janrichmond Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 19 minutes ago, thunderram said: Sorry, but I find it laughable when fans or ham and egger guitarists critique the work of a world class virtuoso such as Slash. It's akin to the average college student critiquing an elite mathematician on how he arrived at proving an advanced theorem. The ham and egger can't come close to performing at the same level, yet somehow feels worthy of critiquing. These guys create new music for a living and make a lot of $$ doing it because they are among the very best at it. We fans don't. Enough said. Agreed (dunno what a ham and egger is though) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, thunderram said: You can have an opinion on whether you like the finished product or not. But critiquing the artistic process from someone that is on a level you'll never be at is ridiculous. It's like those sports guys that criticize and belittle the QB of their favorite team for the mistakes he makes when they couldn't come close to performing any better. It's hypocritical and downright sad. As a fan, you can not like the result -- but to second guess the artist for doing what they felt was right is an altogether different thing. More times than not, the choices they make do end up working out. That's why they are where they are and doing what they do. Absurd. Using that philosophy there would be no third party criticism whatsoever be that film, book or album reviews (et al), and we would all just wander through life devoid of anything interesting to say. All music magazines, blogs and websites would have to immediately pack their bags! 2 minutes ago, janrichmond said: Agreed (dunno what a ham and egger is though) Boxing slang for a journeyman boxer I believe. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passenger57 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 I wonder if Slash had already played on early incarnations of the CD songs. I think I read somewhere he recorded the solo for 'This I love' way before the band broke up. I think it's really cool of Duff and Slash to play those songs, really takes them to another level and you can tell how much it means to Axl. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoundOfAGun Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) 11 minutes ago, thunderram said: You can have an opinion on whether you like the finished product or not. But critiquing the artistic process from someone that is on a level you'll never be at is ridiculous. It's like those sports guys that criticize and belittle the QB of their favorite team for the mistakes he makes when they couldn't come close to performing any better. It's hypocritical and downright sad. As a fan, you can not like the result -- but to second guess the artist for doing what they felt was right is an altogether different thing. More times than not, the choices they make do end up working out. That's why they are where they are and doing what they do. In what world can I not make an observation about the way my favourite guitarist is playing, regardless of skill on my part? To say that I am only entitled to comment on whether I like it or not because I do not play to the standard of Slash is just a bizzare statement. I stand by what I said and believe he can do better. I can second guess whoever I want to and will continue to do so, regardless of your apparent butthurt at me doing it. Edited July 17, 2016 by SoundOfAGun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BadApples87 Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 Slash - It's 5 o clock, Slash self titled, VR Contraband, Slash A.L. are all better than CD. Duff believe in me is as good as CD. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderram Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 5 minutes ago, janrichmond said: Agreed (dunno what a ham and egger is though) According to quick google search: an ordinary person of little consequence. 3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Absurd. Using that philosophy there would be no third party criticism whatsoever be that film, book or album reviews (et al), and we would all just wander through life devoid of anything interesting to say. All music magazines, blogs and websites would have to immediately pack their bags! Boxing slang for a journeyman boxer I believe. Absurd right back at you As I said, there's a difference in having an opinion on whether you personally enjoy the finished product or not and critiquing how the artist creates their work -- especially when you don't have the ability to do what they do. In my restaurant analogy above, it's ok to go to said restaurant and decide that you don't like it then never return. Or even write an opinion piece to say that you didn't like it. But to criticize the chef for the artistic decisions he/she made in creating their work when they are running a very successful business is very shortsighted and hypocritical. What they have done and continue to do is working for the masses and proving highly successful. You, on the other hand, aren't doing it more successfully. To pose another hypothetical, if a vocalist or guitarist from a band much less accomplished than Guns N' Roses went on record critiquing the choices AXL and SLASH made on the AFD album --- would they hold any credibility to you? Or would they come across as ridiculous? If Jimmy Page criticizes it, you probably listen even if you don't agree. But if CC Deville does it, you laugh your ass off and you know it. In this case, we're talking about people well below CC Deville's stature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 1 minute ago, thunderram said: According to quick google search: an ordinary person of little consequence. Absurd right back at you As I said, there's a difference in having an opinion on whether you personally enjoy the finished product or not and critiquing how the artist creates their work -- especially when you don't have the ability to do what they do. In my restaurant analogy above, it's ok to go to said restaurant and decide that you don't like it then never return. Or even write an opinion piece to say that you didn't like it. But to criticize the chef for the artistic decisions he/she made in creating their work when they are running a very successful business is very shortsighted and hypocritical. What they have done and continue to do is working for the masses and proving highly successful. You, on the other hand, aren't doing it more successfully. To pose another hypothetical, if a vocalist or guitarist from a band much less accomplished than Guns N' Roses went on record critiquing the choices AXL and SLASH made on the AFD album --- would they hold any credibility to you? Or would they come across as ridiculous? If Jimmy Page criticizes it, you probably listen even if you don't agree. But if CC Deville does it, you laugh your ass off and you know it. In this case, we're talking about people well below CC Deville's stature. I do not agree in the slightest. If a vocalist or guitarist critiqued the methodology behind the Appetite album, that is their critique to make. It might be worth a rebuttal but I'm certainly not going to merely dismiss it because that person's career does not resemble Axl and Slash's. You say it is perfectly fine to dislike a work but often the reasons why you dislike a work are due to decisions made during the actual creative process. It is perfectly valid for anybody to raise these issues. Appetite is generally an excellent production so it is difficult to make your hypothetical question work but it works far better for the Illusions and Chinese Democracy, albums flawed through poor creative decision making. This is a common consensus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderram Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 16 minutes ago, SoundOfAGun said: In what world can I not make an observation about the way my favourite guitarist is playing, regardless of skill on my part? To say that I am only entitled to comment on whether I like it or not because I do not play to the standard of Slash is just a bizzare statement. I stand by what I said and believe he can do better. I can second guess whoever I want to and will continue to do so, regardless of your apparent butthurt at me doing it. Anybody can do whatever they want. Doesn't validate the behavior though. What's oddly funny is, I'm doing to you what you did to Slash yet you aren't handling the criticism too well (really defensive). If you have the right to dish it out, you have the right to receive it in return too. The big different is, of course, I'm not critiquing the artistic decisions of a highly successful and world class musician. Just a fan that somehow believes his ideas are better. While those ideas may work better for YOU, they don't necessarily work better for Slash or the majority of his fan base. Perhaps you should think about putting your money where your mouth is and go make or produce a record using you ideas. If/when you make it to the top and are more successful than Slash, you can say "I told you this would work better". But right now you're doing nothing more than side seat driving next to Lewis Hamilton or Jimmy Johnson as if you could drive the car faster and better. When you can't expertly control a car at 200+MPH in heavy traffic, you shouldn't try to tell the proven driver how to run their lines. Same logic applies here. But have fun trying to convince me (and others) otherwise. I've clearly made the point and am not going to go in circles arguing semantics or repeating thus beating the horse to death and further hijacking this thread. I simply said that I find the tactic "laughable" and provided numerous reasons and examples why. You and Diesel and probably a few others don't agree. There are greater tragedies in the world. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SurfsUp Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 BRING BACK '02 "THE BLUES" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunderram Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) 52 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I do not agree in the slightest. Appetite is generally an excellent production so it is difficult to make your hypothetical question work but it works far better for the Illusions and Chinese Democracy, albums flawed through poor creative decision making. This is a common consensus. And up to this point in time, I thought you agreed with me With regard to your "common consensus" comment, what do you base it upon? Show me the proof. It could easily be argued that common consensus is quite the opposite. The album sales for both UYI and CD could be used in support of this. "Flawed albums through poor decision making" don't typically sell too well, do they? For every person on this website -- or any other forum -- that says one thing, you can easily find another that says the opposite. Where is the common consensus coming from? Edited July 17, 2016 by thunderram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoundOfAGun Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 17 minutes ago, thunderram said: Anybody can do whatever they want. Doesn't validate the behavior though. What's oddly funny is, I'm doing to you what you did to Slash yet you aren't handling the criticism too well (really defensive). If you have the right to dish it out, you have the right to receive it in return too. The big different is, of course, I'm not critiquing the artistic decisions of a highly successful and world class musician. Just a fan that somehow believes his ideas are better. While those ideas may work better for YOU, they don't necessarily work better for Slash or the majority of his fan base. Perhaps you should think about putting your money where your mouth is and go make or produce a record using you ideas. If/when you make it to the top and are more successful than Slash, you can say "I told you this would work better". But right now you're doing nothing more than side seat driving next to Lewis Hamilton or Jimmy Johnson as if you could drive the car faster and better. When you can't expertly control a car at 200+MPH in heavy traffic, you shouldn't try to tell the proven driver how to run their lines. Same logic applies here. But have fun trying to convince me (and others) otherwise. I've clearly made the point and am not going to go in circles arguing semantics or repeating thus beating the horse to death and further hijacking this thread. I simply said that I find the tactic "laughable" and provided numerous reasons and examples why. You and Diesel and probably a few others don't agree. There are greater tragedies in the world. Fair enough, we can agree to disagree. I'm pleased you had a laugh along the way; at least a little joy was spread tonight. Enjoy your evening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 22 minutes ago, thunderram said: And up to this point in time, I thought you agreed with me With regard to your "common consensus" comment, what do you base it upon? Show me the proof. It could easily be argued that common consensus is quite the opposite. The album sales for both UYI and CD could be used in support of this. "Flawed albums through poor decision making" don't typically sell too well, do they? For every person on this website -- or any other forum -- that says one thing, you can easily find another that says the opposite. Where is the common consensus coming from? Did you need read the reviews of Illusion when it was released? ''Overproduced'' and ''it should have been one album'' tended to be the prevalent terms. I'm not opening the can of worms about Chinese's sales statistic needless to say that that album sold under par and obtained a mixed reception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkarmy Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 I think its slash's way of extending courtesy to Axl by acknowledging what Axl worked a long time on and makes him happy. Hopefully with the intention of wanting to work with Axl on new music. This tour is great, don't get me wrong but I'd much rather have new music personally Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigpoop Posted July 17, 2016 Share Posted July 17, 2016 It's funny how the "you're not qualified to criticize Slash" people don't realize that by their logic they're not qualified to say he's great. How would ham n eggers like them know what a virtuoso is? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killuridols Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 "Overproduced" and "should have been one album" from the critics at the time is so much 25 years later the albums are classic now, sold millions, contain many of the GNR now classic radio hit songs that all the wannabe fans are waiting to listen in these shows and last but not least, in 2016, no one gives a fuck about albums anymore If critics could only for see the future... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom-Ass Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 5 hours ago, BadApples87 said: Slash - It's 5 o clock, Slash self titled, VR Contraband, Slash A.L. are all better than CD. Duff believe in me is as good as CD. Believe In Me is better than CD too.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanity_lost Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 I decided I want to play the "Why is Slash playing CD songs" game that implies that Slash must hate all that is CD. Reasons I can think of off the top of my head: Axl (or someone else in his camp) has blackmail on him and is forcing him to play the songs or else Slash is so far into debt that his only option to get out of debt is this tour and so Axl is forcing him to play the songs or not do the tour Slash will do anything to be back in Guns again (ego, nostalgia, $$$, possessiveness, pick your reason) even play a song he despises because Axl won't let him back in otherwise Axl is compensating Slash in some way that makes him want to play the songs (use your imagination) He wants to put is own stamp on songs that are under the GNR name (a type of possessiveness) Slash wants to be on Axl's good side (a mercenary take) Slash wants to play them to make Axl happy (an "ah, how sweet" take) As a bonus I'll add one more reason: He likes the songs (terrifying thought, I know) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Estranged Reality Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 On 7/16/2016 at 1:29 PM, LADoll77 said: it is ironic that Slash is playing Sorry. a diss track about him. Axl said at a show that it wasn't actually about Slash, which raises the question of who the song actually is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RONIN Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Pay attention to the first minute when a fan yells "HOMO! He's been screwing you for 10 fucking years!" now...i was uh...perusing)...i was reading about my integrity. cause that's whaat i'm know for, i guess. selling out my integrity. that's why i'm here with you tonight, cause i just don't give a fuck. yea that's why we worked real hard at this, that's why these guys work real hard that being in a bad that tehy can get abuse for. cause 'they're the guys stopping the old band from getting together!'. it's horse shit! not trying to bum anyone out. i was thinkin about it. i'm pretty blunt, so people get really pissed, and i haven't done a lotta talkin on this tour and i'll shut up real soon, don't worry. i've tried acting nice, and that always just ends up fuckin me right up the ass. they take advantage of that 'oh Axl said somethin nice, how can we use that to our advantage.' the truth is, they (Slash and co) didn't wanna be here for you at this level, they don't wanna take it farther. that's their business, but not at my expense, or yours! you've be played, you've be lied to, you've been used, you've been minipulated so that they can ride around in limos and jam with Snoop Dog or whoever-the-fuck, i don't care, that's their business, but they shouldn't do it at your expense or mine. so as soon as i say this, it'll be on an MP3 someone'll transcribe it and the next person will say 'CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT AXL SAID THIS I MEAN, MY GOD, I MEAN, HE HASN'T PUT OUT A RECORD, I DON'T KNOW WHY HE WOULD SAY THAT, WHO DOES HE THINK HE IS, THAT'S NOT VERY NICE! THE OTHER GUYS, THEY'VE GOTTEN OVER IT AND THEY'RE HIS FRIEND NOW AND THEY'RE WILLING TO BE HIS FRIEND AND HE JUST NEEDS TO GROW UP.' I'm sorry, i'm just a bit more blunt. Slash may sound like the De La Hoya, but he's really the fuckin' Vargas, that's how it is. and just because you got bunch of guys agreeing...doesn't mean shit. the truth is that, they're a bunch of bad cops, and i'm the fuckin serpico, and they can suck my dick. 'YOU KNOW WITHOUT AXL AND SLASH, YOU WOULDN'T HAVE NOVEMBER RAIN AND ESTRANGED!' well, you don't know what the fuck i went through to play those songs and you don't know about the fight we had at Panam studios because Duff and Slash came to be like 'we're not gonna do that song, nope not gonna do it, not gonna do it'. but i wanna do it, we'll do it right now, this song's called Patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoundOfAGun Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 4 hours ago, bigpoop said: It's funny how the "you're not qualified to criticize Slash" people don't realize that by their logic they're not qualified to say he's great. How would ham n eggers like them know what a virtuoso is? I think you're OK to say he is great, you just can't say anything negative about an "artistic decision" (noodling) in any detailed capacity unless you are also a world class famous guitarist. Sound logic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 4 hours ago, killuridols said: "Overproduced" and "should have been one album" from the critics at the time is so much 25 years later the albums are classic now, sold millions, contain many of the GNR now classic radio hit songs that all the wannabe fans are waiting to listen in these shows and last but not least, in 2016, no one gives a fuck about albums anymore If critics could only for see the future... I do and I know quite a few people who do also. In fact all you have to do to ascertain the truth of this is enter the My World forum and look at a discussion called ''Last full album you listened to'' - it is fairly active. Also, vinyl is going through something of a renaissance right now. I rarely see the Illusions in those top 100 albums lists, as opposed the Appetite which is usually in the top fifty, so considering them 'classic' is a bit of a stretch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killuridols Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 8 hours ago, DieselDaisy said: I do and I know quite a few people who do also. In fact all you have to do to ascertain the truth of this is enter the My World forum and look at a discussion called ''Last full album you listened to'' - it is fairly active. Also, vinyl is going through something of a renaissance right now. I rarely see the Illusions in those top 100 albums lists, as opposed the Appetite which is usually in the top fifty, so considering them 'classic' is a bit of a stretch. A few people you know and a few people I may know are not ruling the world of music business. The real sad truth is that albums don't matter anymore. People don't buy complete albums. People don't buy CD's. People don't even have a device where to play CD's. What people have now are smartphones and that's where they listen to their music. That is millions of people around the world. Guns N' Roses will not sell millions of albums in 2016 even if they'd write the new November Rain of the decade. The Illusions sold millions in the gold era of albums and they contain some of the biggest radio hits of GN'R so they are heading to become classic, although probably won't get there too fast because of the whole album massacre I was talking about before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 10 minutes ago, killuridols said: A few people you know and a few people I may know are not ruling the world of music business. The real sad truth is that albums don't matter anymore. People don't buy complete albums. People don't buy CD's. People don't even have a device where to play CD's. What people have now are smartphones and that's where they listen to their music. That is millions of people around the world. Guns N' Roses will not sell millions of albums in 2016 even if they'd write the new November Rain of the decade. The Illusions sold millions in the gold era of albums and they contain some of the biggest radio hits of GN'R so they are heading to become classic, although probably won't get there too fast because of the whole album massacre I was talking about before Yet Neil Young puts out an album a year. Slash did similar before this hybrid charade. Motorhead put albums out yearly. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
janrichmond Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 Here in the UK there is a MASSIVE market for vinyl, it's been that way for a few years and growing more and more popular. Yes a lot of people download their music but a lot of those people also buy the hard copy to keep too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted July 18, 2016 Share Posted July 18, 2016 2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Yet Neil Young puts out an album a year. Slash did similar before this hybrid charade. Motorhead put albums out yearly. It's sort of worrying when the entire impetus for musicians to put out music is money. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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