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how good is Garden of Eden


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11 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Read the explanations. Slash wanted a big guitar heavy sound. You can get that by recording two gtrs only left and right, but the more effective method is doubling left and right. Izzy didn't want to overdub his parts because he thought it was good as it was and he also wanted a rawer sound closer  to AFD... But UYI wasn't / isn't AFD so that just wouldn't have worked on all the songs. I wish Izzy was mixed a little higher on the illusions albums. I love the interplay on AFD: UYI for the most part lacked that because Slash had to overdub Izzy's parts.

So Slash HAD to do what he did with Izzy's guitar on Use Your Illusion?

For 20-some years I was under the impression that Slash did what he did because he CHOSE to do it.

Now that you clarified the subject I am kinda sorry for Slash!

Can you imagine how hard that was for him?

He HAD to destroy the guitar interplay

He HAD to record his guitars all over the place

He HAD to put Izzys guitar lower on the mix!

He even HAD to erase and redo some Izzys parts!

Poor guy!

:rofl-lol:

 

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1 minute ago, ludurigan said:

So Slash HAD to do what he did with Izzy's guitar on Use Your Illusion?

For 20-some years I was under the impression that Slash did what he did because he CHOSE to do it.

Now that you clarified the subject I am kinda sorry for Slash!

Can you imagine how hard that was for him?

He HAD to destroy the guitar interplay

He HAD to record his guitars all over the place

He HAD to put Izzys guitar lower on the mix!

He even HAD to erase and redo some Izzys parts!

Poor guy!

:rofl-lol:

 

Hey, if that's how you choose to interpret what I was saying, fire right ahead!

He chose to overdub, because Izzy chose not to overdub his own parts. There isn't much more to the story. Overdubbing parts is the norm as has been for years, Perfectly reasonable for Slash to ask Izzy to do it, and perfectly reasonable for Slash to do it himself once Izzy declined. End of.

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1 minute ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

Axl has real flow - like natural flow at a high level rap flow 

He seems like it just spit all that shit out on the improv. He should have done some major rap duo's with public enemy nwa and ice t as the rock music goes hand in hand with that early 90's bump. 

exactly -- axl should have recorded rap (and rock and whatever he felt like recording) cause he was the best singer (ever) for so many years

same for guns n roses -- to this day i cant believe that the best band ever recorded no more than 5 albums

i also cant believe how 20-some years later they get so very fucking close to a reunion -- but instead they will have these 4 whatever people onstage and no izzy and no steven

how smart is all that?

 

 

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23 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

exactly -- axl should have recorded rap (and rock and whatever he felt like recording) cause he was the best singer (ever) for so many years

same for guns n roses -- to this day i cant believe that the best band ever recorded no more than 5 albums

i also cant believe how 20-some years later they get so very fucking close to a reunion -- but instead they will have these 4 whatever people onstage and no izzy and no steven

how smart is all that?

 

 

they are top for what they were and sounded like from 86-90 

ridiculous how tinkered and delineated it got

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I dont really get this whole "big sounding" thing they (at least Axl) wanted for UYI. All i hear is properly mic'd guitars and drums with a shit ton of artificial sounding reverb on the drums, and reverb on Slashs guitars. Oh and saloon cock rock piano playing by Dizzy and Axl on the non ballads. But I will say that Duffs tone is killer. 

Edited by Mendez
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3 hours ago, Mendez said:

I dont really get this whole "big sounding" thing they (at least Axl) wanted for UYI. All i hear is properly mic'd guitars and drums with a shit ton of artificial sounding reverb on the drums, and reverb on Slashs guitars. Oh and saloon cock rock piano playing by Dizzy and Axl on the non ballads. But I will say that Duffs tone is killer. 

Yeah, the honky tonk piani wrecks some of the rockers. And 14 years would be better off without it. They should have also done the extended ending on that song, the demo version sounded amazing.

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It's a good song. Not great to me, but I could see why some might think it's great. Lots of things I like about it.

Probably the fastest paced song they ever did. Another example of why I say that the "filler" is what made the UYI so great. Pretty much every one of the "fillers" is unique in the catalogue (Izzy singing, Duff singing, Axl rapping a mile a minute, whatever. But that was a different thread. Sorry). 

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20 hours ago, Tom2112 said:

Hey, if that's how you choose to interpret what I was saying, fire right ahead!

He chose to overdub, because Izzy chose not to overdub his own parts. There isn't much more to the story. Overdubbing parts is the norm as has been for years, Perfectly reasonable for Slash to ask Izzy to do it, and perfectly reasonable for Slash to do it himself once Izzy declined. End of.

So Slash chose to "OVERDUB".

Is that really it?

I didnt know it was like that.

Over the years I have read interviews where Izzy said OTHER THINGS

He never mentions "OVERDUBBING"

Hey, maybe you could check it out as well!

It took me a while to find this one, but it is informative.

On this 1993 interview Izzy gives his point of view on what happened to his tracks on Use Your Illusion.

Would you call that OVERDUBBING?

===

Guitar Player: When did you realize you had to leave Guns N' Roses?

Stradlin: During the last three months I spent on tour with them, it was growing increasingly tough for us to get onstage on time and finish a gig without some sort of interruption. Things were just out of control. In the early days I had some sort of balancing factor in the band, and we'd discuss things. But towards the end, I was less and less spoken to about decisions. I'm sure a lot of it s my own doing, because those last few months were so chaotic that I took a sideline position. I didn't want to be wrapped up in all the madness.

GP: Was there much creative tension between you and Slash?

S:
 On the last record I wasn't around for the mixes, and when they finished them you really don't hear my guitar at all. It was just a big Les Paul through a Marshall sound on most of the songs. Live, it got to the point where I didn't even know if the audience could hear my guitar. I was playing, and my amp was on about 8 or 9 to keep up with everybody else. We were a really loud band; so loud you can t imagine--even at rehearsals.

 

 

FULL INTERVIEW GUITAR PLAYER MAGAZINE 1993 = http://www.snakepit.org/guitar_mag.html

 

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I hold it up as one of the highlights of UYI.

If I had my druthers, it would have opened the first album. Completely taking the place of Right Next Door, a song I never cared for and always thought of as under-realized.

Garden of Eden is like a runaway train. I adore the music video too. So punk rock. Love the song-along!

 

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1 hour ago, ludurigan said:

So Slash chose to "OVERDUB".

Is that really it?

I didnt know it was like that.

Over the years I have read interviews where Izzy said OTHER THINGS

He never mentions "OVERDUBBING"

Hey, maybe you could check it out as well!

It took me a while to find this one, but it is informative.

On this 1993 interview Izzy gives his point of view on what happened to his tracks on Use Your Illusion.

Would you call that OVERDUBBING?

===

Guitar Player: When did you realize you had to leave Guns N' Roses?

Stradlin: During the last three months I spent on tour with them, it was growing increasingly tough for us to get onstage on time and finish a gig without some sort of interruption. Things were just out of control. In the early days I had some sort of balancing factor in the band, and we'd discuss things. But towards the end, I was less and less spoken to about decisions. I'm sure a lot of it s my own doing, because those last few months were so chaotic that I took a sideline position. I didn't want to be wrapped up in all the madness.

GP: Was there much creative tension between you and Slash?

S:
 On the last record I wasn't around for the mixes, and when they finished them you really don't hear my guitar at all. It was just a big Les Paul through a Marshall sound on most of the songs. Live, it got to the point where I didn't even know if the audience could hear my guitar. I was playing, and my amp was on about 8 or 9 to keep up with everybody else. We were a really loud band; so loud you can t imagine--even at rehearsals.

 

 

FULL INTERVIEW GUITAR PLAYER MAGAZINE 1993 = http://www.snakepit.org/guitar_mag.html

 

I'm not saying Slash HAD to do anything. but, In order for gnr to get the big sound that the majority of the band wanted overdubbing was necessary. As far as the mix goes, Izzy is right! You can't really hear him, it's definitely not a 50/50 split. IMO slash should have overdubbed the parts, but, at all times Izzy's main guitar part should have been mixed higher than his overdubbed version. Slash could of had right and centre and Izzy could have been panned left.

I don't dislike the end result but I understand where he's (Izzy) coming from.

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3 hours ago, appetite4illusions said:

I hold it up as one of the highlights of UYI.

If I had my druthers, it would have opened the first album. Completely taking the place of Right Next Door, a song I never cared for and always thought of as under-realized.

Garden of Eden is like a runaway train. I adore the music video too. So punk rock. Love the song-along!

 

It's definitely a song geared more for the AFD crowd which is why I found the "filler" criticism a bit perplexing. The song rocks hard and never lets up -- it's very much a GnR song through and through. 

Even the much maligned bubble effects contribute to the insane vibe of the song when taken into context with the video. That whole song + video crack me up. I'm laughing with the song though not at it (see My World). 

Disagree on RNDTH though -- that song along with GOE and Perfect Crime are the GnR trilogy of head banging speed metal rockers. They feel like follow-ups to "It's so Easy" -- same punk rock/metal vibe.

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10 hours ago, RONIN said:

It's definitely a song geared more for the AFD crowd which is why I found the "filler" criticism a bit perplexing. The song rocks hard and never lets up -- it's very much a GnR song through and through. 

 

Why perplexing? It's subjective, isn't it? For me this is a filler song simply because I don't like it very much and I could have gone without it. Not because it's fast or whatever, I love fast songs, just not this one. I can totally understand someone else thinking differently about it because they have a different taste and that's cool too.

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On 9/30/2016 at 10:17 AM, Tom2112 said:

Read the explanations. Slash wanted a big guitar heavy sound. You can get that by recording two gtrs only left and right, but the more effective method is doubling left and right. Izzy didn't want to overdub his parts because he thought it was good as it was and he also wanted a rawer sound closer  to AFD... But UYI wasn't / isn't AFD so that just wouldn't have worked on all the songs. I wish Izzy was mixed a little higher on the illusions albums. I love the interplay on AFD: UYI for the most part lacked that because Slash had to overdub Izzy's parts.

the locomotive snippet on here is the best sounding gnr funk progressive perfect vision of music phenomenal stuff 

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'Filler'' is a curious description however as you have to assume that the band created the song to merely ''fill up a side of a record''. You cannot for example equate this same practice with simply writing a shit song, that they all, misguidedly thought was rather good. You equally cannot equate it with creating a song that ended up being ruined through production issues, or indulging in a misguided musical venture. In a sense, with filler, you (the creator) enter the studio foreknowing it is a 'shit song'.

As for ''Garden of Eden'', it is another one of those bad-average Illusion rockers with a breathtakingly good solo. Slash did this constantly on the Illusions, saving songs like ''Get In the Ring'' through the calibre of his leads.

 

 

Edited by DieselDaisy
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On 10/1/2016 at 9:59 PM, Fitha_whiskey said:

 

Probably the fastest paced song they ever did. 

 

No way is it the fastest song they ever did. 

It clocks in at about 212 bpm; compare that to some of the speedy punk stuff they were doing in mid 80s: the rare version of Nice Boys on the Family Tree album is almost 260 bpm. Shadow of Your Love is even faster, about 265 bpm.

Say what you will about Adler, he could drum fuckin fast. 

 

Edited by Nice Boy
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14 minutes ago, Nice Boy said:

 

No way is it the fastest song they ever did. 

It clocks in at about 212 bpm; compare that to some of the speedy punk stuff they were doing in mid 80s: the rare version of Nice Boys on the Family Tree album is almost 260 bpm. Shadow of Your Love is even faster, about 265 bpm.

Sa what you will about Adler, he could drum fuckin fast. 

 

Interesting. Yeah I thought after I posted that Nice Boys was probably faster. I'm surprised Shadow is the fastest. Maybe it's Axl's vocals that make GOE seem so fast.

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3 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

As for ''Garden of Eden'', it is another one of those bad-average Illusion rockers with a breathtakingly good solo. Slash did this constantly on the Illusions, saving songs like ''Get In the Ring'' through the calibre of his leads.

 

 

Ouch. A lot of these Illusion rockers were written in the Appetite era though. UYI is largely comprised of cuts from '85 to '89. What are your favorite Illusion songs Diesel?

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