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5 hours ago, wasted said:

It's all been covered. I think Axl was quoted as not wanting to lay up a brick, would rather have a future than bomb now. But as we see from Chinese whispers around 1999,2000 he was ready to go, but the label wanted to sell more, to save the label. They rejected the raw Beavan record. It was mastered if I remember correct.

I really wish he could have released CD around that time. The music itself was better than what we got, and that incarnation of a band was the closest thing we got to a true band, in regards to nuGNR.

After things went south with CD around that time and that band got busted up, I just think Axl didn't give too much of a fuck anymore. Almost like he didn't even care if it's released. Idk, maybe Duff and Slash can make him give a fuck again.

 

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1 hour ago, J Dog said:

I really wish he could have released CD around that time. The music itself was better than what we got, and that incarnation of a band was the closest thing we got to a true band, in regards to nuGNR.

After things went south with CD around that time and that band got busted up, I just think Axl didn't give too much of a fuck anymore. Almost like he didn't even care if it's released. Idk, maybe Duff and Slash can make him give a fuck again.

 

To me it seems like getting a good release plan set in place. That would help but rejecting records isn't a great idea. I guess they thought they were protecting their interest. 

Why didn't they say the Beavan record is great? We'll put The Blues and Madagascar out as a videos. Then we want you to work with RTB for the second album. 

That's why Axl isn't releasing music. They kept rejecting his albums. Those two he did should have taken them to 2008. Then release Costanzo record in 2012. 

We are just getting the edited highlights 10 years later kind of thing. 

 

 

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On Saturday, October 08, 2016 at 4:48 PM, Caraibes said:

THIS will be the most interesting thing to hear on the next records : best guitar combo in the world.

groupe-artiste-guns-n-roses-374984-11420

Izzy looks great in this pic. Edited highlights of chinese round 2, but with slash soloing all over the place and duff basslines. If some of bucket's and robin work stays and it's good than maybe that will be a nice and weird bonus for all this wait cause the label and axl could tinker some more. 2022 is where it's at.

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On 10/22/2016 at 3:37 AM, supercool said:

Axl isn't a perfectionist. If he was a perfectionist, he wouldn't have released Chinese Democracy, since it was far from perfect in every aspect.

didn't want to release it in it's current form. Hence he vanished for a while

On 10/22/2016 at 9:04 PM, ludurigan said:

I stopped thinking that Axl is a perfectionist right after the release of his solo album

I'm sure he won't care

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16 hours ago, wasted said:

To me it seems like getting a good release plan set in place. That would help but rejecting records isn't a great idea. I guess they thought they were protecting their interest. 

Why didn't they say the Beavan record is great? We'll put The Blues and Madagascar out as a videos. Then we want you to work with RTB for the second album. 

That's why Axl isn't releasing music. They kept rejecting his albums. Those two he did should have taken them to 2008. Then release Costanzo record in 2012. 

We are just getting the edited highlights 10 years later kind of thing. 

 

 

Unless you've chatted with Axl and he told you this, then your post is pure speculation with a HUGE pro-Axl bias. 

If he turned in an album full of songs like Scraped, Silkworms and Shacklers then you can't blame the label for saying it wasn't good enough. Look how Axl overproduced and layered CD to death. Maybe his original album was like that. 12 songs just liked scraped.

You are assuming Axl gave them gold. He might have gave them sh*t. 

"They kept rejecting albums"....what? How many albums did the reject?

And doesn't that contradict the fact that the label was begging Axl for music for years? Didn't they offer one producer a million dollar bonus if he could get an album from Axl?

And you can't dismiss the dollar amount because some of it was for room or equipment rental. That's not how it works. The album cost what it cost. Using your logic the album didn't take 13 years to make either because we can't count the days Axl spent not working on it. He spent a week on vacation in 2004 - substract those days.  Etc. 

I like you Wasted. But holy cow. The way you spin everything into not being Axl's fault is pretty amazing. 

Somehow other major bands are able to work with their labels and release albums. Have you heard the last couple Metallica albums? Bon Jovi. Def Leppard. Megadeth. Big name bands are able to release albums at will. Axl seems to be the only dude who can't "handle" working with a label. 

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People complain and bitch about record labels all the time. Since the beginning of the music business honestly. Axl isn't the first. Tons of artists complain about dealing with the labels. Most just don't have the money and pull Axl had to fight them. Most just have to swallow it and do what they gotta do.

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4 hours ago, Apollo said:

Unless you've chatted with Axl and he told you this, then your post is pure speculation with a HUGE pro-Axl bias. 

If he turned in an album full of songs like Scraped, Silkworms and Shacklers then you can't blame the label for saying it wasn't good enough. Look how Axl overproduced and layered CD to death. Maybe his original album was like that. 12 songs just liked scraped.

You are assuming Axl gave them gold. He might have gave them sh*t. 

"They kept rejecting albums"....what? How many albums did the reject?

And doesn't that contradict the fact that the label was begging Axl for music for years? Didn't they offer one producer a million dollar bonus if he could get an album from Axl?

And you can't dismiss the dollar amount because some of it was for room or equipment rental. That's not how it works. The album cost what it cost. Using your logic the album didn't take 13 years to make either because we can't count the days Axl spent not working on it. He spent a week on vacation in 2004 - substract those days.  Etc. 

I like you Wasted. But holy cow. The way you spin everything into not being Axl's fault is pretty amazing. 

Somehow other major bands are able to work with their labels and release albums. Have you heard the last couple Metallica albums? Bon Jovi. Def Leppard. Megadeth. Big name bands are able to release albums at will. Axl seems to be the only dude who can't "handle" working with a label. 

True, what Axl was doing was crazy. Most people would advised to do a hard rock album at least. Not get the NIN producer in. 

But it's fact the label rejected albums in 99 and 2000. They suggested working on it more (Tommy).

After Costanzo worked on it in 2004 that's when they wanted it.   And it would have sold okay in 2004.

Why doesn't Axl just release albums?

phrased another way, because he couldn't make an album the label wanted to release as GNR. Or didn't. 

And they felt like they had time to do it again. They wanted to sell more, they thought they would easily sell 4 mil, and easily make back the 14 mil they blew on it. 

By the end of 2000 they had racked up the 14 mil. They weren't in the constantly studio from 2001 to 2008. 2004 there was a session that was fruitful, Ron in 2006 finished it off. 

Yes, like Megadave and Bon jovi sticking to the formula or closer to hard rock would have been a better idea to most people. Axl's point was it was hard to do that without Slash. So he went another way. 

But I think that when that 99 album was rejected for being too raw and having no single (zutaut) and then re-recording it for 10 mil dollars then Ezrin saying it's not ready to mix. That has a knock on effect. 

 
"I think [Jimmy] Iovine put Roy Thomas Baker in the producer seat, because he didn't think the raw sounds [on the Sean Beavan album] were good enough." (Tommy, Bass Player, 04/09)
 

"Every time that we thought that we had the correct songs, then somebody [in the record company] thought that we could make it better." (Axl, Rock & Pop FM, 01/22/01)

"It was a bummer. Most of the songs that are on the record now were done 10 fucking years ago. But all the talking heads in the mix were saying, “Make ’em sound better! Make ’em sound better!” So we kept redoing this and that." (Tommy, AV Club, 05/19/11)

 

Bob Ezrin: 'Axl, we are not ready to mix this record. This record isn’t ready to be mixed. There are two great songs on it and I know that you’re capable of more, that’s the reason why I’m here. You’re such a great talent and I would do you a disservice if I didn’t tell you the truth, which is that most of the songs aren’t great. But I‘m very happy to help you get there and I believe that it’s possible, if you would like to continue to work on the record, to make it better.'

Axl: 'I don’t agree with that. We are ready to mix.' 
Bob Ezrin: 'You have my number, if you change your mind let me know, but I have a dinner party at home now and I had to go.'

I left and I haven’t heard from him since."  (Bob Ezrin, HitChannel, 04/12/12)


 
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4 hours ago, J Dog said:

People complain and bitch about record labels all the time. Since the beginning of the music business honestly. Axl isn't the first. Tons of artists complain about dealing with the labels. Most just don't have the money and pull Axl had to fight them. Most just have to swallow it and do what they gotta do.

Like release albums and share music with their fans?

What has Axl used his own money to fight the label over? Axl has released one album of new material in the last 25 years. And he didn't like how it went down so he refused to promote it. Yea, bruh. Sounds like Axl and his fans are winning. 

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23 minutes ago, Apollo said:

Like release albums and share music with their fans?

What has Axl used his own money to fight the label over? Axl has released one album of new material in the last 25 years. And he didn't like how it went down so he refused to promote it. Yea, bruh. Sounds like Axl and his fans are winning. 

Yes, they released music for their fans. Axl didn't except for one album. I never said any different. Never said his way was the right way.

I meant used his money to fight them more in the way of... he's fucking loaded and can say I don't need your money so I don't have to do this or that.

I didn't say anything about anybody winning bruh. I didn't even say Axl was right. Just pointed out that many, many artists have went to war with record labels since the beginning of record labels. If many of them had been in the position to tell the labels go fuck themselves they would have. That's not just an Axl thing. He just dealt with it in his own batshit crazy way. 

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It is true that record companies are often at war with their artists, but this rarely results in the retirement of that artist as a creative act which effectively is what has happened to Axl Rose, i.e. one album in twenty-five years. Usually the quarrels relate to albums receiving little promotion/financial support, or interference with that act's creative vision - famously Geffen sued Neil Young for making albums that do not sound like Neil Young albums. Of course, if there is a disagreement, acts can shift record companies and resume releasing albums elsewhere; Chuck Berry for instance famously departed Chess for Mercury only to return to Chess a few years later. (Sometimes also acts signed to independents are drawn to the bigger labels, e.g. Presley's move from Sun to RCA).

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It did seem tit-for-tat in a way. They reject Axl, Axl rejects them. 

I don't get why Axl didn't put it out in 2004 when Bucket was still onboard. They gave him ultimatum, if you don't deliver we put out GH. So I guess they were happy with the Costanzo tracks like Shacklers, If the world, Scraped, Sorry - all those Bucket tracks. Better was also done in 2004. 

I wonder if Axl dodged VR? 

I love Ron's rythmn on Chi dem but did they really add much to the 2004 album? Losing Bucket was a disaster. 

2006 Axl was pretty fired up though. But cd sales were dipping. I doubt the label cared at this point. Azoff I think was more into the reunion aspect than CD release. 

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56 minutes ago, wasted said:

Losing Bucket was a disaster. 

Big time.

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is true that record companies are often at war with their artists, but this rarely results in the retirement of that artist as a creative act which effectively is what has happened to Axl Rose, i.e. one album in twenty-five years.

Absolutely. Which is kind of goes with my batshit crazy comment.

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"What really happened was the record company stood back and left Axl to his own devices. Axl had all these ideas, and he needed somebody to help interpret what he wanted. He had to basically produce himself, and that’s not what he went into this wanting to do. There are a lot of reasons the album took so long to make, but I think the record company really dropped the ball on this one." (Tommy, Bass Player, 04/09)

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Perhaps it's not just one reason. It's Axl, it's the label, it's lawsuits, etc.

 

The question I sometimes ask myself is: if some other musician was going through the same shit, not Axl, even someone from Tool or Trent, with the same goal of putting together something like Chinese, how long?

 

My guess is maybe not quite as long as it took Axl. Not that it's really a fair comparison, but while I'm convinced all the other shit, not recording the album, had a lot to do with the delays.

I still think Axl took his time like always. He wanted to delay Illusions. And what about now? he admitted CD ll is done for a while now. So what's he waiting for? to tour some more? see if they get along?

Everything is going well now with Guns and still he said in the China exchange interview soon is not the word. Why is that? maybe he doesn't know when it will be good enough and when the time will be right for a release.

The fact he said Slash can play on it if he's interested to me means it's never done until it's released. Even if it's been done for 15 years.

Axl does tinker for years. It's not a myth. It wasn't the only reason for the Chinese delays but maybe it's the main one.

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They should use some of that NITL tour money, hire a studio, get Axl to pull his head out of his arse and leave the tinkering at home and self fund a 12 track GN'R record.

Fuck the leftover Chinese stuff, it is probably tied up in lawsuits over ownership with the record company anyway. 

They could take 3 months to write and record, then back on tour playing new songs and creating hype for the record while it is mixed and mastered.

They don't need a label to do it, just the motivation. Hopefully they have all this covered, people won't pay 100s of dollars to watch a 90s setlist forever.....

 

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On October 23, 2016 at 8:52 AM, Apollo said:

Had Axl ever been asked and has he ever responded to those types of questions? Surely one journalist has brought it up  

One album in 25 years, but you've talked about having tons of music recorded and in the can. How come you don't want to share that music with your fans? 

How come you spent so much time  working on - and tinkering and adding so many layers to the CD songs? Most people think that rawer versions of the songs were much better than the final version. Why did that happen? Do you see yourself as a perfectionist? Lazy? Scared the fans wouldn't like the songs?

Basically - what's your explanation of spending 13 years and 14 million dollars on one album?

to make the ultimate comedown record. It's the morning after music.

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3 hours ago, Rovim said:

Perhaps it's not just one reason. It's Axl, it's the label, it's lawsuits, etc.

 

The question I sometimes ask myself is: if some other musician was going through the same shit, not Axl, even someone from Tool or Trent, with the same goal of putting together something like Chinese, how long?

 

My guess is maybe not quite as long as it took Axl. Not that it's really a fair comparison, but while I'm convinced all the other shit, not recording the album, had a lot to do with the delays.

I still think Axl took his time like always. He wanted to delay Illusions. And what about now? he admitted CD ll is done for a while now. So what's he waiting for? to tour some more? see if they get along?

Everything is going well now with Guns and still he said in the China exchange interview soon is not the word. Why is that? maybe he doesn't know when it will be good enough and when the time will be right for a release.

The fact he said Slash can play on it if he's interested to me means it's never done until it's released. Even if it's been done for 15 years.

Axl does tinker for years. It's not a myth. It wasn't the only reason for the Chinese delays but maybe it's the main one.

I think some of delays are about rec comp expectations and the whole situation. Other bands werent expected to sell 20 mil copies or didn't have high profile members quit. Tool aren't expected to sell like Guns. 

I kind of wonder how long it would take NIN to make AFD meets Nevermind? Trent hires Gilby Clarke and Pat Smear to get the job done. Everytime he hands in a record the rec comp says it's not right and what are you doing, call Finck!

Another thing is that they often re-recorded because a guitarist left. Not because Axl just wanted to on a whim. 

But you have to wonder if the freedom they had of open ended studio time and just the approach of recording hours of music just spread the net too wide. They had 32 songs in the end. I guess you don't get generic music like that but it was like starting too far away from the beginning. 

It's reassuring that Axl now wants to work from lyrics and melody again though. Slash can just work off the basic song. 

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16 hours ago, wasted said:

I think some of delays are about rec comp expectations and the whole situation. Other bands werent expected to sell 20 mil copies or didn't have high profile members quit. Tool aren't expected to sell like Guns. 

I kind of wonder how long it would take NIN to make AFD meets Nevermind? Trent hires Gilby Clarke and Pat Smear to get the job done. Everytime he hands in a record the rec comp says it's not right and what are you doing, call Finck!

Another thing is that they often re-recorded because a guitarist left. Not because Axl just wanted to on a whim. 

But you have to wonder if the freedom they had of open ended studio time and just the approach of recording hours of music just spread the net too wide. They had 32 songs in the end. I guess you don't get generic music like that but it was like starting too far away from the beginning. 

It's reassuring that Axl now wants to work from lyrics and melody again though. Slash can just work off the basic song. 

It's more of a November Rain situation or could be, I agree. If Axl does in fact has 3 albums worth of material with lyrics and vocal melodies, Slash can just record all his leads and ideas on top of 50 songs and Axl uses what he likes and if Bucket and Robin came up with a perfect idea already that Slash didn't top, it stays.

in 5 years time Axl can release an album with 14 tunes made up from what sounds right and cohesive with context. Duff can probably make it tighter and with his signature sound.

In theory Chinese was always a combination of lots of styles so adding Slash shouldn't be that hard. It seems Axl is still going with the Chinese material, at least mainly he's gonna center it around what was already written?

Maybe Duff and Slash can convince Axl to release it after it's done with their work on it like Robin did with This I Love and Slash and Duff with Illusions. But he's still gonna go through his slow process, putting it together carefully and then waiting for the right deal and promotion.

He has everything he needs now to release an album in the near future. (4 to 6 years) the benefits of the Chinese era and the vault, Slash and Duff, and the acceptance of this line up.

 

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2 hours ago, Rovim said:

It's more of a November Rain situation or could be, I agree. If Axl does in fact has 3 albums worth of material with lyrics and vocal melodies, Slash can just record all his leads and ideas on top of 50 songs and Axl uses what he likes and if Bucket and Robin came up with a perfect idea already that Slash didn't top, it stays.

in 5 years time Axl can release an album with 14 tunes made up from what sounds right and cohesive with context. Duff can probably make it tighter and with his signature sound.

In theory Chinese was always a combination of lots of styles so adding Slash shouldn't be that hard. It seems Axl is still going with the Chinese material, at least mainly he's gonna center it around what was already written?

Maybe Duff and Slash can convince Axl to release it after it's done with their work on it like Robin did with This I Love and Slash and Duff with Illusions. But he's still gonna go through his slow process, putting it together carefully and then waiting for the right deal and promotion.

He has everything he needs now to release an album in the near future. (4 to 6 years) the benefits of the Chinese era and the vault, Slash and Duff, and the acceptance of this line up.

 

It does seem like he has his material that he showed to them. I assume they would want to bring some songs themselves. Maybe they are trying to morph slowly away from CD. So not soon. 

The good thing is CD covered the costs so if Slash and Duff do just add parts etc to a set group of songs it's all profit for the rec comp. They don't really need a deal to might it fly but an iTunes exclusive might get them studio and video money.

I can't see Axl just throwing away his songs that he wanted to put out. He'll be looking to get Slash to make them better or something. 

But it does seem like it doesn't matter really. If they do or not. What they did already cemented their status. I don't think CD really changed much. 

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47 minutes ago, wasted said:

It does seem like he has his material that he showed to them. I assume they would want to bring some songs themselves. Maybe they are trying to morph slowly away from CD. So not soon. 

The good thing is CD covered the costs so if Slash and Duff do just add parts etc to a set group of songs it's all profit for the rec comp. They don't really need a deal to might it fly but an iTunes exclusive might get them studio and video money.

I can't see Axl just throwing away his songs that he wanted to put out. He'll be looking to get Slash to make them better or something. 

But it does seem like it doesn't matter really. If they do or not. What they did already cemented their status. I don't think CD really changed much. 

Maybe not but it's good to hear Slash fuckin' wailing on Better, This I Love, Catcher, Sorry, etc. If they don't release another album, what they did is already the best, but it will be a shame cause why not do it if Axl is saying again and again that he would like to release more Guns music?

How Slash and Duff took it upon themselves to learn the songs and the way it sounds live makes me think that the best chance of another great Guns album is in Axl's vault plus a few tunes that represents Slash and Duff more. Axl has labored over CD ll and the rest of the AAA material in the vault. The tough work is done for the most part. It ain't gonna be disposable.

I think Slash can make it better, Axl can choose to rerecord some vocals and add rasp. Way easier than what they faced after Illusions. This band doesn't get many situations like that where they have something to build on.

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2 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Maybe not but it's good to hear Slash fuckin' wailing on Better, This I Love, Catcher, Sorry, etc. If they don't release another album, what they did is already the best, but it will be a shame cause why not do it if Axl is saying again and again that he would like to release more Guns music?

How Slash and Duff took it upon themselves to learn the songs and the way it sounds live makes me think that the best chance of another great Guns album is in Axl's vault plus a few tunes that represents Slash and Duff more. Axl has labored over CD ll and the rest of the AAA material in the vault. The tough work is done for the most part. It ain't gonna be disposable.

I think Slash can make it better, Axl can choose to rerecord some vocals and add rasp. Way easier than what they faced after Illusions. This band doesn't get many situations like that where they have something to build on.

True Slash doesn't have to wait for Axl to finish. It just needs polishing off. 

I think a combo as different as Scraped and Sorry could just about fit in. Automatic Overdrive II on CD II. 

 

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18 minutes ago, wasted said:

True Slash doesn't have to wait for Axl to finish. It just needs polishing off. 

I think a combo as different as Scraped and Sorry could just about fit in. Automatic Overdrive II on CD II. 

 

Safari of destruction round 1. Slash plays a jazzy chord on Atlas Shrugged.

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On October 26, 2016 at 4:39 AM, wasted said:

True Slash doesn't have to wait for Axl to finish. It just needs polishing off. 

I think a combo as different as Scraped and Sorry could just about fit in. Automatic Overdrive II on CD II. 

 

slash and duff should really get with it and get the record finished. We all know axl has it done for a while. So he's nice enough to allow duff and slash To play on songs they had no hand in writing and here they are yet again holding up the bands evolutionary artistic progression.

12 hours ago, wasted said:

Black Sabbath riff and Beltrami orchestra, Slash on Jimmy Page duty. 

Let me be the first to acknowledge that I was wrong about the jimmy page joining gnr rumor that was swirling around since bumble's departure.

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