2016 Axl Vocal- Where's that mid voice?

[IncitingChaos]

Not sure if this thread will make it too far, since we discuss Axl's vocals in every thread and way too much in the past, but it seems to take over some of the show discussion on this SA leg.

but anyways I came across a video I hadn't watched in a while, it's Better from Osaka 2009, and to my surprise I heard the voice Axl has been trying to use on the current 2016 run. I'm not a fan of better recently because I think Axl's vocals are too Mickey on some parts. But then I heard this and realized his mid voice isn't that far lost

between :34 and :48 you hear that non rasp but very clear and controlled mid voice, after wards it goes into a harsher rasp with power but he sings all the right parts with his mid voice and is able to do it quite well.

 

now between 1:05-1:30 here we get Mickey and no power until he bust into his raspy power voice on the higher notes. Basically the song sucks like this, it takes all the life out of it with those vocals and as we have seen songs like YCBM, SCOM, NR, PC have all suffered from these vocals.

but for anyone who says Osaka was 7 years ago you can't possibly expect him to sound like that...well two months ago he sounded pretty damn good on the same song

we need to stop looking at 2010 as the year of what Axl was capable of, I think those first shows in Osaka showcased a voice that he is trying to get back in 2016. If he wanted to sound like 2010 he'd just rasp the hell out of everything. 

I applaud Axl for going for the original sound, Houston is our proof that it's still obtainable, ACDC was our proof that he more than enough vocal power, but I think it's going to take some honest study on Axl's part to say "you know I could improve on this song or that song". I'd love to hear Better, YCBM, SCOM, NR, PC all get some vocal work, it would add to what is already a great show.

Hope I don't get shut down on this one, I'm trying to take some of the vocal discussion out of the show threads so people can enjoy their shows and not have to worry about people like me coming in and criticizing every last performance. 

This last year has given us so much to discuss in terms of Axl and what he's doing vocally, we now have him recorded on over 25 new songs (ACDC), we have now heard him with Slash again this year on a large part of the GNR catalogue and I think it's brought in some intriguing discussion on what the 54 year old still has in the tank. My opinion: still a lot left for Axl, so much power, but it's being poorly used on some songs. 

[Mendez]

From all the videos ive seen, Axl stopped trying to sing Better's verses with his chest voice (like he uses on the studio version) after the first two Hammerstein shows in 2006. I guess he realized his voice was cracking too much. For all the performances after that he used a non chest raspy voice (dont know what thats called, mixed voice? singing with your throat in the falsetto register?) like in that Osaka video. I always thought that singing with that mixed voice sounds thinner/weaker than how it is on the album (with his chest voice, which i think is when he shows his best vocals in that range), but thats way better than just cleanly falsetto-ing it like hes doing this tour.

 

I think what takes away from the song the most (maybe even more than the mickey falsetto, or at least close) is that he doesnt sing it with the correct phrasing. He spaces out the verses to make it easier to breath when singing (aka easier to sing)  but the phrasing on the album is essentially to the melody of the vocals. 

[Live Like a Suicide]

It's been 2 months or so since Axl has sang Guns material on a regular basis. Give him some more time to ease into it again and he should do alright. Just compare 'Better' from April (Las Vegas) or June (Detroit) to your video taken in August (Houston). Axl sounds the same in the first two as he does in the recent SA concerts.

Edited November 4, 2016 by Live Like a Suicide

[IncitingChaos]

1 hour ago, Mendez said:

From all the videos ive seen, Axl stopped trying to sing Better's verses with his chest voice (like he uses on the studio version) after the first two Hammerstein shows in 2006. I guess he realized his voice was cracking too much. For all the performances after that he used a non chest raspy voice (dont know what thats called, mixed voice? singing with your throat in the falsetto register?) like in that Osaka video. I always thought that singing with that mixed voice sounds thinner/weaker than how it is on the album (with his chest voice, which i think is when he shows his best vocals in that range), but thats way better than just cleanly falsetto-ing it like hes doing this tour.

 

I think what takes away from the song the most (maybe even more than the mickey falsetto, or at least close) is that he doesnt sing it with the correct phrasing. He spaces out the verses to make it easier to breath when singing (aka easier to sing)  but the phrasing on the album is essentially to the melody of the vocals. 

Agree, his chest voice produces the best volume, and he doesn't disappear in the mix, but with the falsetto he is hardly audible. 

2006 is my favorite in terms of his voice, it just had a more dynamic sound. He was more versatile, compared with 2010 where it was all power. But now in 2016 he seems to have not put much effort in finding the right voice for the GNR music and instead defaulted to how he sang in 2011-2014, but currently his voice has more power than those years as proven by ACDC which I think he put a majority of his vocal work into this year. 

Unlike some I don't feel he's lost his ability to sing some songs, I just think he needs to relearn them in a way that suits his current style. 

He's gotten too comfortable singing NR and SCOM without his chest voice, I'd like to see him step out of that comfort zone and bring the power back to those songs. They could be real highlights at every show but instead they fall flat. 

At the show I went to this year everyone's favorite performance was Nightrain bc his singing voice on that song is miles better than SCOM NR PC or any others he struggles with. So I just don't get when people say he's 54 he can't sing those songs like he use to...imo he can do a whole lot better than he is doing. And as naive as it might sound it wouldn't be a hard fix for someone like Axl, it would just be a change of style in how he sings the song. 

[IncitingChaos]

46 minutes ago, Live Like a Suicide said:

It's been 2 months or so since Axl has sang Guns material on a regular basis. Give him some more time to ease into it again and he should do alright. Just compare 'Better' from April (Las Vegas) or June (Detroit) to your video taken in August (Houston). Axl sounds the same in the first two as he does in the recent SA concerts.

Yea I agree he will get better on this leg, but for me Better the song lacked a good performance at nearly every stop. 

Theres still a lot of possibility for the slow vocal start on this leg, like you said a months layoff from singing, I read he might be sick, different altitude, those crowds are so damn loud idk if he's having trouble hearing himself or not, and he's put on so many shows this year it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility that he may be fatigued. Trying not to jump the guy for not being perfect, but as I said above I think there are some quick fixes that he's ignoring currently. 

[highvoltage]

I think it's the result of some (understandable) deterioration over the course of the AC/DC gig. 

If you listen to the higher songs from the start of the tour (a la Shoot To Thrill) his rasp was almost chainsaw-like in quality. His chords sounded "tightly packed" (can't think of another way to put this) when he shrieked the high notes.

As time went on those notes sounded a lot more "blown apart"; he developed a slight gargle. It still all sounded badass, just markedly different from the start. Interestingly he sounded a lot better on the Bon Scott stuff as time went on - I'm specifically referring to the extremely challenging early Brian material.

I put together this quick comparison - the first 30 seconds are Thunderstruck from Marseille back in May, the last 30 seconds are the same part from Philly in September. This is the best example I can give of what I'm trying to describe:

Seems to me he's just worn himself out somewhat. I guess I'm just not surprised that he sounded better earlier in the GN'R tour given what I could hear starting to happen during the last AC/DC leg.

[IncitingChaos]

7 minutes ago, highvoltage said:

I think it's the result of some (understandable) deterioration over the course of the AC/DC gig. 

If you listen to the higher songs from the start of the tour (a la Shoot To Thrill) his rasp was almost chainsaw-like in quality. His chords sounded "tightly packed" (can't think of another way to put this) when he shrieked the high notes.

As time went on those notes sounded a lot more "blown apart"; he developed a slight gargle. It still all sounded badass, just markedly different from the start. Interestingly he sounded a lot better on the Bon Scott stuff as time went on - I'm specifically referring to the extremely challenging early Brian material.

I put together this quick comparison - the first 30 seconds are Thunderstruck from Marseille back in May, the last 30 seconds are the same part from Philly in September. This is the best example I can give of what I'm trying to describe:

Seems to me he's just worn himself out somewhat. I guess I'm just not surprised that he sounded better earlier in the GN'R tour given what I could hear starting to happen during the last AC/DC leg.

Good comparisons here, but I'd argue that in one he was still in his chair and in the other he was at the end of the leg. Greensboro the first gig on the US leg sounded much more like Marseilles than Philly, but as the tour went on you could hear the wear on the high notes on Brian's material. But like you said he got better on Bon's material. To me Madison Square Garden was where his voice took the biggest shot, but he recovered from it nicely after. 

I think with that said it would be fair to point out that ACDC gigs did take their toll on Axl. However, I don't hear any real damage to his voice yet, it just might be strained. That month layoff did him no good seeing as he likely didn't do any singing, and the vocal strength he built had deteriorated.   

With dates going into the Summer of next year it will be interesting how he conserves his voice for this run. 

[Jordan Rose]

Interesting stuff. 

Given that he's so keen to work more with Angus and, presumably, take as many AC/DC shows as he's offered indefinitely, you have to wonder if he has conversations with his vocal coach about how long he can sing at this level. It's fair to assume that he's still going to be doing this with at least Guns if not AC/DC when he's 60. But no matter how careful he's being technique-wise with AC/DC, singing like that surely is taking years off the potential end of his career with Guns. It's kinda scary.

And it's pretty sad and disappointing that he's putting so much more effort to AC/DC than Guns. 20+ rehearsals with Angus and then he turns up to South American stadiums with Slash to sing like it's 2014.

Then again, i'd rather he saved his voice now for when he really needs it for Atlas Shrugged and other new stuff.

 

Edited November 4, 2016 by Jordan Rose

[rudolf1978]

His singing in ACDC on most part of the songs were really great......but in Gnr....there are many Mickey mouse parts.Reunion its great but if he could sing like 2010 would be amazing.Maybe this reunion is 6 years late.

[IncitingChaos]

It sucks for Axl because the ACDC thing was great but now we have to compare him to that level of greatness. So when we hear a weak November Rain or Sweet Child it's automatically that he doesn't care. I think he cares but in the sense that he's giving it his all, however he's not consciously making a choice to improve the songs by singing in a lower voice or making them sound better by changing to his chest voice. He simply is stuck in his ways with GNR. How long have we been saying that YCBM, SCOM, NR, PC are weak spots? 

He could make them sound better, but I'm not one to discredit his effort performing the song, but that weak falsetto isn't going to sound good any time soon. 

[highvoltage]

1 hour ago, IncitingChaos said:

Good comparisons here, but I'd argue that in one he was still in his chair and in the other he was at the end of the leg. Greensboro the first gig on the US leg sounded much more like Marseilles than Philly, but as the tour went on you could hear the wear on the high notes on Brian's material. But like you said he got better on Bon's material. To me Madison Square Garden was where his voice took the biggest shot, but he recovered from it nicely after. 

I think with that said it would be fair to point out that ACDC gigs did take their toll on Axl. However, I don't hear any real damage to his voice yet, it just might be strained. That month layoff did him no good seeing as he likely didn't do any singing, and the vocal strength he built had deteriorated.   

With dates going into the Summer of next year it will be interesting how he conserves his voice for this run. 

The chair is (no offense) a bit of a straw man argument in this context, particularly given he wasn't running around much (or at all) even by the later gigs. The level of physical exertion can't have been much different to sitting down the whole gig, especially not for a guy that's used to running a lot during much longer shows.

Aside from that, I'd figure it would mostly affect his breathing and control. To me this doesn't sound like an issue with his physical fitness, it sounds like there is an amount of damage he's done from pushing himself to the absolute limit over and over again.

Even Axl Rose is human -- and he has put on quite a few superhuman displays at age 54 this year. You can't understate the effect singing like that is going to have, even if he's got reasonable technique. I'm not saying it's necessarily permanent, but I do think it's taken it's toll for the time being.

EDIT: Didn't mean to ignore your point about Greensboro. I will check that out.

[Blackstar]

I think Axl sounded better last night compared to the other SA shows and he put as much power as he could.

His voice sounds definitely worn out though. I'm afraid that the effort to sing the AC/DC BiB stuff like Brian Johnson and him pushing his voice to its limits has eventually damaged it.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Blackstar

[Silent Jay]

 

[Mark1989]

That thunderstruck clip you could argue he sounds better in the second clip. Axl hasn't damaged his voice yes it may sound worn out a bit but im sure he sings ACDC in the right and safe way. Perhaps its down to effort 

[IncitingChaos]

10 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I think Axl sounded better last night compared to the other SA shows and he put as much power as he could.

His voice sounds definitely worn out though. I'm afraid that the effort to sing the AC/DC BiB stuff like Brian Johnson and him pushing his voice to its limits has eventually damaged it.

Idk the whole leg has been rough. Last nights jungle was super weak, out ta get me was a struggle. His Mickey vocals are in full effect. I'm starting to wonder if it's on purpose or he's just not able to get enough power to create rasp on the higher vocals currently. 

i just found the vocals terrible here 

Edited November 5, 2016 by IncitingChaos

[Silent Jay]

He clearly doesn't put in the same effort, this is almost axl at his worst. Cool to see the crowd having fun regardless of the actual performance.

[IncitingChaos]

 

 

 

houston we have a problem, Axl's voice seems to be shot on this tour. Out Ta Get Me isn't even in the same ballpark, the first 10 lines of Jungle are Mickey now, and My Michelle makes me sick...however the NA tour gives us perspective on where his voice should be. Very powerful, controlled, not all over the place. He was excellent, and I could do examples on almost every song between the NA shows and SA shows...its night and day. I don't get what happened, I've tried reasoning every last excuse in my head but I'm not hearing it. He sounds weak right now, someone in a show thread said it was Axl's best jungle in 23 years at River Plate...maybe the best crowd in 23 years but every jungle on the NA tour destroyed anyone recently.

[MrSoftie]

I don't think it's really fair to compare with the SA tour videos, simply because I think there's something seriously wrong - either Axl is sick, or he's damaged his vocal chords and is just trying to get through this leg without doing further damage (could need corrective surgery). However throughout the NA tour and with AC/DC he's shown that the mid-range voice is still in there, I just think he needs to work with his vocal coach to re-learn a few GNR songs.

[IncitingChaos]

40 minutes ago, MrSoftie said:

I don't think it's really fair to compare with the SA tour videos, simply because I think there's something seriously wrong - either Axl is sick, or he's damaged his vocal chords and is just trying to get through this leg without doing further damage (could need corrective surgery). However throughout the NA tour and with AC/DC he's shown that the mid-range voice is still in there, I just think he needs to work with his vocal coach to re-learn a few GNR songs.

100% agree. He sounds different, and it happened so fast that it would be easy to conclude something has gone wrong with his vocal chords, or like you said possibly really sick. 

Glad the SA crowds treat him so well though, they are definitely picking up where Axl is falling short on this tour. 

[Modano09]

His mid-voice wasn't included because Axl, Slash and Duff are greedy.

[MrSoftie]

1 hour ago, IncitingChaos said:

100% agree. He sounds different, and it happened so fast that it would be easy to conclude something has gone wrong with his vocal chords, or like you said possibly really sick. 

Glad the SA crowds treat him so well though, they are definitely picking up where Axl is falling short on this tour. 

Yeah I mean a month prior he sounded great, he finished quite a long stint with both Guns and AC/DC and his voice was excellent right up to the last show.

And yup, thank god for those crowds supporting Axl regardless.

[Pedrolg]

I don't take anything away from Axl as he is working hard and having a great year. He is in shape and giving his all. 

I doubt he is holding back. Still, the prospect of seeing GNR next friday after decades of wait and getting a diminished Axl is very disappointing.

He did have other rough patches this year vocally too, though, both with GNR and with AC/DC. With DC he had noticeable dips in perfomance both in Europe and in the US. He bounced back eventually.

With all the plane travelling and South America's combination of air conditioning everywhere and heat/sudden temperature shifts, getting sick in the first week is extremely plausible. I hope he recovers.

[TheSeeker]

It's also possible that since the ACDC gig is over he ditched the vocal coach

[AlexC]

He uses his upper chest voice on Got Some Rock and Roll Thunder. He uses a powerful head voice on all the Back in Black material. I just don't understand why he doesn't use his Shoot to Thrill vocals on You Could Be Mine and Paradise City. It's proof that he can articulate a bunch of phrases and syllables in quick succession using heavy, chainsaw rasp consistently without too much stress.It's almost like he's actively choosing to use that weak ass falsetto. He definitely does it out of choice on Estranged. On that you can hear him avoiding distortion purposefully. It just doesn't make any sense.

[onurbayrak03]

Yeah, non-rasp voice is nonsense at the moment since he CAN use it. WHY GOD WHY