the obsession with the need to "reinvent" themselves

[action]

Axl wants to "reinvent" himself all the time, as is most accurately shown on the CD album. it was a re-invention all right....and it sucked

metallica has an equal amount of "reinventing" albums as they have disapointments. They went back to their roots on DM and on hardwired, and it's a massive success

U2 reinventing themselves with "pop"

Queen with "hot space"

.... all crap. will they ever learn?

two thoughts:

- there is no law that says bands need to reinvent themselves in order to be relevant, or even "good"

- if a band reinvents themselves, it doesn't sound like that band anymore, it doesn't connect with the fanbase and the music, by default, is something the band isn't "specialized" in

metallica is specialized in trash, not blues

GNR is specialized in nasty, filty, greasy punk / hard rock. Not industrial or whatever you'd call CD

Queen is specialized in a lot of things, gay disco ain't one of them

As for U2.... well I never liked U2 anyway  

thoughts?

Edited November 28, 2016 by action

[ZoSoRose]

Lol trash metal

[Len Cnut]

Its just bullshit, most of the above mentioned aint even substantial enough to be considered reinventions, particularly Chi Dem which was pretty much like UYI more or less, the songs are more or less the same, just with a load of pointless periphery lumped on top.

I like bands with the skill style and bravery to do something different with each album but there are few of them to be found in mainstream rock.

 

[maynard]

Pop is probably U2's best album. It wasn't really about reinventing themselves with that album, that would be Achtung Baby. Pop is just the 4 guys at their prime creatively. Fully immersed in the world of electronic music and being more cynical, with less anthemic choruses but much more interesting songs.

I sincerely recommend everyone to give Pop a try. It's unique, innovative, layered, stripped down, diverse... It'll be 20 years old next year but few songs sound dated. It's the least pop of U2s album. It contains 'Please' which is their best song IMO. It has a real fun intro with Discoteque, Do You Feel Loved and Mofo and a great melancholic, introspective end with Please, If You Wear That Velvet Dress and Wake Up Dead Man. It's fucking brilliant.

As for the topic... Some artists can pull off the reinvention thing and some simply can't. Axl couldn't. Hell, even Marilyn Manson found a way to reinvent himself and regain some dignity with the amazing The Pale Emperor.

I can't stand bands that do the same thing forever but I know reinventing yourself is a very difficult task. U2 did it well in the 90s, then became a soft-pop band in the 2000s. Bon Jovi did the country stuff and haven't released a single good song in decades.

[Rovim]

17 minutes ago, maynard said:

Pop is probably U2's best album. It wasn't really about reinventing themselves with that album, that would be Achtung Baby. Pop is just the 4 guys at their prime creatively. Fully immersed in the world of electronic music and being more cynical, with less anthemic choruses but much more interesting songs.

I sincerely recommend everyone to give Pop a try. It's unique, innovative, layered, stripped down, diverse... It'll be 20 years old next year but few songs sound dated. It's the least pop of U2s album. It contains 'Please' which is their best song IMO. It has a real fun intro with Discoteque, Do You Feel Loved and Mofo and a great melancholic, introspective end with Please, If You Wear That Velvet Dress and Wake Up Dead Man. It's fucking brilliant.

As for the topic... Some artists can pull off the reinvention thing and some simply can't. Axl couldn't. Hell, even Marilyn Manson found a way to reinvent himself and regain some dignity with the amazing The Pale Emperor.

I can't stand bands that do the same thing forever but I know reinventing yourself is a very difficult task. U2 did it well in the 90s, then became a soft-pop band in the 2000s. Bon Jovi did the country stuff and haven't released a single good song in decades.

Ironic that you like Pop so much, which relies on it's production to hold the shit together cause the tunes are not as strong as past U2 albums. I like it, but it's far, far from being U2's best album.

But Axl was naughty being interested in electronic music and exploring new twist to the classic sound. Pop wasn't a better achievement as an out there sort of experiment where they move away from the tried and true formula in some ways.

Chinese was exactly that for Guns and Axl, only Slash wasn't there so some fans just don't see it for what it really was. The next logical step for Axl with Guns, given the fact he combined Queen and Elton John for Illusions, he wanted to develop that with new elements. It wasn't that big of a departure, it just lacked Slash and rasp.

Edited November 28, 2016 by Rovim

[J Dog]

Never had a problem with a band trying something different here and there. Sometimes it doesn't work and maybe even sucks, that's life.

[AxlsFavoriteRose]

look at the Beatles, David Bowie, many great bands have switched up their sound and we benefitted from it. like J Dog says

17 minutes ago, J Dog said:

Sometimes it doesn't work and maybe even sucks, that's life.

 

[DieselDaisy]

Queen were always changing anyhow. Their first two albums were progressive rock, albeit of an ironic quality, until they solidified their sound on Sheer Heart Attack, an operatic brand of heavy rock and vaudeville. The difference is, there was a sort of progression (rather like The Beatles) whereas Hot Space was simply a case of (Mercury) jumping into a genre (i.e. homosexual disco music) with little nuance. Those are the albums which obnoxiously infuriate, like Neil Young's 1980's albums, genre hopping, abrupt perplexing changes. They are rather arrogant in a way: ''and this week, I will be a country artist.''

PS

The Black Album and Loads may have been many things but they were tremendously successful albums. I actually believe Load was the last great album Metallica made.

Edited November 28, 2016 by DieselDaisy

[maynard]

5 hours ago, Rovim said:

Ironic that you like Pop so much, which relies on it's production to hold the shit together cause the tunes are not as strong as past U2 albums. I like it, but it's far, far from being U2's best album.

But Axl was naughty being interested in electronic music and exploring new twist to the classic sound. Pop wasn't a better achievement as an out there sort of experiment where they move away from the tried and true formula in some ways.

Chinese was exactly that for Guns and Axl, only Slash wasn't there so some fans just don't see it for what it really was. The next logical step for Axl with Guns, given the fact he combined Queen and Elton John for Illusions, he wanted to develop that with new elements. It wasn't that big of a departure, it just lacked Slash and rasp.

It doesn't rely on its production at all. They had to release it before it was ready because they working on a deadline. Thankfully songwriting was great and the songs all work by themselves and as a whole. Pop was released in 1997. CD was released in 2008. He combined shit with shit in Illusions. It's a pure GNR record, exploring Axl's ballads. That's fucking it. Stop with this Queen and Elton John shit. It's pathetic. It's GNR doing ballads, no Queen, no Elton John, no Glam Metal meets punk rock with Nirvana drums blah blah blah.

There's nothing logical about CD, it's not even Guns N Roses. It's Axl at his worst. It lacked Slash, rasp and good songs.

[Len Cnut]

For progression in the pop sphere its difficult to fuck with The Beatles though overall Public Image Limited are about the most wildly different set of albums from one to another that i've heard from any band.

[J Dog]

Quite a few 80s bands try to reinvent themselves in the 90s as kind of grungy.

Edited November 28, 2016 by J Dog

[Mendez]

I don't think bands/artists should confine themselves to one genre of music. I'd compare it to an actor being type cast, and then being cast against type.  It doesn't really matter to me if I'm used to hearing a "type" of a music from them. If I like it, I like it. I think from the artists perspective, they either get tired of writing the same tune (as in its not creatively fulfilling anymore for them), or they discover a genre they never tried listening to for whatever reasons and suddenly have new approach for song ideas.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Mendez

[Rovim]

9 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

For progression in the pop sphere its difficult to fuck with The Beatles though overall Public Image Limited are about the most wildly different set of albums from one to another that i've heard from any band.

Yeah but the examples you gave here are the exception to the rule. The Beatles were the best, and I've listened to PiL based on your suggestions and it's brilliant shit, but that kind of difference between album to album is too rare to be relevant in discussing bands like Gn'R or musicians like Axl Rose that don't have what it takes or any intention to experiment on that level, let alone be as prolific as while still retaining quality.

In Hard Rock it doesn't even happened that much if at all. Frankly, most bands and musicians are satisfied with much less exploring or releasing only truly brilliant albums without losing artistic momentum.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Rovim

[Rovim]

8 hours ago, maynard said:

It doesn't rely on its production at all. They had to release it before it was ready because they working on a deadline. Thankfully songwriting was great and the songs all work by themselves and as a whole. Pop was released in 1997. CD was released in 2008. He combined shit with shit in Illusions. It's a pure GNR record, exploring Axl's ballads. That's fucking it. Stop with this Queen and Elton John shit. It's pathetic. It's GNR doing ballads, no Queen, no Elton John, no Glam Metal meets punk rock with Nirvana drums blah blah blah.

There's nothing logical about CD, it's not even Guns N Roses. It's Axl at his worst. It lacked Slash, rasp and good songs.

Pop works as an album. All the ideas, even the smaller ones are important to the artistic vision. Songwriting was great for Achtung Baby, War, TJT, etc. Not Pop. The consistency isn't there. Chinese is way more consistent in quality for example.

Elton John and Queen are big influences on Axl. Can't you hear it on November Rain? it's a ballad, but Axl still brought many tunes to Illusions that you wouldn't imagine on Appetite without first hearing and getting used to the new sounds on Illusions.

Many Guns elements were missing from Illusions, even more from Chinese, but without Slash, Axl's options were more limited when it came to making a classic album in the vein of AFD.

But it didn't lack good songs cause there was no deadline, an infinite budget, and the right musicians to create what Axl wanted to create.

Pop, Lulu, Chinese, Neil Young in the 80's techno dancing on shrooms in the studio, Axl's biggest sin other than not releasing anything is actually releasing something he wanted to release, liking NIN and alternative rock. What an asshole. He's supposed to only enjoy AC/DC albums and only release bluesy Hard Rock albums cause that's what he did in the past. Double standard detected. Just because people didn't like it, it was a mistake for Axl to try and take the time to finish it properly. That's what art is all about.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Rovim

[The Holographic Universe]

14 hours ago, maynard said:

Pop is probably U2's best album. It wasn't really about reinventing themselves with that album, that would be Achtung Baby. Pop is just the 4 guys at their prime creatively. Fully immersed in the world of electronic music and being more cynical, with less anthemic choruses but much more interesting songs.

I sincerely recommend everyone to give Pop a try. It's unique, innovative, layered, stripped down, diverse... It'll be 20 years old next year but few songs sound dated. It's the least pop of U2s album. It contains 'Please' which is their best song IMO. It has a real fun intro with Discoteque, Do You Feel Loved and Mofo and a great melancholic, introspective end with Please, If You Wear That Velvet Dress and Wake Up Dead Man. It's fucking brilliant.

As for the topic... Some artists can pull off the reinvention thing and some simply can't. Axl couldn't. Hell, even Marilyn Manson found a way to reinvent himself and regain some dignity with the amazing The Pale Emperor.

I can't stand bands that do the same thing forever but I know reinventing yourself is a very difficult task. U2 did it well in the 90s, then became a soft-pop band in the 2000s. Bon Jovi did the country stuff and haven't released a single good song in decades.

Pop is a great album. If U2 had replaced some of the songs on the album with the B-sides from the singles and saved Kiss Me, Kill Me, Thrill me for Pop it would be considered a classic.

[-W.A.R-]

Artist get bored making the same type of music and want to expand and experiment, get their creativeness flowing.

[Rovim]

30 minutes ago, -W.A.R- said:

Artist get bored making the same type of music and want to expand and experiment, get their creativeness flowing.

Axl just skips the actual release of it. He probably finishes tracks, shooting at every direction, and when he actually comes up with a cool idea or even brings it to the finish line, he just adds that to the pile.

So in theory, he can finish an album, years go by, he finishes new tracks, replaces some tracks on the finished album, changes production like in Catcher, and then he can even have multiple albums with many different styles of music on all these tunes, but he still did not release any of it or very little.

It becomes more difficult and challenging to then release anything relevant or that reflects Axl as an artist, especially when times change, line ups changed constantly until now.

On top of all that, Axl's way of doing things, Slash and Duff represent Guns N' Roses. True Guns. So now Axl needs to find the place on the next album for the classic Guns elements like Slash's playing, Duff, Rasp, more hard rock tunes, and production

along side tunes that are newer to the sound and new lyrical themes. Like in Chinese there were the classic tunes and stuff that represented the new approach like Better and Catcher compared to the old fashioned like There Was A Time and Street Of Dreams.

Edited November 29, 2016 by Rovim

[maynard]

5 hours ago, Rovim said:

Pop works as an album. All the ideas, even the smaller ones are important to the artistic vision. Songwriting was great for Achtung Baby, War, TJT, etc. Not Pop. The consistency isn't there. Chinese is way more consistent in quality for example.

Elton John and Queen are big influences on Axl. Can't you hear it on November Rain? it's a ballad, but Axl still brought many tunes to Illusions that you wouldn't imagine on Appetite without first hearing and getting used to the new sounds on Illusions.

Many Guns elements were missing from Illusions, even more from Chinese, but without Slash, Axl's options were more limited when it came to making a classic album in the vein of AFD.

But it didn't lack good songs cause there was no deadline, an infinite budget, and the right musicians to create what Axl wanted to create.

Pop, Lulu, Chinese, Neil Young in the 80's techno dancing on shrooms in the studio, Axl's biggest sin other than not releasing anything is actually releasing something he wanted to release, liking NIN and alternative rock. What an asshole. He's supposed to only enjoy AC/DC albums and only release bluesy Hard Rock albums cause that's what he did in the past. Double standard detected. Just because people didn't like it, it was a mistake for Axl to try and take the time to finish it properly. That's what art is all about.

Nope, it's pretty consistent. All the songs are very well crafted. Every single one of them, even Miami. Pop is just as good as AB and TJT. Chinese is much more inconsistent, the only truly well written song is Better, the other 13 are a big mess and the production is awful.

Axl has many influences and so does Slash or anyone but no, NR is not Queen or Elton John, it's GNR doing a ballad. There isn't a single Elton John or Queen song that sounds like NR.

Didn't read the second half of your post. It probably says something like CD is NIN + LZ meets Queen and Eminem and all that bullshit YOU REPEAT DAILY on this forum.

[tifalucis]

Is that U2 album that was given free on itunes? It was just suddenly pop out in my library. I don't like it so I deleted it. Hehe..I felt so cruel.

I didn't even start listening to CD until recently, all thanks to NITLT tour. My favorite is Better. I remembered trying to listen to it sometime years ago starting from the first track, didn't work well for me. I was puzzled by how un-GN'R the album was.

Hot Space is not that good but it has Under Pressure, one of my favorite Queen's song.

[classicrawker]

4 hours ago, Rovim said:

Axl just skips the actual release of it. He probably finishes tracks, shooting at every direction, and when he actually comes up with a cool idea or even brings it to the finish line, he just adds that to the pile.

So in theory, he can finish an album, years go by, he finishes new tracks, replaces some tracks on the finished album, changes production like in Catcher, and then he can even have multiple albums with many different styles of music on all these tunes, but he still did not release any of it or very little.

It becomes more difficult and challenging to then release anything relevant or that reflects Axl as an artist, especially when times change, line ups changed constantly until now.

On top of all that, Axl's way of doing things, Slash and Duff represent Guns N' Roses. True Guns. So now Axl needs to find the place on the next album for the classic Guns elements like Slash's playing, Duff, Rasp, more hard rock tunes, and production

along side tunes that are newer to the sound and new lyrical themes. Like in Chinese there were the classic tunes and stuff that represented the new approach like Better and Catcher compared to the old fashioned like There Was A Time and Street Of Dreams.

yeah but that is what solo albums are for.....

[Rovim]

1 minute ago, classicrawker said:

yeah but that is what solo albums are for.....

Or what Guns is for in Axl's mind. He said that if it was a solo album he'd rather just go instrumental and more movie soundtrack type music.

I think he prefers to use Guns as a canvas for his musical vision. Lyrics and melodies.

[Len Cnut]

44 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Or what Guns is for in Axl's mind. He said that if it was a solo album he'd rather just go instrumental and more movie soundtrack type music.

I think he prefers to use Guns as a canvas for his musical vision. Lyrics and melodies.

Musical vision, Chi Dem? . Should've gone to Specsavers.

[Rovim]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

Musical vision, Chi Dem? . Should've gone to Specsavers.

For his ideas, whatever. Whatever he wants to do musically, he makes no distinction between a solo project that kinda sound like Guns with the Gn'R name on it and an Axl Rose solo album.

It can have Slash, it can have Duff, could sound like Guns. Still he treats the whole thing like his own project.

[Len Cnut]

Just now, Rovim said:

For his ideas, whatever. Whatever he wants to do musically, he makes no distinction between a solo project that kinda sound like Guns with the Gn'R name on it and an Axl Rose solo album.

It can have Slash, it can have Duff, could sound like Guns. Still he treats the whole thing like his own project.

I was just tryna wedge a shit Specsavers joke in there tbh.

[classicrawker]

2 hours ago, Rovim said:

Or what Guns is for in Axl's mind. He said that if it was a solo album he'd rather just go instrumental and more movie soundtrack type music.

I think he prefers to use Guns as a canvas for his musical vision. Lyrics and melodies.

Sure but that was a major cause of his split with Slash yes? The key word in your post are " his musical vision"..........In any band there has to be give and take and if one members "vision" of what the music should be differs drastically from the rest of the band there is always the solo album option which would allow Axl to pursue his desire to experiment while still producing a GNR album which is a band effort............

Edited November 29, 2016 by classicrawker