Popular Post JustanUrchin Posted August 26, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted August 26, 2016 Adler brings the party feel—that slightly behind-the-time bounce and groove—to the sleazy guitars, iconic solos and snarling lyrics. Four Adler replacements later, the drumming fails to replicate his feel. But Adler’s uniquely stylistic groove is not the topic of this thread. His return to the band is. How did this notorious but beloved fiend, 26 years after being fired, retake the Gn’R stage and increase the volume to 11 in already rockin’ American stadiums? Adler has sued (and settled with) the band and has openly and routinely criticized S/D/A, including as late as November 2015. Axl has been adamant that he would never work with Adler again, and even claimed that his drumming was the weak link on AFD. So, what the hell is Adler doing taking over the kit in 2016…and acting like he owns the stage? And why on earth would Axl leap up the riser to Adler in Cincy as if he were shot out of a cannon? Background. Adler forfeited his equity share in the Gn’R p’ship in ‘90, and was subsequently fired when he failed to adhere to the terms of a probationary contract. Izzy, who sold his equity share in ‘91, later acknowledged that replacing Adler with Sorum altered the band’s sound from no frills rock to metal. Said change was, "a big musical difference. Our songs were written with Steve playing the drums and his sense of swing was the push and pull that give the songs their feel. When that was gone, it was just unbelievable, weird. Nothing worked.” Slash listed just three reasons in his autobio for not continuing on with Duff and Axl, one of which was “losing Izzy and Steven, who were such an integral part of the band’s sound and personality [and] without them, the band no longer had its original chemistry.” Cincy, 2016. The already rockin’ stadium erupts when Adler appears. Again in Nashville. And again in L.A. While I couldn’t identify Adler’s second or third replacements in a police line-up and would enjoy it if his fourth replacement went the way of the seven replacement guitarists, what accounts for Adler’s appearances? Let’s list publicly known, biz-related recent facts—almost all of which understandably seem to have been lost in this summer’s excitement. 1. On July 7, 2016, a writer who interviewed Duff the day prior, wrote that the “business kept the band together even when they were apart,” and that “they stayed in touch thanks to their shared interest in merchandise and music royalties.” Duff, moreover, “called the Gn’R reunion a mutual decision.” 2. On July 26, 2016, Opie Skjerseth stated that in regards to S/D/A, “all three of them” decided on touring matters. Staging is enormous overhead. This critical biz decision would not have been made collectively if it weren’t a biz entity with dispersed authority on decision-making. 3. At the Troubadour show, Axl commented that Duff chose the opening songs ordering. That order has not changed throughout the summer. 4. Axl has been punctual in taking the stage this spring/summer with both Gn’R and AC/DC, and has even taken the stage early. Slash’s first of three reasons in his autobio for not continuing on in Gn’R was Axl’s “constant disrespect for all involved by going on late for no good reason night after night after night.” 5. On the LiveNation tour and the AC/DC tour, all start times are standard show times not Axl 10 p.m.-1 a.m. start times. Hell, it’s still been daylight at the start of some shows. 6. Gn’R has been near perfect respecting noise curfew ordinances this summer and has even pushed up start times to avoid fines and overages as well as cutting songs from the set when Kravitz exceeded his time allotment. Why would, at 54, Axl suddenly be concerned with fines and overages unless Slash and Duff’s (and LiveNation) lawyers demanded specific division of loss terms whereby Axl is solely liable for damages, fines, crew overages, etc.? 7. Axl has been rehearsing with both Gn’R and AC/DC. At 54, did Axl suddenly have an epiphany about the importance of rehearsing in not one but two bands or is he being required by two separate biz entities to be a professional and rehearse? 8. In an Eddie Trunk interview less than five months prior to the Troubadour show, Adler openly criticized S/D/A. Axl apologists routinely ripped Adler while declaring that he would n-e-v-e-r take part in the reunion because he had the supposed audacity to speak on the matter. These same types also conflated (and falsely granted Axl) the judicial and agency powers of a gag order with private, contractual NDAs. 9. At the 2016 China Exchange, Axl admitted that Izzy referred to him as the “Ayatollah” and prefaced an answer to a question with “speaking as a dictator.” Slash repeated at least twice in his autobio that Izzy did not tolerate being “dictated to.” 10. At the China Exchange, Axl admitted that he didn’t tell Slash how to play ChiDem songs and, “had no idea how they were going to sound.” Axl has released 15 original songs in 25 years and has been the target of endless public ridicule because of the Howard Hughes circus that produced those 15 songs. What would cause Axl, a notorious control enthusiast, to not even discuss with Slash how he would play his solo band’s only songs and admit that he “had no idea how they were going to sound?” 11. Anyone with functioning ears can hear that Slash and Duff rewrote the intro to “Better” and that Slash gutted the “TIL” solo as recorded. These are two of the three ChiDem staples on the 2016 tour. Imagine if one of Slash’s revolving-door replacements gutted the “SCOM” solo. What accounts for Slash trashing what he doesn’t like on the ChiDem stuff and playing the solos how he pleases? Has he even played the “TIL” solo the same way twice? 12. At the China Exchange, Axl stated that, “and I just, I do want to put out more music with Guns n’ Roses. And I don’t know if that has to do with Slash or not but underneath the Guns n’ Roses thing [brand], and, um, if he and I write something or he wants to play on something that we have, it’s like that would be great.” Slash holds the keys while Axl calls shotgun—Slash determines if and when he’ll create new tunes and whether he wants to work up any prior ideas. Gn’R plus Sorum, interestingly, recorded a song called “Shotgun Blues.” 13. At the China Exchange, Axl stated that, “part of me feels like I’m happy that I didn’t write the things [lyrics] a year ago to something because I feel like what I’m gonna go at now will be stronger.” If the decade-old mythical ‘vault’ of ‘CD2’ songs were going to be released (to a second commercial suicide), why would Axl be “happy” that he didn’t write lyrics because whatever created now will “be stronger?” 14. At the China Exchange, Axl stated that, “This isn’t, the Guns n’ Roses reunion isn’t just kind of like by happenchance or whatever...chance…or whatever.” It is a reunion of the three Gn’R partners, not that we needed Axl to confirm this. This list of known facts retrospectively outlines how the partners reunited after negotiating terms that previously caused Slash and Duff’s (and even Izzy’s) departure from the band. Conclusions. Slash is doing whatever the hell he wants with the solos in the few ChiDem songs they are playing because he is a living guitar legend. Taking the stage with a living guitar legend also apparently works miracles on a singer’s vocal chords. How biz decision-making between S/D/A is assigned, and whether it is weighted and to what percentage it is weighted on biz and creative matters, will likely never be disclosed. But the ample recent evidence, taken as a whole, answers repeated references in other threads: it is Slash, Duff and Axl’s band. As it should be, and as fans demanded. With this leg concluded, will S/D/A revisit the Izzy negotiation and make him an acceptable offer or negotiate a resolution to a presumed counteroffer? Signing a NDA to sit at the table can be circumvented to an extent—like posting pointed lyrical Twitter snippets and rapidly releasing F.P. Money—recorded with the drummer that he says irreparably damaged the sound of Gn’R, so much so that “nothing worked” and the change was “unbelievable, weird.” Money. S/D/A are bathing in it now. Adler has stormed the Gn’R stage three times this summer—and banging hell out of the drums over Axl’s shoulder—because Gn’R is again a biz entity with collective decision-making, weighted or otherwise. Stevie was publicly criticizing S/D/A just months prior to the April shows and now he’s owning the stage? Axl either consented to Slash’s (and/or Duff’s) decision to include Adler or was overruled, but given Axl’s childlike joy bounding up the riser in Cincy, I’d hope the former. And Slash, the epitome of rocker cool, openly grinning while playing with Adler on stage and then hugging him like a brother? It seems that we sometimes can correct life’s mistakes. My goal was to create, in one place, a factual, numbered list on the subject as it stands present-day. It prevents cherry-picking facts, reliance upon now irrelevant facts, and regurgitating false narratives—myths. It’s your turn. Are there other publicly known recent facts that point directly to the structure of the current biz relationship between S/D/A? A biz entity like a GP, LP, or LLP, need only disclose and register general, template-like information but the terms of a PA are often on public display. It is, after all, a biz operating in, and dependent upon, the public realm. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdxballer Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 I'm sure each individual has there own entity that owns the shares in GN'R. I don't think that really matters much. The fact is they are back together and surprising everyone with the shows they are putting on, the puncuality, and the togetherness. I was at Dodgers stadium on 8/19 and it seems like the show kept getting better even after Adler was done. At one point i was asking myself if Axl is on meds because he is so happy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoSoRose Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 Tldr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) I agree with the general idea and the conclusion about the reunion, i.e. that it's a partnership and that the decisions are being made collectively by the partners, but I have some objections about the factual data the argumentation relies on, specifically statements in books, interviews, etc and in particular the ones made before the reunion. For example: - I would take some things Slash said in his book with a grain of salt. Autobiographies/memoirs are not considered very credible sources, and there are reasons for it apart from given subjectivity and the possibility of bad/unconsciously selective memory or even of conscious lying. A memoir, especially when written long time after the events narrated in it occurred, reflects more the writer's current state of mind and perspective of said events than his/her feelings and thoughts when he was originally in that situation; it's not something that is done consciously, it's a natural process of memory. The two of the three reasons Slash presented for the breakup (Izzy-less and Steven-less band and Axl's punctuality issue) are not so convincing to me. Slash left in 1996, Steven and Izzy had left in 1990 and 1991 respectively. In the meantime, a few little things had happened, all of which Slash was a part of: album recordings and releases, a 2 year world tour during which he endured Axl's constant lateness, and an ill-fated attempt to record a new album; moreover, the time Slash left, the prospect of a tour was distant and uncertain, hence Axl being late on stage wasn't an immediate issue to think of and worry about. In interviews before and after the breakup, Slash had emphasized artistic differences (the ballads and Axl's fondness of grunge and industrial rock) as a main cause of tension between Axl and him, along with Axl's control game, and as a reason he eventually left. This factor is downplayed in the book; he only mentions his resentment of keyboard effects and Pro Tools, but he finally states that he would have been open to do even industrial, if the three reasons hadn't existed. In contrast, Izzy's actions were consistent with his stated reasons for leaving. He didn't agree with Axl's grandiose ideas, so he didn't do overdubs and he didn't participate in the videos; he couldn't take the drama with Axl's tantrums and lateness as well as Slash's and Duff's drug habit and drunkenness, so he left them in the middle of the tour. And he has been consistent up to this day. - The "Ayatollah" bit. Excerpts from that interview, which isn't to be taken seriously in any way, can be found in Stephen Davis's book "Watch You Bleed: The Saga of Guns N' Roses" (a shitty book other than that). It was a hilarious early interview (in fact, probably the first they ever did) with a local LA magazine in 1986, during most of which they were acting like cartoon characters, teasing one another and trying to embarrass the interviewer and get on her nerves (they apparently were high and/or drunk). There's also a small inaccuracy: it was Slash who had called Axl "Ayatollah", not Izzy (EDIT: it's not important if it was Izzy or Slash). As for why Axl has referenced (at least twice) this ridiculous comment from a forgotten interview as the beginning for him being considered a "dictator", I guess it's because he is Axl and his mind works in strange ways Edited August 27, 2016 by Blackstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babooshka Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 In the China interview Axl said it was Izzy who first said the Ayatollah comment, and then it stuck with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) On 26/08/2016 at 2:10 AM, Babooshka said: In the China interview Axl said it was Izzy who first said the Ayatollah comment, and then it stuck with him. I know. Apparently Axl has confused it. Excerpts from that interview (from Davis's book): In early April 1986, Music Connection, the L.A. weekly magazine, sent reporter Karen Burch to interview Guns. The band had been promised the cover of the magazine. (...) She found them still living at Vicky’s place, amid wall-to-wall amps, guitars everywhere, brimming ashtrays, garbage. (...) Izzy would break in with sarcastic asides, cynical jokes, and open hostility. He would deflect her questions with: “Ask another,” “We don’t care about that,” “That’s a stupid question,” “No one gives a fuck about that,” “Next,” “Fuck you and your magazine.” (...) She started by asking their ages, and it went downhill from there. AXL: “Sure, we’ll reveal our ages.” DUFF: “Yeah, we don’t care. I’m nineteen.” AXL: “I’m twenty-four.” SLASH: “No, Duff is twenty-two and I’m nineteen.” IZZY: “This really does not fucking matter.” SLASH: “Just fucking tell her.” IZZY: “Axl isn’t really twenty-four. He’s a million years old! He’s seen fucking everything!” VICKY: “C’mon—go with the real ages here.” IZZY: “What’s the bullshit with the ages? That shit doesn’t matter to us.” SLASH: “Izzy is twenty-three and Steve’s twenty-one.” IZZY: “Just print that for the Rainbow so they’ll let us all in.” SLASH: “Please—just don’t ask us where we’re from.” IZZY: “Yeah, fuck that. There’ll be no shit in there about me being from Indiana, which deserves fucking nothing. It was a worthless fucking city. It’s shit.” SLASH: “Can you print, like, ‘Indiana sucks’?” IZZY: “The fact that I’m from Indiana has no business being in my career.” (...) She asked about songwriting. “We all write,” Axl answered. “I write the majority of the melodies, and we work on everything else.” Slash said that Axl wrote all the lyrics and they all collaborated on the rest. Axl continued: “We write in vans on the way to shows. We write songs when we’re hanging out on the corner waiting for someone to buy a bottle. Yeah—waiting for alcohol.” “If I can speak for everybody,” Slash said, looking around at his already bored bandmates, “the whole point is that we want to reach a lot of people. We want to be a . . . worldwide exhibit! We don’t have to be accepted, we just wanna be a band that’s fucking out there.” Slash’s inspiration sent Axl into a self-defining soliloquy: “I live for the songs,” Axl said. He paused. His tone changed, darkening. He seemed in a trance. The rest of the band woke up and leaned in to listen. “If I go through a bad time . . . well . . . anything I have to go through is worth it if I can get a song out of it. If I slept in a parking garage, and I hated it, and I wanted to give it all up . . . but I just kept going . . . and I got a song out of it, from the experience . . . then I’m so glad that I had to go through a ton of shit. . . . “When I’m onstage, that’s when I take what I’m worth to the public. I bring out everything I’ve worked on for the past month, show the people my songs, and give that feeling to them. “When I’m singing a line, I’m thinking of the feelings that made me come up with the song in the first place. At the same time, I think about how I feel singing those words now, and how those words are gonna hit the people in the crowd.” Axl described the toll these feelings took on his body and mind. The band had all noticed how he would tremble after good shows. “I usually have to have someone stand beside me when I come offstage, because I can’t even tie my own shoes. I’ve gone through so many thoughts onstage.” He described looking out at a crowd of 700 and knowing 300 of them. He loved some, hated others, was in debt to this one, had slept with that one—ten times. “You see all this stuff, plus—you’re thinking about the feeling in the music. I put every possible thought I can, into every performance and every line.” Vicky came up with some cash and Steven and Duff left on a Marlboro run. Karen Burch went to the bathroom. While she was out of the room, they recorded some vulgar sexual suggestions on the tape for her to discover later. When she returned, she was shocked to find that Axl had broken her cassette recorder. He explained that he was going to leave a message on the tape, but he pushed the wrong buttons and the thing is fucked. Sorry. Vicky came up with another machine, and the interview continued. DUFF: “We’re doin’ what we wanna,” glug glug, “and we’re pulling it off.” IZZY: “We sell out every fuckin’ club in L.A. that we play.” SLASH: “Listen, I don’t care if you think I’ve got a bad attitude, or if I’m being big-headed about it, but this is the only fuckin’ band that’s come of L.A. that’s real —and the kids know it.” Karen asked how the band got along with each other. Slash said that they didn’t have many friends outside of the band. AXL: “We’re a family.” DUFF: “When we go out, there’s nobody else we would have more fun with. If someone’s not there and then they show up, it’s like . . .” AXL: “Great—you’re here! Let’s go! Rape! Pillage! Destroy!” IZZY: “That’s our motto.” Axl said that he thought the band would stay together as long as there was a spark between them. IZZY: “Till we die, and then some.” Steven said that even after they died, they would still be together. SLASH: “Yeah, I mean . . . I loved my dog. . . .” IZZY: “But then he died, and now you have Steve.” STEVEN: “Hey—fuck you!” ........ Asked if they were as “bad” as people said they were, Slash replied, “We are.” Duff added, “We have no choice.” Axl concurred: “Trouble? All the time.” The reporter gave everyone one wish. Steven wished for peace of mind. Izzy said he wanted a Maserati. Slash wanted an endless supply of Marlboro cigarettes. Duff just wanted to have the GN’R record out, and to be on the road. Axl was more prophetic. “I think that . . . I don’t like that question. It’s ridiculous because we are working on getting everything we want. If I had my wishes, I’d want all the money there is. I’d want power and control over everything there is, and third, I’d want all the wishes there are to have.” Slash summed this up. “Axl is just another version of the Ayatollah.” Edited August 29, 2016 by Blackstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babooshka Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) I remember the interview, and it was Izzy. Not sure how accurate that except is, because Izzy also spoke about this in an interview which should still be on youtube. Plus I don't think Axl would mis-remember something like that. Edited August 26, 2016 by Babooshka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Babooshka said: I remember the interview, and it was Izzy. Not sure how accurate that except is, because Izzy also spoke about this in an interview which should still be on youtube. Plus I don't think Axl would mis-remember something like that. Yes, truth is it seems more like something Izzy would say than Slash. Is the original 1986 interview anywhere on line? Edited August 26, 2016 by Blackstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babooshka Posted August 26, 2016 Share Posted August 26, 2016 There are few ancient sites with old interviews, but I'm not sure. It's probably somewhere on waybackmachine. But yeah, it doesn't even sound like something Slash would say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludurigan Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 nice thread, but lets cut the crap here who cares what axl said on china whatever? who cares what slash wrote on his book? who cares who called axl aiatohlah or whatever all of these guys keep saying one thing one day and they change completely and say the very opposite thing right after it the only question worth asking at this point is (when) are we having GUNS N ROSES back? despite all the excitement and whatnot, what we have, right now, is 4 non-gnr people onstage fucking with the music wont these 4 people ever gonna walk out? wont izzy and steven ever come back? when the fuck is all of that happening? when the fuck are we gonna have fucking Guns n Roses again? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 4 hours ago, Blackstar said: SLASH: “Yeah, I mean . . . I loved my dog. . . .” IZZY: “But then he died, and now you have Steve.” STEVEN: “Hey—fuck you!” 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Powerage5 Posted August 27, 2016 Popular Post Share Posted August 27, 2016 1 hour ago, ludurigan said: nice thread, but lets cut the crap here who cares what axl said on china whatever? who cares what slash wrote on his book? who cares who called axl aiatohlah or whatever all of these guys keep saying one thing one day and they change completely and say the very opposite thing right after it the only question worth asking at this point is (when) are we having GUNS N ROSES back? despite all the excitement and whatnot, what we have, right now, is 4 non-gnr people onstage fucking with the music wont these 4 people ever gonna walk out? wont izzy and steven ever come back? when the fuck is all of that happening? when the fuck are we gonna have fucking Guns n Roses again? FFS, some people are never happy. You've got Axl, Slash, and Duff on the same stage again - something that by most accounts was probably never going to happen. Yet it did. And now some people still need to find something to complain about. But you know what? I'll humor you - let's take them person-by person. Dizzy - Essential to the UYI songs, considering he played on the fucking albums. You can't possibly argue that he shouldn't be onstage, unless you want the band to play Appetite front to back, and nothing else. Fortus - Izzy doesn't like touring, that's a pretty commonly accepted fact. If he isn't up for it, Richard is the next best guy. No doubt about that. Frank - Clearly, having Adler guest occasionally has fed the flames of wanting him back. But, for one reason or another, he isn't touring full-time. We don't know the reason, but there clearly is one. I'd sure as hell rather have Frank than Sorum or Brain, but I will give you that this one is considerably more subjective than the others. Melissa- I'm still not her biggest fan, and I'm still not sold on her necessity. I've felt that way since I watched her sit cross-legged under her fucking keyboard while the rest of the band played Don't Cry in Detroit. But if Axl feels that a second keyboardist is still necessary for the CD songs, and relations with Pitman went south, then I guess someone has to fill that void. I'm totally indifferent to who it is though. I'm sorry, but your argument is so flawed. According to your post, no one other than Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy, and Steven have ever been part of GN'R. So yeah, let's forget the Illusions ever happened. That wasn't really GN'R anyways. You've got to face the facts; that lineup really only had a few years together, and even at their peak, GN'R was beginning to become a revolving door of musicians. Let me ask you this - would you be complaining the same way as you are if Sorum and Gilby were a part of this lineup instead of Frank and Richard? 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 19 hours ago, JustanUrchin said: 11. Anyone with functioning ears can hear that Slash and Duff rewrote the intro to “Better” and that Slash gutted the “TIL” solo as recorded. These are two of the three ChiDem staples on the 2016 tour. Imagine if one of Slash’s revolving-door replacements gutted the “SCOM” solo. What accounts for Slash trashing what he doesn’t like on the ChiDem stuff and playing the solos how he pleases? Has he even played the “TIL” solo the same way twice? The intro to Better isn't re-written. It's just the existing bridge of the song moved to the beginning. As for the TIL solo, Slash didn't "gut it". The main points in the solo are still there, he just sort of riffs on the parts in between. Lastly, Robin vastly changed many of Slash's solos and played them differently several times just as Slash has done with TIL. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustanUrchin Posted August 27, 2016 Author Share Posted August 27, 2016 8 hours ago, Powerage5 said: FFS, some people are never happy. You've got Axl, Slash, and Duff on the same stage again - something that by most accounts was probably never going to happen. Yet it did. And now some people still need to find something to complain about. But you know what? I'll humor you - let's take them person-by person. Dizzy - Essential to the UYI songs, considering he played on the fucking albums. You can't possibly argue that he shouldn't be onstage, unless you want the band to play Appetite front to back, and nothing else. Fortus - Izzy doesn't like touring, that's a pretty commonly accepted fact. If he isn't up for it, Richard is the next best guy. No doubt about that. Frank - Clearly, having Adler guest occasionally has fed the flames of wanting him back. But, for one reason or another, he isn't touring full-time. We don't know the reason, but there clearly is one. I'd sure as hell rather have Frank than Sorum or Brain, but I will give you that this one is considerably more subjective than the others. Melissa- I'm still not her biggest fan, and I'm still not sold on her necessity. I've felt that way since I watched her sit cross-legged under her fucking keyboard while the rest of the band played Don't Cry in Detroit. But if Axl feels that a second keyboardist is still necessary for the CD songs, and relations with Pitman went south, then I guess someone has to fill that void. I'm totally indifferent to who it is though. I'm sorry, but your argument is so flawed. According to your post, no one other than Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy, and Steven have ever been part of GN'R. So yeah, let's forget the Illusions ever happened. That wasn't really GN'R anyways. You've got to face the facts; that lineup really only had a few years together, and even at their peak, GN'R was beginning to become a revolving door of musicians. Let me ask you this - would you be complaining the same way as you are if Sorum and Gilby were a part of this lineup instead of Frank and Richard? The purpose of the topic, as stated, was to list recent facts that point to the structure of the reconstituted Gn’R business. By doing so, it explains how Adler came to be on stage this summer. The greater goal was to both to stamp out myth-pushing by Axl apologists regarding “whose” band it is legally and functionally and to gather additional, recent facts regarding the business entity of Gn’R of which I was unaware. Accurately identifying these matters shapes answers regarding the future of this business entity, and the future plans of this business is a recurring point of, if not the singular most important, interest for fans. Almost immediately after posting my topic, which includes factual sourcing, someone moved the topic behind the curtain. After reviewing the forum’s rules, which are framed largely as negatives (what not write), it is unclear why this topic was promptly moved to the back of the store. I contacted the forum manager(s) via the link at the bottom of the page for explanation yesterday, but have received none. You have, however, responded at length to one of the posters of my topic to tell him/her why she is "wrong." (And as I write this, yet another forum employee/manager/etc. has taken the time to reply to tell me why a spurious conclusion of mine regarding Slash as a living guitar legend is "wrong" ). My topic is driven by 14 sourced or citable facts, 13 of which are the result of events in 2016. The outlier (Adler’s interview by Trunk) occurred in November 2015. Descriptive facts that support and reinforce 2016 factual events are likewise sourced, e.g., to Slash’s autobiography. This is the second time that I have posted content which has been censored on this site. The first was a reply to another member regarding his/her inflammatory and disrespectful comments about Adler. Said reply was deleted almost immediately despite the nature of the reply being constructive. No explanation was offered. While my content in this thread is still available (at present), as noted, it has been moved to the back of the store and thus effectively censored. Meanwhile, a topic presently on page 1 of D&N based solely on a 2012 rambling, largely incoherent written statement by Axl gains steam. My topic is driven entirely by present and near recent events as related to the business of the band moving forward. If there is a more relevant topic to Gn’R fans, I would be hard-pressed to identify it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 6 minutes ago, JustanUrchin said: The purpose of the topic, as stated, was to list recent facts that point to the structure of the reconstituted Gn’R business. By doing so, it explains how Adler came to be on stage this summer. The greater goal was to both to stamp out myth-pushing by Axl apologists regarding “whose” band it is legally and functionally and to gather additional, recent facts regarding the business entity of Gn’R of which I was unaware. Accurately identifying these matters shapes answers regarding the future of this business entity, and the future plans of this business is a recurring point of, if not the singular most important, interest for fans. Almost immediately after posting my topic, which includes factual sourcing, someone moved the topic behind the curtain. After reviewing the forum’s rules, which are framed largely as negatives (what not write), it is unclear why this topic was promptly moved to the back of the store. I contacted the forum manager(s) via the link at the bottom of the page for explanation yesterday, but have received none. You have, however, responded at length to one of the posters of my topic to tell him/her why she is "wrong." (And as I write this, yet another forum employee/manager/etc. has taken the time to reply to tell me why a spurious conclusion of mine regarding Slash as a living guitar legend is "wrong" ). My topic is driven by 14 sourced or citable facts, 13 of which are the result of events in 2016. The outlier (Adler’s interview by Trunk) occurred in November 2015. Descriptive facts that support and reinforce 2016 factual events are likewise sourced, e.g., to Slash’s autobiography. This is the second time that I have posted content which has been censored on this site. The first was a reply to another member regarding his/her inflammatory and disrespectful comments about Adler. Said reply was deleted almost immediately despite the nature of the reply being constructive. No explanation was offered. While my content in this thread is still available (at present), as noted, it has been moved to the back of the store and thus effectively censored. Meanwhile, a topic presently on page 1 of D&N based solely on a 2012 rambling, largely incoherent written statement by Axl gains steam. My topic is driven entirely by present and near recent events as related to the business of the band moving forward. If there is a more relevant topic to Gn’R fans, I would be hard-pressed to identify it. Neither @Powerage5 nor I were the ones that moved the topic, but we understand why it was moved along with why it would stay in D&N. Full disclosure; my biggest problem with the topic is the way you present opinion as fact. An example of which is the part I quoted and replied to above. That's the main reason I was in favor of moving it to this section as I saw it causing more arguments than straight discussion which is what the Civil War section of the board is meant for. No one is censoring you. Removing the thread all together would be censorship. Moving it to where people can have a more healthy debate on the topic isn't censorship in the slightest IMO. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 Always liked Izzy, top lad 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustanUrchin Posted August 27, 2016 Author Share Posted August 27, 2016 2 hours ago, RussTCB said: The intro to Better isn't re-written. It's just the existing bridge of the song moved to the beginning. As for the TIL solo, Slash didn't "gut it". The main points in the solo are still there, he just sort of riffs on the parts in between. Lastly, Robin vastly changed many of Slash's solos and played them differently several times just as Slash has done with TIL. You are not a hunter, apparently. A hunter guts a kill. In doing so, the hunter simultaneously removes the stench and undesirable parts. Music does not have a smell, not literally, anyhow, thus Slash has sonically gutted the parts that he does not desire from the solo in “TIL.” Then again, the point of your reply seems to be semantics. I do not patronize others, so I will not link to the recorded version of the “TIL” solo or the two dozen or so instances of Slash gutting the recorded notes. I then, in support of the actual topic, asked readers to imagine one of the seven replacement guitarists gutting Slash’s iconic “SCOM” solo. “TIL” is apparently the most favored track from Axl’s 15 original songs in 25 years based upon YT plays. There is no close second. Slash has gutted its solo. Please source an instance of when one of the seven replacement guitarists gutted the “SCOM” solo on stage. It seems unthinkable said occurred in front of paying fans and thus exists, but not impossible. But, then again, that is my supporting point that you latched onto—that Slash is a living guitar legend. He can and is, in packed American stadiums, doing whatever the hell he wants with the “TIL” solo. As stated, anyone with functioning ears can hear that the intro to “Better” has been rewritten. That it is based on a snippet of structure elsewhere from the song reinforces the fact that the intro has been rewritten. Anyone who claims that the intro to that song as played throughout the spring and summer has not been reworked from its recorded version is both factually wrong and contrarian. Your reply is just one of two vaguely on-topic. Facts 10-13 are grouped collectively to inform those who may be unaware, and because they are central to the actual topic—the structure of the biz entity as it relates to decision-making on business and creative matters. These matters, from a pragmatic view, are inseparable. The topic, as stated in the initial post and summarized in my last reply: to list recent facts that point to the structure of the reconstituted Gn’R business and to gather other publicly known facts, if existing. By doing so, it explains how Adler came to be on stage this summer. Understanding the biz structure of the band sheds light on its present and future plans in the absence of an official statement beyond tour scheduling and its promotion. This is a constant point of both interest and contention for (reemerging) fans of this band’s music or the music of its individual members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 9 minutes ago, JustanUrchin said: You are not a hunter, apparently. A hunter guts a kill. In doing so, the hunter simultaneously removes the stench and undesirable parts. Music does not have a smell, not literally, anyhow, thus Slash has sonically gutted the parts that he does not desire from the solo in “TIL.” Then again, the point of your reply seems to be semantics. I do not patronize others, so I will not link to the recorded version of the “TIL” solo or the two dozen or so instances of Slash gutting the recorded notes. I then, in support of the actual topic, asked readers to imagine one of the seven replacement guitarists gutting Slash’s iconic “SCOM” solo. “TIL” is apparently the most favored track from Axl’s 15 original songs in 25 years based upon YT plays. There is no close second. Slash has gutted its solo. Please source an instance of when one of the seven replacement guitarists gutted the “SCOM” solo on stage. It seems unthinkable said occurred in front of paying fans and thus exists, but not impossible. But, then again, that is my supporting point that you latched onto—that Slash is a living guitar legend. He can and is, in packed American stadiums, doing whatever the hell he wants with the “TIL” solo. As stated, anyone with functioning ears can hear that the intro to “Better” has been rewritten. That it is based on a snippet of structure elsewhere from the song reinforces the fact that the intro has been rewritten. Anyone who claims that the intro to that song as played throughout the spring and summer has not been reworked from its recorded version is both factually wrong and contrarian. Your reply is just one of two vaguely on-topic. Facts 10-13 are grouped collectively to inform those who may be unaware, and because they are central to the actual topic—the structure of the biz entity as it relates to decision-making on business and creative matters. These matters, from a pragmatic view, are inseparable. The topic, as stated in the initial post and summarized in my last reply: to list recent facts that point to the structure of the reconstituted Gn’R business and to gather other publicly known facts, if existing. By doing so, it explains how Adler came to be on stage this summer. Understanding the biz structure of the band sheds light on its present and future plans in the absence of an official statement beyond tour scheduling and its promotion. This is a constant point of both interest and contention for (reemerging) fans of this band’s music or the music of its individual members. The point of my reply isn't semantics, it's about how you're stating opinion as fact. It's your opinion that Slash gutted the TIL solo while others (myself included) think he's kept the main feel of it along with certain parts of it, then changed other parts. I get the hunting comparison but you're making it sound as if he completely changed the solo from top to bottom which just isn't true. As I said before, Robin used to do that quite a bit with most GN'R solos and he got bashed for it constantly on these boards. Another opinion is that they've completely re-written the intro of Better which, as I said before, they haven't. They've simply moved the entire rhythm part found under one of the solos to the intro. That's not re-writing, that's just taking an existing part of a song and doing it again elsewhere. Reworked intro? Absolutely. Re-written intro? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustanUrchin Posted August 27, 2016 Author Share Posted August 27, 2016 8 hours ago, RussTCB said: Neither @Powerage5 nor I were the ones that moved the topic, but we understand why it was moved along with why it would stay in D&N. Full disclosure; my biggest problem with the topic is the way you present opinion as fact. An example of which is the part I quoted and replied to above. That's the main reason I was in favor of moving it to this section as I saw it causing more arguments than straight discussion which is what the Civil War section of the board is meant for. No one is censoring you. Removing the thread all together would be censorship. Moving it to where people can have a more healthy debate on the topic isn't censorship in the slightest IMO. My first thought is…what? A site reliant upon traffic discussing commercial music to generate ad revenue has a poster with a sourced and citable topic, relevant to the singular question many fans have, and a team promptly jumps into action to effectively censor it? While I do not recall seeing two employees/managers joining the first page of a thread in any topic that I’ve read, there are at least three employees/managers involved in my first and only thread? I listed 14 sourced or citable facts, 8 of which are direct quotes. Of the 14, you isolate the sole fact reliant upon an auditory source yet state that is “an example” of presenting opinion as fact. I offered auditory evidence, so if that is insufficient for you, then you must want visual sheet music or full notations for the recorded vs. reworked intro and solo. You offered no evidence that any of the remaining 13 sourced or citable facts, including 8 with direct quotes are “present[ing] opinion as fact.” I delineated, with labeled sections no less: background (citable fact), fact list (sourced and citable), and conclusions. In 6 of the 14 sourced or citable facts, I included pointed discussion questions. The fact that you dispute is arranged in a group (10-13) as they are related to the topic of the business structure of this entity, specifically creative decision-making. In thread after thread, Axl apologists present opinion as fact—“facts” that are demonstrably false and perpetuate myths, yet you claim 14 facts that I listed, 8 of which contain direct quotes, are actually opinion. In scanning the original posts on Page 1 of D&N, you are indisputably not only not requiring factual content, but permit wholesale speculation as viable content for acceptable threads. Your reasoning for effectively censoring this topic is much like Axl demanding paying concert goers (in London 2012) disrobe personal property containing Slash imagery—sure they could still enter the arena, but without the shirt on their back. He didn’t like the fact that Gn’R fans adore Slash, so he censored them. But still “allowed” them in to retain the revenue they produced. Actions surrounding this timely and relevant topic have stigmatized it sufficiently so that many would not contribute to it now even if removed from behind the curtain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludurigan Posted August 27, 2016 Share Posted August 27, 2016 18 hours ago, Powerage5 said: FFS, some people are never happy. You've got Axl, Slash, and Duff on the same stage again - something that by most accounts was probably never going to happen. Yet it did. And now some people still need to find something to complain about. But you know what? I'll humor you - let's take them person-by person. Dizzy - Essential to the UYI songs, considering he played on the fucking albums. You can't possibly argue that he shouldn't be onstage, unless you want the band to play Appetite front to back, and nothing else. Fortus - Izzy doesn't like touring, that's a pretty commonly accepted fact. If he isn't up for it, Richard is the next best guy. No doubt about that. Frank - Clearly, having Adler guest occasionally has fed the flames of wanting him back. But, for one reason or another, he isn't touring full-time. We don't know the reason, but there clearly is one. I'd sure as hell rather have Frank than Sorum or Brain, but I will give you that this one is considerably more subjective than the others. Melissa- I'm still not her biggest fan, and I'm still not sold on her necessity. I've felt that way since I watched her sit cross-legged under her fucking keyboard while the rest of the band played Don't Cry in Detroit. But if Axl feels that a second keyboardist is still necessary for the CD songs, and relations with Pitman went south, then I guess someone has to fill that void. I'm totally indifferent to who it is though. I'm sorry, but your argument is so flawed. According to your post, no one other than Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy, and Steven have ever been part of GN'R. So yeah, let's forget the Illusions ever happened. That wasn't really GN'R anyways. You've got to face the facts; that lineup really only had a few years together, and even at their peak, GN'R was beginning to become a revolving door of musicians. Let me ask you this - would you be complaining the same way as you are if Sorum and Gilby were a part of this lineup instead of Frank and Richard? if you cant tell the difference between Guns n Roses and this threeunion thing with 4 hired hands... enjoy the party, a lot of people have been enjoying it since izzy left in 1991 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussTCB Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 1 hour ago, JustanUrchin said: My first thought is…what? A site reliant upon traffic discussing commercial music to generate ad revenue has a poster with a sourced and citable topic, relevant to the singular question many fans have, and a team promptly jumps into action to effectively censor it? While I do not recall seeing two employees/managers joining the first page of a thread in any topic that I’ve read, there are at least three employees/managers involved in my first and only thread? I listed 14 sourced or citable facts, 8 of which are direct quotes. Of the 14, you isolate the sole fact reliant upon an auditory source yet state that is “an example” of presenting opinion as fact. I offered auditory evidence, so if that is insufficient for you, then you must want visual sheet music or full notations for the recorded vs. reworked intro and solo. You offered no evidence that any of the remaining 13 sourced or citable facts, including 8 with direct quotes are “present[ing] opinion as fact.” I delineated, with labeled sections no less: background (citable fact), fact list (sourced and citable), and conclusions. In 6 of the 14 sourced or citable facts, I included pointed discussion questions. The fact that you dispute is arranged in a group (10-13) as they are related to the topic of the business structure of this entity, specifically creative decision-making. In thread after thread, Axl apologists present opinion as fact—“facts” that are demonstrably false and perpetuate myths, yet you claim 14 facts that I listed, 8 of which contain direct quotes, are actually opinion. In scanning the original posts on Page 1 of D&N, you are indisputably not only not requiring factual content, but permit wholesale speculation as viable content for acceptable threads. Your reasoning for effectively censoring this topic is much like Axl demanding paying concert goers (in London 2012) disrobe personal property containing Slash imagery—sure they could still enter the arena, but without the shirt on their back. He didn’t like the fact that Gn’R fans adore Slash, so he censored them. But still “allowed” them in to retain the revenue they produced. Actions surrounding this timely and relevant topic have stigmatized it sufficiently so that many would not contribute to it now even if removed from behind the curtain. Once more; no one is censoring you and again, neither myself nor @Powerage5 are the ones who moved your topic though we do agree with why it was moved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BorderlineCrazy Posted August 28, 2016 Share Posted August 28, 2016 12 hours ago, RussTCB said: As I said before, Robin used to do that quite a bit with most GN'R solos and he got bashed for it constantly on these boards. Damn it, man. Now you made me remember what Robin did to November Rain in RIR III. I think I'm gonna throw up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted August 31, 2016 Share Posted August 31, 2016 (edited) On 27/08/2016 at 5:05 AM, ludurigan said: nice thread, but lets cut the crap here who cares what axl said on china whatever? who cares what slash wrote on his book? who cares who called axl aiatohlah or whatever all of these guys keep saying one thing one day and they change completely and say the very opposite thing right after it the only question worth asking at this point is (when) are we having GUNS N ROSES back? despite all the excitement and whatnot, what we have, right now, is 4 non-gnr people onstage fucking with the music wont these 4 people ever gonna walk out? wont izzy and steven ever come back? when the fuck is all of that happening? when the fuck are we gonna have fucking Guns n Roses again? agreed. every time I see that long line of musicians after a GNR show, taking the bow, it's a serious momentum killer. 3 original members bowing would be so much more powerfull than 7. but yeah, that wont happen of course. "frank has been in GNR for 10 years" and all that nonsense. they can easily lose dizzy and Melissa. at the very least. frank and Richard are needed out of necessity, I can see that. but they are additional musicians, not original members. but the band is in a position they don't need to thread muddy waters. the money will roll in regardless. a small part of me hopes a new album will feature the appetite 5 though, and only them Edited August 31, 2016 by action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludurigan Posted September 1, 2016 Share Posted September 1, 2016 17 hours ago, action said: agreed. every time I see that long line of musicians after a GNR show, taking the bow, it's a serious momentum killer. 3 original members bowing would be so much more powerfull than 7. but yeah, that wont happen of course. "frank has been in GNR for 10 years" and all that nonsense. they can easily lose dizzy and Melissa. at the very least. frank and Richard are needed out of necessity, I can see that. but they are additional musicians, not original members. but the band is in a position they don't need to thread muddy waters. the money will roll in regardless. a small part of me hopes a new album will feature the appetite 5 though, and only them exactly, axl, slash and duff are making so much money -- and probably having a mighty fine stress-free time with these yes-(men)musicians -- that they probably couldnt care the fuck less about izzy and steven oh, and talk about momentum killer! you are lucky if you are bothered only by the final bow. just the sight of that richard dude onstage makes me cringe. that guy is the anti-izzy, the anti-keith, the most uncool thing in rock n rol since bono and creed lets talk about good things. to have the five guys is the fucking dream. everyone will know it when (if) it happens. I mean, just one song -- ONE SONG -- by Guns n Roses would be enough. i am pretty sure even the younger fans who grew up seeing axl solo-era will jump right into it. those guys are magic together. a lot of people say that slash brings the best in axl and vice-versa. 100% corret! what no one seems to notice (or to tak about) is how izzy brings the best of axl, slash and duff. izzy is needed, he is fucking irreplaceable. steven is fucking irreplaceable too. but at this point id take axl, izzy, slash, duff, a decent drummer and dizzy -- like in early 1991 i really hope they are smart enough to get back together and to write dozens of songs and record them and release them and tour them and be GNR again! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lassie Posted September 4, 2016 Share Posted September 4, 2016 The more things change, the more they stay the same. I am just glad for what we have gotten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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