01/22/17 - Kobe, JP - Kobe World Memorial Hall

[rhb]

I'm a singer and I study vocal technique for 5 years now! Axl can sing with drive whenever he wants to. But to sing with the drive, or raspy, in the way he used to sing,  damages his vocal chords. It's not a technical drive, it is a potent, high, screaming-like sound!  Maybe he could use some other kind of drive, but it would not sound the same either. So he learned how to do the passaggio, that is a way to get the high notes without forcing the vocal chords. In the record we can listen it clearly: Better, Streat of Dreams - final, the beginning of This I Love - the best done in my opinion. In the live performance we get some problems: he is not that good in singing live doing the passaggio! He some times get out of tune, miss power in other times, it sounds very different from the originals in some songs and he gets out of breath. The last aspect is explained because when do a clear voice, the air goes freely and finishes early comparing to a forces sound.  This is something that happens because: he is older; he sings running ou walking, he is not in the best physical shape! RIR2001 is a perfect exemple of a great performance with clear voice! 

 

Edited January 23, 2017 by rhb

[Lies They Tell]

2 minutes ago, AlexC said:

Why do people start questioning Axl's ability everytime he has a bad show? It's pretty obvious what the problem is here. HE DIDN'T PREPARE! This is nothing new, he'll be fine again after a few shows. It is possible to criticise a performance without overblowing everything out of proportion.

He's still great. This show wasn't. The end.

He might have a cold. He sounds a bit sick IMO. But I agree that after a while he'll probably sound just as good as he sounded on the US leg of the tour. But at the same time I don't think anyone should be expecting him to sound like he did in 2010 anytime soon. At best he'll sound just like he did before on the NITL tour.

[IncitingChaos]

1 minute ago, AlexC said:

Yes I 100% agree, in fact I posted that exact comment yesterday. But that's not what this comment was addressing.

Ok I reread what you wrote and I think what you're saying is that we shouldn't say "Axl is doomed...your over!" After two shows. Instead we know he's going to get better it's not the end of the world. 

But we all agree ticket prices are high, we expect to see Axl at his best and he can't be at his best if he's using the first 10 shows to warm up 

[AlexC]

2 minutes ago, rhb said:

I'm a singer and I study vocal technique for 5 years now! Axl can sing with drive whenever he wants to. But to sing with the drive, or raspy, in the way he used to sing,  damages his vocal chords. It's not a technical drive, it is a potent, high, screaming-like sound!  Maybe he could use some other kind of drive, but it would not sound the same either. So he learned how to do the passaggio, that is a way to get the high notes without forcing the vocal chords. In the record we can listen it clearly: Better, Streat of Dreams - final, the beginning of This I Love - the best done in my opinion. In the live performance we get some problems: he is not that good in singing live doing the passaggio! He some times get out of tune, miss power in other times, it sounds very different from the originals in some songs and he gets out of breath. The last aspect is explained because when do a clear voice, the air goes freely and finishes early comparing to a forces sound.  This is something that happens because: he is older; he sings running ou walking, he is not in the best physical form!  RIR2001 is a perfect exemple of a great performance with clear voice! 

 

That's great but AC/DC doesn't fit that theory.

Or the second half of the North American Tour.

And the South American Tour after Rosario.

Edited January 23, 2017 by AlexC

[IncitingChaos]

9 minutes ago, AlexC said:

That's great but AC/DC doesn't fit that theory.

Exactly, his voice would die on the High Voltage sing along if that were the case 

4:52 should have ruined his career 

Edited January 23, 2017 by IncitingChaos

[AlexC]

1 minute ago, IncitingChaos said:

Exactly, his voice would die on the High Voltage sing along if that were the case 

I honestly think it's because he felt he had something to prove with AC/DC and as a result went all out, including rehearsing like fuck and pushing his abilities. With GN'R there's less pressure. He sounds good enough and more often than not he sounds great. There's no need to rasp Sweet Child or use heavy drive on Paradise City every night when you have Slash and Duff back, you're running around and you're still hitting the notes anyway.

But in front of a bunch of hostile, pessimistic Brian Johnson loyalists then it's time to bring out the '92 chainsaw vocals.

[Ace Spade]

On 1/22/2017 at 3:47 AM, coreyx said:

The feeling is that coma Will be dropped tonight ! Utlh instead ? 

That would be a great way for them to show their support of the Woman's march.

[Lies They Tell]

7 minutes ago, IncitingChaos said:

@Lies They Tell not to get back into a discussion on the matter but I am curious what songs fall into the high pitched category? 

I enjoy the vocal discussion so I'll probably go back and look at performances of those songs compared with what he does well and see if the picture is clearer as to what is causing Axl to fall into that clean voice. 

Well there's so many. For example SCOM, RQ, UTLH, PC, Better, NR and the ending of DC. Of course even some of those songs have occasional screaming moments, or occasional lower pitched moments where he sounds better. But overall those songs don't sound so good if you prefer his raspy voice, like many of us do. And I don't think it's coincidence that all of those songs also require a lot of high pitched raspy singing.

[AlexC]

31 minutes ago, Lies They Tell said:

What do you mean by flawless? He didn't sing AC/DC with 100% rasp either if that's what you mean. But overall I agree that AC/DC songs do fit his current voice much better than GNR songs do. GNR songs require a lot of high pitched raspy singing which doesn't really suit Axl's current voice. He can't sing with a high pitched voice and sound raspy at the same time unless he's screaming.

That's why AC/DC songs fit his voice much better. First of all there's a lot of screaming in AC/DC songs and we all know that Axl always sounds raspy when he screams. Then there's songs like Got Some Rock & Roll thunder, which are sung in a lower key than most GNR songs and when Axl's singing in that key, he sounds raspy.

Simply put most AC/DC songs fit Axl's current voice much better than most GNR songs do.

I agree that Axl's voice at the moment isn't as good as it was when GNR was touring US. But I wouldn't be worried about an Axl Rose Disaster yet. His voice is still in a much better condition than it was a few years ago.

I disagree. The heaviness of his rasp on songs like Shoot to Thrill, Back in Black, Hells Bells, Thunderstruck and For Those About to Rock exceed his 2010 voice. Plus there's whole sections of those songs which aren't just super high screaming. Givin' the Dog a Bone is a perfect example, you can clearly hear him smoothly transitioning from chest voice to head voice whilst maintaining 100% rasp.

[Ifdworld]

On 1/22/2017 at 11:43 AM, AncientEvil80 said:

Not whining, I don't give a damn, but please REPLACE THAT DRUMMER. Just shamelessly skewering Don't Cry. Absolutely APPALLING. Guitars having to chase him all the way through every fucking beat??? UNREAL. FIRE THE GUY!!!!!

This is becoming worse than a joke.

dude you´re talking out of your ass right there. that is called an arrangement and its not like frank just told the guys, ok, we re gonna drag the song. its the whole theme, and he's working around that idea. even richard´s guitar is completely different from what izzy played on the record. the picking is different and he's playing with a tremolo that really gives that whole dragged idea as well and i don't see you bashing richard. To me, the arrangement  sounds great and to them as well, apparently since its a group conscious effort. so you´re basically stating an opinion as a fact and you could ve just said you didn't like the arrangement or the feel or whatever, but to blame it on the drummer, its just sad... get a life dude and stop insulting a great drummer. he may never live to your unfounded expectations but that doesn't make him any less of a pro.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Ifdworld

[wasted]

29 minutes ago, rhb said:

I'm a singer and I study vocal technique for 5 years now! Axl can sing with drive whenever he wants to. But to sing with the drive, or raspy, in the way he used to sing,  damages his vocal chords. It's not a technical drive, it is a potent, high, screaming-like sound!  Maybe he could use some other kind of drive, but it would not sound the same either. So he learned how to do the passaggio, that is a way to get the high notes without forcing the vocal chords. In the record we can listen it clearly: Better, Streat of Dreams - final, the beginning of This I Love - the best done in my opinion. In the live performance we get some problems: he is not that good in singing live doing the passaggio! He some times get out of tune, miss power in other times, it sounds very different from the originals in some songs and he gets out of breath. The last aspect is explained because when do a clear voice, the air goes freely and finishes early comparing to a forces sound.  This is something that happens because: he is older; he sings running ou walking, he is not in the best physical shape! RIR2001 is a perfect exemple of a great performance with clear voice! 

 

Passaggio. Write that down. 

So when he plays with DC he just risks it.

But on long GNR tours he's staying safe. Maybe with a few shows to go he'll decide to risk it and go rasp. 

Maybe on one song a show he goes rasp then goes back to passaggio. 

[Lies They Tell]

3 minutes ago, AlexC said:

I disagree. The heaviness of his rasp on songs like Shoot to Thrill, Back in Black, Hells Bells, Thunderstruck and For Those About to Rock exceed his 2010 voice. Plus there's whole sections of those songs which aren't just super high screaming. Givin' the Dog a Bone is a perfect example, you can clearly hear him smoothly transitioning from chest voice to head voice whilst maintaining 100% rasp.

How can you give "Givin the Dog A Bone" as an example? I mean that song is a perfect example of a song that perfectly suits Axl's voice. It's mostly just screaming and even the few singing parts are lower pitched singing which suits Axl's voice.

Same thing with Shoot To Thrill, Back In Black, Hell's Bell's, Thunderstruck and For Those About To Rock. Those are phenomenal performances by Axl, I agree. I bet Axl would have sounded even better singing AC/DC, if he had joined the band in 2010 though. 

Anyway it almost feels like you missed my point entirely. Axl struggles with high pitched raspy singing and many GNR songs require exactly that. There's pretty much no high pitched raspy singing in any of those AC/DC songs you named. There's a lot of high pitched screaming in those though and we all know that Axl has no problems with rasp when he screams. He always sounds good when he's screaming on GNR songs, so naturally he always sounds good when he's screaming on AC/DC songs as well.

But he struggles on high pitched raspy singing and that's what GNR songs are full of. There's not a lot of that in AC/DC songs and when there is, Axl's singing it clean on AC/DC songs too, just like he does with GNR.

[Top-Hatted One]

It is amazing and otherworldly that Axl has been able to accomplish what he has throughout all these years. When he doesn't just stand there and sing. He's running around for 3hrs every show. Think about that for a second.

I've been signing all my life. I was lucky to have an amazing and inspiring vocal coach in my teens. A lot goes into singing. It's not the same as singing to a record. Being able to read music helps but not a necessity if you have a really good ear for pitch and notes. Then you have to exercise your diaphragm and vocal cords which are like any other muscle. You have to stretch them out. That's why you do vocal exercises. It's like stretching. You keep going higher and lower. Next thing you know you have incredible range. I'm willing to bet Axl is the amazing singer he is because he learned these things at a young age singing with the choir in church and school.

You learn that the correct way to sing is from the gut(diaphragm) which is how you sustain notes for a long time. Don't Cry, Estranged, SCOM etc. Everyone can try this, you take a deep breathe and you gut tightens while simultaneously lifting your soft pallet(roof of your mouth). This helped me, pretend you stuck a whole orange in your mouth. As you can see a lot more goes into singing than people realize . You need different parts of your body to working together to really  maximize the potential of your vocal chords. 

Also like the rest of the muscles in your body, it's use it or lose it. That's why Axl is at his worse after a long layoff and sometimes years of inactivity. When Axl has his vocal coach he is really good and doesn't miss a beat when he doesn't like in 2001-2002 he is almost unrecognizable. Being in shape physically also helps especially since he's running around the stage for 3hrs at 55.

Axl's talent is truly amazing if you really think about it. It defies logic 

 

 

Edited January 25, 2017 by Top-Hatted One

[marlingrl03]

43 minutes ago, AlexC said:

I honestly think it's because he felt he had something to prove with AC/DC and as a result went all out, including rehearsing like fuck and pushing his abilities. With GN'R there's less pressure. He sounds good enough and more often than not he sounds great. There's no need to rasp Sweet Child or use heavy drive on Paradise City every night when you have Slash and Duff back, you're running around and you're still hitting the notes anyway.

But in front of a bunch of hostile, pessimistic Brian Johnson loyalists then it's time to bring out the '92 chainsaw vocals.

Yes. ..finally someone has said what my theory has been. Of course it's just a theory but pretty probable. We all know how angry those AC/DC fans to hear that Axl was replacing Brian for the tour. He absolutely had something to prove and by pushing himself to the limit he did earn many of the their fans respect! 

[blackieloveless]

8 minutes ago, marlingrl03 said:

Yes. ..finally someone has said what my theory has been. Of course it's just a theory but pretty probable. We all know how angry those AC/DC fans to hear that Axl was replacing Brian for the tour. He absolutely had something to prove and by pushing himself to the limit he did earn many of the their fans respect! 

 i have thought this , remember angus is to axl what axl is to gnr fans .

[Kickingthehabit]

Axl doesn't sound terrible, but he's obviously unprepared. Shape up, ginger!

And change the fucking set list!

[rhb]

2 hours ago, AlexC said:

That's great but AC/DC doesn't fit that theory.

Or the second half of the North American Tour.

And the South American Tour after Rosario.

AC/DC : it shows that he choose when to use it or not! He had to prove he could. 10 shows... NITL : he alternates! He started doing his best, and he did it in some shows, not every show! WTTJ he tries to do it raspy! Paradise no! Nightrain sometimes. 

After all, when I was watching them live the whole band and the voice were ok!  

[IncitingChaos]

4 hours ago, Lies They Tell said:

Well there's so many. For example SCOM, RQ, UTLH, PC, Better, NR and the ending of DC. Of course even some of those songs have occasional screaming moments, or occasional lower pitched moments where he sounds better. But overall those songs don't sound so good if you prefer his raspy voice, like many of us do. And I don't think it's coincidence that all of those songs also require a lot of high pitched raspy singing.

So would you put the loss of his higher pitched vocals around 2010 or takeaway that being the year he last had it? 

And would you qualify this as use of that higher pitched vocal he can no longer achieve?

at 2:41 and the ending 

[Lies They Tell]

5 hours ago, IncitingChaos said:

So would you put the loss of his higher pitched vocals around 2010 or takeaway that being the year he last had it? 

And would you qualify this as use of that higher pitched vocal he can no longer achieve?

at 2:41 and the ending 

Yes, 2010 was the last time he could pretty much effortlessly sing those high notes in a raspy voice, without screaming. Since then he hasn't been able to. There might have been some few rare occasions since then when he's been successful at that. Or there might nor have been. I don't know, all I know is that since then it hasn't been something that he has effortlessly pulled off, so if it's not completely impossible, it's at least much much harder for him these days and that's why he's not doing it.

Obviously he can still sing those higher pitched vocals though, but these days it's either without rasp or when he's screaming or otherwise doing some short bursts of vocals. But if he has to sing long raspy high pitched melodies, like so many GNR songs require, he doesn't seem to have been able to do that in a long time effortlessly.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Lies They Tell

[LA_0013]

He better sort his shit out before Dubai ! I've bought 5 tickets for friends promising them one of the best shows they'll see.... lol

[Nalbi]

7 hours ago, IncitingChaos said:

So would you put the loss of his higher pitched vocals around 2010 or takeaway that being the year he last had it? 

And would you qualify this as use of that higher pitched vocal he can no longer achieve?

at 2:41 and the ending 

OMG, what a terrible version of Don't Cry.

OK, the voice is there but that's pretty much it...

I've read someone's post saying that Axl sounded bored during the song in Kobe, but has he ever seen this?!

I prefer like 10x seeing an Axl visibly having fun on stage even with some vocal weaknesses over just the dude walking around with no emotion whatsoever. 

[IncitingChaos]

1 hour ago, Nalbi said:

OMG, what a terrible version of Don't Cry.

OK, the voice is there but that's pretty much it...

I've read someone's post saying that Axl sounded bored during the song in Kobe, but has he ever seen this?!

I prefer like 10x seeing an Axl visibly having fun on stage even with some vocal weaknesses over just the dude walking around with no emotion whatsoever. 

The thing I like about it is there are no pre-planned stage moves, he just walks out there and starts singing with the crowd Bc at this time Don't Cry wasn't even a real song on the set, Bumble would just play it on his guitar and the crowd would get into it then Axl started singing it. Look at Axl's face after he hits that note, it's almost satisfaction in the sense that he's saying "yea I still got it" 

i guess I appreciate the rawness of the performance instead of the going through the motions Axl we've been getting 

[IncitingChaos]

5 hours ago, Lies They Tell said:

Yes, 2010 was the last time he could pretty much effortlessly sing those high notes in a raspy voice, without screaming. Since then he hasn't been able to. There might have been some few rare occasions since then when he's been successful at that. Or there might nor have been. I don't know, all I know is that since then it hasn't been something that he has effortlessly pulled off, so if it's not completely impossible, it's at least much much harder for him these days and that's why he's not doing it.

Obviously he can still sing those higher pitched vocals though, but these days it's either without rasp or when he's screaming or otherwise doing some short bursts of vocals. But if he has to sing long raspy high pitched melodies, like so many GNR songs require, he doesn't seem to have been able to do that in a long time effortlessly.

Well in that sense I agree he can't hit that note anymore and there's no evidence of him having gotten there since 2010 but with that said he has shown to be very versitile and I still believe with a few style changes on certain songs he could achieve a better vocal sound that may not be that high pitched brilliance but it will be stronger and better sounding that what we are getting  

[Tom2112]

On 1/22/2017 at 2:35 PM, TheDemocracyRose said:

 

Not a fan of this performance, it's really rushed during the verses; just doesn't work. Also, while I'm not really A Matt Sorum fan, I think the fills on Don't Cry, November Rain and Estranged should be kept strict to the record. They are as memorable as the vocals in these particular cases. Ordinarily I'm all for interpreting music YOUR way, but some songs should be kept close to the original. I really like what Fortus is doing on guitar though, that bigsby work is great! really adds to the song IMO. Also, great to hear the proper backing vocals back on this song. Not Axls best version of this song, and Slash's solo was a bit phoned in.  

[Tom2112]

9 hours ago, IncitingChaos said:

Well in that sense I agree he can't hit that note anymore and there's no evidence of him having gotten there since 2010 but with that said he has shown to be very versitile and I still believe with a few style changes on certain songs he could achieve a better vocal sound that may not be that high pitched brilliance but it will be stronger and better sounding that what we are getting  

Think you're talking about lowering the keys of certain songs, and while he should do that I can't see it happening until he's a bit older. I'm sure in his mind he's nailing it... and to be fair, he is usually pretty close to the mark on most songs (with the exclusion of opening nights of tours).