It's pretty interesting to me how underappreciated the Illusion albums are

[RONIN]

Quote

 

“The problem was with Izzy (Stradlin),” Slash says in the MusicRadar interview. “Because the album reached such gargantuan proportions as far as the production and complexity and the massive expectations [that] Izzy started to bow out. He was harder to find, because that was against his rock ‘n’ roll philosophy, which I totally agree with.”

“We got through the basic tracks and I think that’s what gave the albums such a natural feel. But when we started getting into the time it took to do overdubs and vocals, he sorta disappeared.”

 

Read More: Slash Remembers Difficult Birthing Process for ‘Use Your Illusion’ Albums | http://ultimateclassicrock.com/slash-use-your-illusion-interview/?trackback=tsmclip

[shjtjustgotreal]

On 10/1/2016 at 11:40 AM, NicDwolfwood said:

I dont mind it being underrated. Its when people say shit like "only good album GNR made was Appetite" that pisses me right the fuck off. Like seriously? 

"only the original 5 were great, illusions were shit"  

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

Izzy didn't even care anymore. He wrote his songs and submitted the tapes to Axl back in '89. He was the first guy to turn in his work and he didn't stick around even for the overdubs. Axl is on record saying that the only reason Izzy's songs even appear on UYI is because he wanted them there, Izzy couldn't care less.

Axl actually wanted to further delay the release of UYI -- apparently he had more tinkering left. What tinkering you might ask? Most likely cutting Izzy out of the album completely to screw him out of royalties. He had his chance with Spaghetti Incident where Izzy's parts were deleted in their entirety even though Izzy had recorded most off his rhythm parts for the album already.  

Why Axl would want to do that? To give Slash (and Gilby for TSI) Izzy's share of performing royalties?

Axl more likely wanted to reduce Izzy's share in the partnership, not his publishing royalties.

Half of TSI was recorded after Izzy left, so Izzy had played on 6 songs at the most. They deleted his parts on the songs he had played on probably because they were still pissed off with him.

Edited October 3, 2016 by Blackstar

[Malcolm Malcolm]

22 hours ago, RONIN said:

Exactly. Illusions contains some of Axl's all-time best work from Dead Horse to Don't Damn Me. Those albums are a creative peak for not only him, but the entire band.

With the good ofcourse, comes the bad. Axl's insistence on adding layers upon layers of synth crap into the songs just changed their feel completely. It gave everything a more polished sheen, which was good in the sense that it made the albums seem like a more mature effort -- however, Axl went too far...there is so much overproduction that it makes the songs lose a lot of their edge and vitality. 

The drumming and just the sound of the album from a mixing pov is so crap compared to albums of that era like Nevermind, Ten, Black album, etc. Another instantly dated record from that era was "Dangerous" (Michael Jackson) -- great album, but the same problems: bloated tinny overproduced sound with unnecessary "effects". In retrospect, it highlights how rawer albums from indie rock bands in 1991 made UYI seem out of touch. UYI would have been fine with a minimalist touch, even with the multitude of epic songs. It's the way those songs are produced that completely fucked everything up in the eyes of the critics and fans.

I still love UYI though. UYI 2 tracks like Locomotive and Pretty Tied Up were so promising for the future of the band. It's only in retrospect from the Slash interviews that we know that those songs were just one-off's -- Slash didn't want these types of songs on the '96 follow-up album. I suppose neither did Izzy.

I don't get when a band with a giant budget uses synth strings. It just doesn't sound as good as the real thing.

[RONIN]

18 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Why Axl would want to do that? To give Slash (and Gilby for TSI) Izzy's share of performing royalties?

Because he's a vindictive guy. He has mentioned in interviews about not wanting to include Finck in CD after he quit. Thankfully, he was talked out of that stupid idea.

Axl more likely wanted to reduce Izzy's share in the partnership, not his publishing royalties.

Axl and the rest of the band already bought Izzy out of his partnership percentage. I don't know if it was @justanurchin or someone else who put up some of the details of the partnership buyout, but iirc there is something screwy with Izzy's cut of royalties on UYI. Almost like he was already being diminished by the band percentage wise before the buyout. Could be mistaken but it seemed to appear that way.

Point being, things were getting so heated and emotional in the band that it wouldn't surprise me at all if they tried to diminish Izzy's cut by taking him off TSI. There is already precedent for this with how they treated Steven Adler.

Half of TSI was recorded after Izzy left, so Izzy had played on 6 songs at the most. They deleted his parts on the songs he had played on probably because they were still pissed off with him.

Agreed. If you remember those Double Talkin' Jive rants from the UYI tour -- Axl sure had a lot of bitching to do about Izzy. All because he told Axl to show up on time to shows or he should accept the financial penalties instead of making the rest of the band liable.

 

[Blackstar]

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

Axl and the rest of the band already bought Izzy out of his partnership percentage. I don't know if it was @justanurchin or someone else who put up some of the details of the partnership buyout, but iirc there is something screwy with Izzy's cut of royalties on UYI. Almost like he was already being diminished by the band percentage wise before the buyout. Could be mistaken but it seemed to appear that way.

I posted this  on the Izzy tweet thread after having read the 1992 contract (the document can be found in another forum that claims to have inside info). I added some more info:

On 12/09/2016 at 3:06 AM, Blackstar said:

There is nothing in the contract about Izzy selling his share. It is known that he sold it, but there's no mention of it in the document, apparently because there was a separate arrangement.

From what I understand:

- The first partnership was established when the band got signed by Geffen, with Axl, Slash, Izzy, Duff and Steven being equal partners with 20% each; this is interesting, because, based on Slash's book, I thought, as many others, that Axl had 25% and Steven 15%, but apparently those percentages Slash mentioned were referring only to publishing rights (i.e. revenues from songwriting and performing credit) and not to their shares in the partnership.

- Steven was demoted to an employee before been fired in March 1990, and the partnership reformed as a partnership of 4 equal members (25% each). Izzy quit that reformed first partnership.

- The new partnership of Axl, Slash and Duff, established with the 1992 contract, was effective in retrospect from the day after Izzy quit (Sept. 10 1991 according to the document). From that day to the day the contract was signed, the profits were considered as having been split equally between the 3. From the day of the signature, the shares would be 36 1/3 Axl, 33 1/3 Slash, 30 1/3 Duff. Those shares included profits from record selling, touring revenues, merchandising profits and 'miscellaneous' revenues. The publishing profits would be divided in respect to songwriting and performing credits.

- If a partner quit or was expelled from the partnership, he would have to sell his share equally to the other partners. He would continue to receive, though, the profits from record sales that corresponded to the share he had in the partnership, unless he would quit in the middle of a tour (in such case he would receive profits corresponding to half of his percentage). These wouldn't apply to Izzy, because he wasn't a member of the new partnership (but probably there were similar predictions in the first partnership contract).

- According to the contract, Izzy and Steven would continue to receive their share (20%) from the "old records profits" (meaning AFD and Lies, which were recorded and released during the first partnership). Izzy would also have to receive (it isn't mentioned, but it can be assumed) his 25% share for the shows of the Illusion tour that took place the time he was an equal member of the first partnership (probably that was the money he was owed).

- The Illusions were released after the date the new partnership of the 3 was effective. This means that Izzy would receive only publishing profits from them.

- All the decisions regarding the management of the band should have the signatures of Axl and Slash. If there was disagreement between them, Duff would be involved in the decision making and a majority of 2 would be needed. A unanimous vote of the 3 would be needed in the case of accepting another person as partner. In the case of expulsion of a partner, the signatures of the other 2 would be needed.

- There were predictions of what would happen if a partner died or was disabled due to health problems.

- If 2 of the partners quit, it would be obligatory for the partnership to dissolve, liquidate its assets and split the profit equally to the 3 partners.

- The infamous clause which granted Axl the name in case he quit or was expelled was probably a later 1993 addition (according to the Chinese Whispers info and Duff's book).

When Izzy left the Illusions must have been already in the process of printing.

The new contract/partnership agreement drawn up in September 1992 (a year after Izzy left) and signed by Slash and Duff in October 1992 (on different dates - Axl's signature doesn't have a date) was effective retrospectively from the day after Izzy's departure. Hence, till the day he left, Izzy had his 25% share in the partnership. According to the contract, Izzy would receive his publishing profits from the Illusions (in respect to songwriting and performing credits), but not the royalties deriving from his partnership percentage (apparently the reasoning behind it was that he had quit the partnership and sold his share 10 days before the release of the albums). Izzy has said his lawyers later made an arrangement for him to receive part of his share royalties.

1 hour ago, RONIN said:

If you remember those Double Talkin' Jive rants from the UYI tour -- Axl sure had a lot of bitching to do about Izzy. All because he told Axl to show up on time to shows or he should accept the financial penalties instead of making the rest of the band liable.

Axl was ranting because from his POV Izzy had abandoned him and the band, and probably he thought so because he didn't insist with the contract which would reduce Izzy's royalties after Izzy had refused to sign it.

Edited October 4, 2016 by Blackstar

[Apollo]

On October 1, 2016 at 1:40 PM, NicDwolfwood said:

I dont mind it being underrated. Its when people say shit like "only good album GNR made was Appetite" that pisses me right the fuck off. Like seriously? 

 

Illusions aren't underrated. They did what they did, they are what they are. Non-diehard fans not liking the non-singles as much as diehard fans doesn't mean they are underrated. It means casual GnR fans don't like the same songs that diehard fans like.

*****

Why let other people's opinions bother you? Music is all subjective.  Personal preference. 

I love GnR. My favorite band of all time. 

All I care about is how much I like them. Who gives a flying f*ck if somebody else doesn't like them?

Do you get pissed off if somebody doesn't like the same type of pizza that you like? Or the same movies you like?

Love what you love, bruh. Don't worry what other people like or don't like. 

[Modano09]

On 10/3/2016 at 0:24 AM, RONIN said:

Izzy didn't even care anymore. He wrote his songs and submitted the tapes to Axl back in '89. He was the first guy to turn in his work and he didn't stick around even for the overdubs. Axl is on record saying that the only reason Izzy's songs even appear on UYI is because he wanted them there, Izzy couldn't care less.

Axl actually wanted to further delay the release of UYI -- apparently he had more tinkering left. What tinkering you might ask? Most likely cutting Izzy out of the album completely to screw him out of royalties. He had his chance with Spaghetti Incident where Izzy's parts were deleted in their entirety even though Izzy had recorded most off his rhythm parts for the album already.  

So on one hand you openly admit Izzy couldn't care less, and on the other hand suggest he was going to be unfairly cut out of the album to screw him out of royalties. 

Edited October 5, 2016 by Modano09

[A.J.]

On ‎02‎.‎10‎.‎2016 at 6:27 PM, Crazyman said:

This still boggles my mind. First single in more than 2 years, featured in the year's biggest movie, featuring Arnie in the music video, released right in the middle of a successful tour, etc.

I know YCBM isn't the most radio friendly song but you would think with all that momentum it would break the top 20 at least. Summer '91 wasn't a strong time for music either...not a lot of 'superstars' released singles until later that year. 

Just for the record: Only the US, Canada and Japan didn't seem to like You Could Be Mine. It's been a top ten hit in many other countries including Germany (#5) and the UK (#3). Knockin' On Heaven's Door even made it to #2 in the UK. In fact, 6 singles made it into the UK's top ten, only Civil War failed to do so at #11. It was simply not an easy time for rock music in the US back then, as far as I remember. Unless you kept it simple...

[Darkenchantress]

How can someone not like YCBM? It's my favorite song from the UYIs hands down, but again, it's so "Appetite" and I love simple things.

[RONIN]

5 hours ago, Modano09 said:

So on one hand you openly admit Izzy couldn't care less, and on the other hand suggest he was going to be unfairly cut out of the album to screw him out of royalties. 

So not caring about whether your songs end up on an album according to you indicates that you don't care about being financially cut out of the brand and product you helped create. Interesting logic.

 

[double talkin jive mfkr]

On 10/1/2016 at 7:48 AM, estranged_85 said:

The Illusions contains one of the best lyrics ever written IMO.

ya that would be november rain, don't cry and estranged in that order 

[Modano09]

28 minutes ago, RONIN said:

So not caring about whether your songs end up on an album according to you indicates that you don't care about being financially cut out of the brand and product you helped create. Interesting logic.

 

Just another example of Izzy wanting to work as much or as little as he feels like while making as much as everyone working more. 

[Len Cnut]

I don't think they're underrated, they have a few very well known songs on em and some great moments and other average ones, they are rated as good solid rock n roll albums and thats what they are, they certainly don't deserve to be in any kind of top 10.  And thats not an insult, a goof solid rock n roll album to me is worth its weight in gold and I've heard each of them about a million times over but they are what they are and they're pretty appropriately rated.

[Silverburst80]

I love them but it was too much to digest for alot of people and as been said before they don't really flow. At the end of the day there's an album/album and a half of great material on there. In hindsight it would have been great to me if they released another sledgehammer of a rock album first with the songs they had and maybe throw November rain or Estranged in. Then maybe waited a year and released a shorter stripped back acoustic album, obviously Izzy's tunes like 14 Years- Dust n Bones-You ain't the first would work great and then you have Yesterdays-The Garden-Don't Cry-November Rain that could be great acoustic tunes and chuck a cover or two in. I suppose with Guns though it could fall apart at any moment and they felt they needed to get as much music out at one time as they could.

[GNRfan2008]

4 hours ago, Darkenchantress said:

How can someone not like YCBM? It's my favorite song from the UYIs hands down, but again, it's so "Appetite" and I love simple things.

 

YCBM always gets me fired up. If only there were bands today creating a song that good. 

[ZoSoRose]

I don't think they're overlooked. NR, Don't Cry, Civil War, LALD, Knockin, and YCBM a.. get regular radio airplay and are all well known tunes. Plus the albums sold like a zillion copies each. They just aren't AfD, but that doesn't mean they aren't big

[RONIN]

On 10/4/2016 at 5:53 PM, Blackstar said:

I posted this  on the Izzy tweet thread after having read the 1992 contract (the document can be found in another forum that claims to have inside info). I added some more info:

When Izzy left the Illusions must have been already in the process of printing.

The new contract/partnership agreement drawn up in September 1992 (a year after Izzy left) and signed by Slash and Duff in October 1992 (on different dates - Axl's signature doesn't have a date) was effective retrospectively from the day after Izzy's departure. Hence, till the day he left, Izzy had his 25% share in the partnership. According to the contract, Izzy would receive his publishing profits from the Illusions (in respect to songwriting and performing credits), but not the royalties deriving from his partnership percentage (apparently the reasoning behind it was that he had quit the partnership and sold his share 10 days before the release of the albums). Izzy has said his lawyers later made an arrangement for him to receive part of his share royalties.

Axl was ranting because from his POV Izzy had abandoned him and the band, and probably he thought so because he didn't insist with the contract which would reduce Izzy's royalties after Izzy had refused to sign it.

Excellent post.  I suppose the reason Izzy decided to tour with GnR while Gilby was injured was for a release of the payout from his share of UYI royalties...

I think losing Izzy was probably a huge shock to Axl -- his closest friend and co-songwriter departing at possibly the pinnacle of their career and fame. It's too bad he didn't fight hard enough to keep Izzy in the band. Or maybe Axl just didn't think Izzy would walk away and Izzy ended up calling his bluff. In a way, I'm glad the band didn't release records in the 90's with replacements like Gilby and/or Paul Tobias -- it would have just diminished their legacy, especially with the kind of crap music Axl was into at the time. 

5 hours ago, Modano09 said:

Just another example of Izzy wanting to work as much or as little as he feels like while making as much as everyone working more. 

How so? The guy turned in his work 2 years ahead of schedule while Axl was getting his palms read by Yoda and Duff/Slash were drinking themselves to death. Sounds to me like Izzy actually got shit done. He showed up to the Chicago sessions and after seeing Axl's antics, turned around and flew straight back to Indiana. 

Nobody was considering his input in the band anymore. The one guy he trusted (Niven) was fired and new management was basically an extension of Axl's entourage. Needless to say, Axl and Slash were actively diminishing his role in the band -- not consulting him on the videos, drowning out his guitar in the UYI mixes -- hell, not even telling him what the album tracklisting would be (my world). No wonder he felt totally alienated. But I guess in your world, that just means he was being lazy and therefore deserves to have a smaller role in the band.

You think too much in black/white modano. Remember only the sith deal in absolutes.

[NicDwolfwood]

21 hours ago, Apollo said:

 

Illusions aren't underrated. They did what they did, they are what they are. Non-diehard fans not liking the non-singles as much as diehard fans doesn't mean they are underrated. It means casual GnR fans don't like the same songs that diehard fans like.

*****

Why let other people's opinions bother you? Music is all subjective.  Personal preference. 

I love GnR. My favorite band of all time. 

All I care about is how much I like them. Who gives a flying f*ck if somebody else doesn't like them?

Do you get pissed off if somebody doesn't like the same type of pizza that you like? Or the same movies you like?

Love what you love, bruh. Don't worry what other people like or don't like. 

I never said they were. the OP stated he feels they are underrated or under appreciated. I said It doesnt matter to me whether they are or not. I enjoy the albums regardless of what people think or say. 

Some people dismiss them completely because they didnt like the singles, so therefore in their mind, the rest of the songs are invalidated or some shit like that. That upsets me, I dont mind people disliking it, but you better have a sensible reason not to. But thats it. It doesnt bend me out of shape that much, dont get it twisted. I like what I like regardless of anyone else's opinions. I've been listening to GNR, even when it wasnt even in fashion and all people did was talk shit about the band. 

[RONIN]

7 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I don't think they're underrated, they have a few very well known songs on em and some great moments and other average ones, they are rated as good solid rock n roll albums and thats what they are, they certainly don't deserve to be in any kind of top 10.  And thats not an insult, a goof solid rock n roll album to me is worth its weight in gold and I've heard each of them about a million times over but they are what they are and they're pretty appropriately rated.

Here's the million dollar question for you Lenny, could UYI have been up there with AFD if the strongest cuts were on a single album? Or are you of the opinion like several others that the material was not as strong as Appetite? 

[Len Cnut]

4 hours ago, RONIN said:

Here's the million dollar question for you Lenny, could UYI have been up there with AFD if the strongest cuts were on a single album? Or are you of the opinion like several others that the material was not as strong as Appetite? 

 I dunno.  I think when you make something like Appetite you have to blow it out of the water or not at all, you dont really equal an album like that.  It's trying to do something different really isn't it? Its a bold movie going for the triple/double album thing with your second record, i think its ill-advised too, a band should at least go on a run of three first to prove that the first time weren't a fluke, then doing something nutty with the fourth.  Few double albums are appreciated for what they are until years later.  London Calling by The Clash is one that got immediate acclaim.  

I think its possible that it could have been, choose the right tracks, tone November Rain down a bit, make it into a more concise thing...epic to some degree but a bit more minimal.  In fact i think not releasing Lies at all and holding Used to Love Her, One in a Million and Patience back for the Illusions album, picking the best of the batch then maybe making B sides and EP tracks out of songs like Get in the Ring and a couple of others.

I dunno, its all if's and maybes isnt it?  But if i was pushed for an answer I'd say no, it wouldn't've been better...but it could've been a helluva lot closer to.  

[Dan H.]

I think if you put the best songs from the Illusions on a single album, it still wouldn't be a 10/10 (not that Appetite is either, but its close).

Illusions age more and more poorly every day, and some of the production choices really ruin a lot of songs that could have been phenomenal. Its messy, awkwardly bombastic at parts, and isn't paced well.

In a way that's kindof the charm of it to a lot of GN'R fans, but I think in irs current state, even consolidating the tracks into one album wouldn't dramatically improve it.

They wont do this obviously, but retrospectively, if they went back and tweaked the production on some songs, took out some of Axl's weird cringy 90s slang, brought down the drama on November Rain, and tightened up the album so it has a more natural flow, then I think some of those songs could be saved.

Illusions is a GNR album for GNR fans. But I can't think of a single person I know personally that wouldn't laugh out loud at half the tracks on the album if I played it for them? I mean "you diiiiiigggg (weird pause) what I'm sayin?"

Edited October 6, 2016 by Dan H.

[Apollo]

17 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I don't think they're underrated, they have a few very well known songs on em and some great moments and other average ones, they are rated as good solid rock n roll albums and thats what they are, they certainly don't deserve to be in any kind of top 10.  And thats not an insult, a goof solid rock n roll album to me is worth its weight in gold and I've heard each of them about a million times over but they are what they are and they're pretty appropriately rated.

Len hits a home run. 

 

[Apollo]

11 hours ago, NicDwolfwood said:

 That upsets me, I dont mind people disliking it, but you better have a sensible reason not to.

So a complete stranger has to prove to you they have a reason that you feel is justifiable for them to not like the same band or albums that you like? That seems a bit aggressive on your part. 

Obviously live your life like you want and treat people like you want. I was just offering friendly advice. People aren't going to like everything you like. And complete strangers don't have to satisfy your  checklist as to their reasons why. It's just music. People can like or dislike whatever they want - for whatever reasons they want. You - nor I - aren't Gods or a Judges that  people have to explain their emotions to. Life is too short to worry about why strangers like or dislike a rock album. ?????????

[Nosaj Thing]

They're not underrated or underappreciated.