downfall. He's the one that brought the "danger" to the band. A great band isn't defined just by their music, but by the whole package. Drama, incidents, ... it's all part of it. Morrisson flashing his dick on stage (even if that turned out to be made up), ozzy biting off the head of a bat, led zeppelin wrecking hotel rooms... it all adds a story to the band.

Count in the fact that people like to identify with the "bad guy" and you have a recipe for success.

A rock n roll band without all of that would be a bit boring wouldn't it? Chinese democracy partly suffered from being not dangerous enough. Too little swearing for my liking.

Nonetheless, it's a good thing that he moderated a bit since then. I can't imagine for example the reunion shows to succeed with his old behavior of walking off the stage.