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The Day Kanye West Killed Gangsta Rap


Dan H.

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Good read, its been almost a decade since the Kanye West/50 Cent sales battle on this day in 2007, in which 'Ye outsold Fif.

This post is to discuss this event, and its implications.

If you are just gonna post that you don't like Kanye, Fif, or rap music, then you don't have anything to contribute, thanks.

http://www.complex.com/music/2015/09/the-day-kanye-west-killed-gangsta-rap?utm_campaign=musicfb&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social

 

Edited by Dan H.
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This can be seen as the turning point in which rap went shit basically.  And i don't think it's even necessarily to do with Gangsta Rap, it's about the point where rap stopped being an urban art form and turned into being about electro pop beats, leather skirts, half baked concept albums and male divas.  Cut to fuckin' 9 years later and you have rappers that snitch, wear nail polish, come into radio stations sounding like they're about to cry talkin' about 'put some respeck on mah name' and fuckin' weasels like Charlamagne tha God and phoney beef and the absolute loss of the urban edge that made rap exciting and appealing.  Rap for a while was this art form that just couldn't fake it in and survive.  Today it is a pre-requisite to fake it.  I'm not saying this 50 vs Kanye thing was what caused it, I'm just saying it was when the shift in the market first became apparent in a grand sense.

Rap today is where rock n roll was in the early 70s, you got a few old guys out there that still hold it down but most of whats contemporary is just soft, wishy washy effete bullshit with a bunch of morons running around thinking they are geniuses.  Kanye is currently the worst of them all, he is literally the biggest moron in popular culture right now who is afforded a platform to talk at length about absolute fuckin' bullshit.  Whatever else you might say about 50, Fif' is a fuckin' clever guy, when he talks he talks sense, whether it be about business or street shit or whatever, he's a bright spark.  Kanye is a fuckin' bumbling idiot, insults like these are thrown about so much that its almost like today they don't have any meaning but he is the definition of such terms.  Fool.  Moron.  And it just gets worse and worse every time he opens his mouth to the point where myself, at this point, having been a rap fan since before my teens and I'm fuckin' comin' on to mid 30s, I'm almost done with rap, it's gotten than boring and lame and Kanye is symptomatic (though to be fair to be him not the whole problem) of this fuckin' malaise hip hop is in.  

The culture is dying.  It might go on for another couple of decades and you get the odd spark just like rock n roll did after the mid 70s but they'll just be isolated little flare ups, the thing is finished in terms of it ever being any kind of cutting edge substantial thing.  You have rap in commercials, rap at fuckin' airports, newscasters and middle aged midday womens prime time TV hosts that are 'down' with rap, it's dead in the water.  It is insubstantial, it has about as much to it as 50s rock n roll did in the 80s in terms of having any kind of bite.

And y'know what, it's OK too, everything has its day and then its done and it's time for something new.

Edited by Len Cnut
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I think you're somewhat right, that origin culture of rap is dying or dead.

Musically however, we have a lot of quality hip hop artists right now.

But if that original sentiment of hip hop is what was attractive to you, then I could see how you wouldn't enjoy rap today

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I think Kendrick says a lot in his music, his new album seemed really politically orientated lyrically, and his musical inspiration comes from forms of jazz, a traditionally black genre, so I don't think its without its messages, its just without its urban edge, like you say.

I question whether or not the content of the music has changed for the worse, as you seem to conclude, but rather we as a society just aren't as dramatically shocked anymore about black men angrily expressing politics and lifestyle

Sure, rap is no longer EXCLUSIVELY an ultra masculine aggressive genre, now we have more flavor and variety of people who are hip hop artists (part of that I think I because hip hop is not longer underground, again, because black men reassuring a white audience of their worst racist fears isn't shocking anymore, and in fact makes people lots and lots of money and fame these days), but there still are those kinds of rappers around, Jigga, Kendrick, and Vince Staples come to mind. Tyler the Creator is incredibly shocking too.

 

But then I think maybe it wasn't about the sound of the music or the content of the lyrics to you, and maybe you liked rap because it was cool, underground, and taboo.

But todays artists didn't take that away from rap, society and desensitization did.

 

Edited by Dan H.
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Quote

 

I think Kendrick says a lot in his music, his new album seemed really politically orientated lyrically, and his musical inspiration comes from forms of jazz, a traditionally black genre, so I don't think its without its messages, its just without its urban edge, like you say.

 

Oh it's saying something, it's just not SAYING something y'know?  Like Public Enemy were SAYING something.  And he's one of 5 i can think of offhand, maybe 3 that are saying something.  There's nothing radical about whats being said.  Perhaps radical is not the right, it's just not any kind of insight into anything.  And the jazz aspect, well, Rakim was doing that almost 30 years ago now.

 

Quote

 

But then I think maybe it wasn't about the sound of the music or the content of the lyrics to you, and maybe you liked rap because it was cool, underground, and taboo.


 

Rap was far from underground in my time and i loved...and i mean LOVED the music and the content of the lyrics, which is why said what i did about saying something, I'm not old enough to remember when rap was underground and, OK, since we're talking musical here, there is nothing cutting edge about it anymore.  Rap as a form was basically taken from reggae and dub and sound system parties in Jamaica and taking old records and having a DJ toasting over em, rhyming words, taking that step further by the mixing of two disparate strands of music and making something fresh with types of rhythms that were almost alien to 90% of popular culture.  Now you can have the same producer as Britney Spears and Madonna lay some shit down and have a guy or a girl talking some stanky leg shit and hey presto, you're No 1 with a bullet.

Content of the lyrics is my whole point, Ra' was saying something, KRS was saying something, Tupac was saying something, The Wu were saying something, yeah it was coarse and kinda haphazard and they might've got it wrong at points but, to be frank, there ain't nothing Kendrick can tell me that i can't hear at some 3rd rate college campus somewhere.  Now Ghostface on the other hand can paint me a vivid picture and tell me stories and present me with a morality and with ideas that are something that the average person simply is not privvy too.

Rap resonated worldwide precisely because of it's urban message and how unique that was, from Israel to Africa that shit had an effect...to lose that in favour of the odd non commital broadstrokes of a Kendrick or worse, a Kanye is sending the art form to the gallows.

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Other than the culture and time period being different today(and the internet), I'm just not seeing what you're seeing I guess. I love Wu, and Tupac, Public Enemy, NWA, Nas, Dre, all those guys. But I don't find their messages to be significantly more enlightening than Kendrick, and many other rappers out there today.

The only thing that made early rappers more edgy and taboo was that it took society by surprise. It was a time and place thing I think, or maybe I'm missing something. I'm not as invested in music culture as you are, but I do okay, and I don't find there to be a big musical quality difference between rap now and then.

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24 minutes ago, Dan H. said:

Other than the culture and time period being different today(and the internet), I'm just not seeing what you're seeing I guess. I love Wu, and Tupac, Public Enemy, NWA, Nas, Dre, all those guys. But I don't find their messages to be significantly more enlightening than Kendrick, and many other rappers out there today.

The only thing that made early rappers more edgy and taboo was that it took society by surprise. It was a time and place thing I think, or maybe I'm missing something. I'm not as invested in music culture as you are, but I do okay, and I don't find there to be a big musical quality difference between rap now and then.

I suppose i see how that can happen because you've sort of grown up with Pac Wu etc as just a cultural reality but like...to someone like me who was kinda of age when they came i could tell how different it was to everything that came before and how raw and honest it was and how comparitively lacking we are today.  Lets be clear about this, it ain't cuz people today are unoffendable, they're just as offendable, what with political correctness etc, which is what makes todays music all that more toe-the-line-ish, they know what they can or cant do and they toe that fuckin' line good and proper.  

That taboo stuff is bullshit, there are taboos today too, all it takes is someone with balls enough to speak out against this tightly clenched culture we live in today...but no one wants to do it in case someone calls em racist or homophobic or gender prejudiced or whatever.  The fact is there is no alternative voice today, there is mainstream and thats what everyone accepts and agrees with and because there is so little industry left to music nobody has the balls to come from the heart because they know where there was 5 hands reaching for the same dollar there are now 20 and the dollar is dangled that much higher and your ability to grasp it is that much more tentative.

There is never a lack of truths to be told, always a lack of fearless speakers.

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I can't stand Kayne and don't understand his appeal at all. 

But I loved reading your guy's discussion.  Intelligent and insightful and void of fhe juvenile insults that usually dominate rock interent forums.

Well done Len and Dan. Very Well done. You only get discussions like this in about one out of every 100 topics. But discussions like this are why I keep coming back. 

Thanks guys. I wish every topic had this kind of quality back-and-forth. 

Edited by Apollo
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Yeah Kanye helped bury rap. From the attitude, to the subject matter, to the actual quality of the rapping, to the beats. My goodness the beats. Hip hop was always different, made their own beats, many beats came from a certain area and sounded like it. Kanye killed that with his production. Where all rap production sounds the same and can be swapped out and nothing is missed. Very pop. Most rap beats don't even knock nowadays. You can take hip hop beats and put them on a Rhianna or Beyonce or Katy Perry song and they can fit.

Not just "gangsta" rap, but rap period. Kanye has been terrible for rap.

 

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6 hours ago, Silverburst80 said:

Odd Future were interesting for a week. Snotty little shits seemed to turn their nose up at being compared to Wu Tang, until they got approached backstage. See you have to be careful what you say!

They're dick heads, but that's part of their appeal to me. Never liked an artist because he/she was polite lol... Tyler is the best fitting of the description of "snot nosed brat" I suppose, but Frank Ocean and Earl Sweatshirt? You don't like them either?

 

1 hour ago, J Dog said:

Speaking on beats, and since 50 is included in the thread title, this is an excellent hip hop beat. I think it may from that album the op is eluding too, not 100% sure on that. Can't remember which album 50 had coming out at the time.

 

Yes, it was Curtis v The Graduation I think. I guess most of y'all don't care for Kanye, but I happened to thoroughly enjoy both of the albums.

Edited by Dan H.
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I hate Kanye as an artist and person. But just to the question/thought that he helped kill rap, I just think it's no question that he did. I've seen him called a genius, this generations' biggest musical influence, the architect of today's hip hop. If you believe any of those things, and 9 out of 10 people agree today's hip hop sucks or at least pales by far in comparison to older hip hop, then I think you absolutely have to give him some credit for the dying of real rap.

The importance of the beats can not be overlooked. Listen to that 50 song, that beat is 100% pure New York hip hop, can't be mistaken. Kanye, and Parrell too, they skipped that part. Snoop's Kanye and Pharrell songs sound just like Jay-Z's Kanye and Pharrell songs. Rap beats always had a territorial sound. That kept things fresh and kept them from sounding the same. Kanye and Pharrell made it so it all sounded the same. Everything had the same production. You might think that's dumb, but look where hip hop is now. It has no heart, and that includes the production. Rap is a specific thing, from a specific place, made by a specific people for a specific people. You take all that stuff away, and you're left with watered down imitations. Hip-pop.

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2 hours ago, J Dog said:

Speaking on beats, and since 50 is included in the thread title, this is an excellent hip hop beat. I think it may from that album the op is eluding too, not 100% sure on that. Can't remember which album 50 had coming out at the time.

 

Oooooh you bastard, leave it up to J to pick the hype track!

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22 minutes ago, Jakey Styley said:

Do you like Bobby Shmurda's music or are you just sorta interested in his story?

His music was pretty good, what little made it out there.  Didnt really get a chance to show much.

16 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

The thing that I hate about rap in general is that every time you hear a great beat it has invariably been lifted from another song.

*puts on poofy Malcolm McLaren voice* its the ultimate post modern music! :lol:

Edited by Len Cnut
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