Chinese Democracy

[Padme]

10 hours ago, Zurimor said:

When reading all the posts, I got one insight, which is, there is no use discussing things in a manner like "but they left the band because of Axl". While this may be true, it's of no importance other then ethical discussions. Now the problem with ethics is, it changes depending on your cultural environment, religion, education and so on. Only some very few, very basic ethics are shared by most people like "you shouldn't kill anyone" (which isn't even true for some cultures, but for our culture area, so I think we can all agree on that one).

The point I want to make is, ethics is nothing objective, but very subjective, and holding a discussion on that footing usually leads nowhere. It's your opinion, which you're of course entitled to have, but nothing which is true or not true. For a discussion, however, such opinions can barely be a real argument, since everyone might see things slightly different.

So, be nice to each other.

 

You are getting way too philosophical about something that it is not. Why Slash and Duff left? Slash at that time didn't want to waste years making an album nor changing any direction. He wanted something simple and hit the road again. Duff had his pancreas illness in 94. The guy needed to take care of himself. Axl wanted a new direction. He knew what he didn't want . But he never had a clear idea about what shape and form that new direction would have. CD is just a bad mixed of U2, NIN and Led Zeppelin.

[Free Bird]

On 22.12.2016 at 3:34 AM, Zurimor said:

Err, he was the only member left of the band at that time, it's not he who quitted, but everyone else except him left the band. So he pretty much was Guns n' Roses.

Imho it was absolutely legitimate to keep the name for his band.

Actually it bores me to death but I'll say it again. 

In fact, after Izzy left in 91 nobody but Axl left the band.

Axl alone. He saved the rights for the name Guns N Roses with one of the biggest dick moves anybody could ever do. Axl, Slash and Duff created a partnership. If someone of those three bandmates leaves the band or dies, Axl's getting the name Guns N Roses.

Axl was the one quitting the band, so he had the rights to build his own band and naming them Guns N Roses.

Factually and legally an another and completely new band, just with the same name, Guns N Roses.

Slash didn't quit, nor did Duff. It was solely Axl's decision. 

That's what Axl did. He may had his reasons, I don't blame him alone for that, but saying he isn't (in parts) to blame for the band's break up is r.i.d.i.c.u.l.o.u.s and factually wrong.

After leaving the band and founding a new one, he offered Slash and Duff their jobs back as employees. Sadly that's the true story of the break up.

It's all pretty good documented, you can look it up if you don't believe me. 

 

Btt: Why should people change their opinion about an album that's almost 10 years old just because the band is touring again. Maybe these are people who didn't even know CD existed until the reuinon happened. 

I still mislike what I what I misliked to begin with on CD. 

Edited December 23, 2016 by Free Bird

[ChristmasFnatic]

I really tried to like it, I listened to it over and over, and I just cant. 

 

[gunsguy]

I love CD.  I understand though that is needs to be taken for what it is.

[Apollo]

On December 22, 2016 at 8:34 PM, Zurimor said:

Err, he was the only member left of the band at that time, it's not he who quitted, but everyone else except him left the band. So he pretty much was Guns n' Roses.

Imho it was absolutely legitimate to keep the name for his band.

Why fight so hard to keep the name just  to have a revolving door of musicians and to release just one album in 20 years though?

[Apollo]

18 minutes ago, gunsguy said:

I love CD.  I understand though that is needs to be taken for what it is.

This short and simple sentence pretty much sums CD up perfectly. 

I also love CD. Listen to it more than I listen to either Illusion. Better, SOD, Twat and Catcher are A-level songs IMO. 

But....it's only a GnR album in name, but not in spirit. 

******

Another weird thing about this topic  is when people get soooo angry about the reasons complete strangers don't like CD. 

Why should it matter to anybody why some dude in Idaho doesn't like CD? His reasons are his reasons. Why should we care? And more importantly, why get pissed off because some complete stranger doesn't feel the same way  about an album? 

Love what you love. Who cares why Chad in Boise doesn't like CD. 

[ludurigan]

On 22/12/2016 at 11:07 PM, Zurimor said:

I just noticed that people are now, that Guns n' Roses are touring with almost the original lineup again, finally giving credit to the Chinese Democracy album. You now can read many appreciative comments on youtube while all the time before there was mostly hate. Makes me a bit sad.

I always liked that album.

All the years nothing than how bad that album is and now...almost completely changed. It's good that album gets the credit it deserves, however, Axl clearly had a vision years ago when his band members probably weren't ready for it.

What I wonder is, why is that?

Is that because people regardeded Axl as the one who didn't want to continue old Gn'R stuff and now that they're together again it's easier to appreciate his work? Any ideas?

You give any song to Axl, Izzy, Slash, Duff and Steven to play

What happens?

They will make it sound great

Just listen to Whole Lotta Rosie, Jumping Jack Flash and Knockin on Heavens Door

Do you know any other band in the planet that can make an AC/DC song, a Rolling Stones song, and a Bob Dylan song sound at least 18 times better than the original?

===

Now

You give any song to Axl, Slash, Duff and the aliens to play

What happens?

Even with the aliens (specially Richard the guitar player and Frank the drummer) butchering it to no end, it will still sound half good

Because Axl, Slash and Duff are great

And half good is really better than whatever Axl solo band version you ever heard

Its just as simple as that

Edited December 23, 2016 by ludurigan

[Padme]

7 minutes ago, Apollo said:

This short and simple sentence pretty much sums CD up perfectly. 

I also love CD. Listen to it more than I listen to either Illusion. Better, SOD, Twat and Catcher are A-level songs IMO. 

But....it's only a GnR album in name, but not in spirit. 

******

Another weird thing about this topic  is when people get soooo angry about the reasons complete strangers don't like CD. 

Why should it matter to anybody why some dude in Idaho doesn't like CD? His reasons are his reasons. Why should we care? And more importantly, why get pissed off because some complete stranger doesn't feel the same way  about an album? 

Love what you love. Who cares why Chad in Boise doesn't like CD. 

Actually there are people saying exactly the oposite. I don't know where some people get the idea that because Slash is playing CD songs everybody loves CD.

I don't think that's the case at all, certanly is not the case with me. What I have noticed in the U.S. is people just clapping their hands and cheering when Axl is holding a note or Slash is playing the solo during any of those songs. But I don't think that is enough evidence to claim that now the whole world loves CD. I didn't see anywhere that CD is selling millions of copies because of  the reunion tour

[RussTCB]

1 hour ago, ChristmasFnatic said:

I really tried to like it, I listened to it over and over, and I just cant. 

 

Which is totally acceptable to most of us who do like the album. IMO, you shouldn't have to try to like it. I like it but you and many others don't. All good in my book. 

[Zurimor]

2 hours ago, Free Bird said:

Actually it bores me to death but I'll say it again. 

In fact, after Izzy left in 91 nobody but Axl left the band.

Axl alone. He saved the rights for the name Guns N Roses with one of the biggest dick moves anybody could ever do. Axl, Slash and Duff created a partnership. If someone of those three bandmates leaves the band or dies, Axl's getting the name Guns N Roses.

Axl was the one quitting the band, so he had the rights to build his own band and naming them Guns N Roses.

Factually and legally an another and completely new band, just with the same name, Guns N Roses.

Slash didn't quit, nor did Duff. It was solely Axl's decision. 

That's what Axl did. He may had his reasons, I don't blame him alone for that, but saying he isn't (in parts) to blame for the band's break up is r.i.d.i.c.u.l.o.u.s and factually wrong.

After leaving the band and founding a new one, he offered Slash and Duff their jobs back as employees. Sadly that's the true story of the break up.

It's all pretty good documented, you can look it up if you don't believe me. 

 

I have no idea what you're talking about. Actually, they did quit.

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/slash-quits-guns-n-roses/

I still remember that time pretty well, there was a point when he was the last one lefft. And Gn'R was never offcially disbanded and then refounded, it legally still was the same band.

Btw, I sometimes change my opinion about albums, you're getting older, your taste changes and you might listen to old songs in a different way.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Zurimor

[Zurimor]

54 minutes ago, Apollo said:

Another weird thing about this topic  is when people get soooo angry about the reasons complete strangers don't like CD. 

Why should it matter to anybody why some dude in Idaho doesn't like CD? His reasons are his reasons. Why should we care? And more importantly, why get pissed off because some complete stranger doesn't feel the same way  about an album? 

Love what you love. Who cares why Chad in Boise doesn't like CD. 

I'm not angry at all, why should I? I was just wondering, nothing else.

[Rovim]

8 hours ago, Apollo said:

Why should it matter to anybody why some dude in Idaho doesn't like CD?

who is this dude in Idaho? do you know him? what's his full name? I'm just curious.

Chinese was pretty well received by critics and there was a poll here a while ago and about 72% voted they liked Chinese. Is it a true Guns album? no. Did Axl try to make a Guns album and not a solo album? yes, I believe he did.

Do I actually give a shit about others not liking Chinese or any other shit I like and they don't? absolutely not.

Axl talked about Chinese and said the intention was not to make a solo album and if he made one it would probably be instrumental music and film scores or some shit.

Street Of Dreams does sound like it could have been an Illusion track. I get the sense that whole intro for Chinese Democracy was his attempt to make a WTTJ build up and the whole vibe of the tune reminds me of the same mojo Jungle had.

It does contain many Guns elements, but technically, yeah... it's an Axl Rose solo album. I don't care what it is. Not really. All I know is that 8 years after the official release of it, and 10 years after first hearing parts of it, I still go back to it so I'm glad it exists and I hope to hear the rest of it someday.

 

Edited December 24, 2016 by Rovim

[Free Bird]

3 hours ago, Zurimor said:

I have no idea what you're talking about. Actually, they did quit.

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/slash-quits-guns-n-roses/

I still remember that time pretty well, there was a point when he was the last one lefft. And Gn'R was never offcially disbanded and then refounded, it legally still was the same band.

 

Well, history is history and you can't change it, as much as you might want it to do. 

Even if you didn't know how real Guns split up, at least you heard the truth now. 

It's up to you if you believe it or not. I don't care.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Free Bird

[Zurimor]

One thing came to my mind regarding the history of Chinese Democracy. People like to blame him for taking forever and all that, all true. However, I think there were reasons for that. For many Axl was the bad guy, the one who is to blame for the breakup (partly true, they all did their stuff for that), the other band members had their projects and he was left with nothing at that time. People disliked that he kept the name Guns n' Roses for his band and there was a lack of support from many sides. And now he was supposed to make an album out of this mess, and it was obvious that it had to be an outstanding one. He had to be better than Slash, better than Duffy, Izzy and all the rest, an album even at the same level as the preceding ones wouldn't have been enough, there would've been those "could've done the same with the old lineup" opinions.

What I say is, he was under a lot of pressure and never felt like what he produced so far was good enough for that. If it wasn't for Guns n' Roses, the material would've been great, but not under those circumstances. To come to the end, the neverending Chinese Democracy story is not on Axl alone, in my opinion it's also on the lack of support by the fans. Probably would've been a completely different story if it had been more like "no problem, Axl, now go ahead, we know you'll make something great".

 

Edited January 2, 2017 by Zurimor

[BorderlineCrazy]

6 hours ago, Zurimor said:

One thing came to my mind regarding the history of Chinese Democracy. People like to blame him for taking forever and all that, all true. However, I think there were reasons for that. For many Axl was the bad guy, the one who is to blame for the breakup (partly true, they all did their stuff for that), the other band members had their projects and he was left with nothing at that time. People disliked that he kept the name Guns n' Roses for his band and there was a lack of support from many sides. And now he was supposed to make an album out of this mess, and it was obvious that it had to be an outstanding one. He had to be better than Slash, better than Duffy, Izzy and all the rest, an album even at the same level as the preceding ones wouldn't have been enough, there would've been those "could've done the same with the old lineup" opinions.

What I say is, he was under a lot of pressure and never felt like what he produced so far was good enough for that. If it wasn't for Guns n' Roses, the material would've been great, but not under those circumstances. To come to the end, the neverending Chinese Democracy story is not on Axl alone, in my opinion it's also on the lack of support by the fans. Probably would've been a completely different story if it had been more like "no problem, Axl, now go ahead, we know you'll make something great".

 

I disagree. Did Axl care about the fans' opinion? He came out like "I'm Guns N' Roses now" surrounded by a bunch of weirdos, why was people forced to pretend it was the same band and support it like they did with the original one? But still, as far as I know Axl got plenty of support. Even many of those who didn't approve his use of the name went to the shows and bought the album, what else could you do? Go to forums and say "oh, so Axl put a new band together and also called it Guns N' Roses? That's awesome, can't wait to hear the new music"? Don't know about you but I could never pretend nothing happened when my favorite band just died and got replaced.

To me, it's as if Slash dies and Axl decides to put his dead body on stage at the shows to say "Slash is still here". The GNR name was still there but it didn't mean anything anymore, it didn't represent anything.

[BlueJean Baby]

On 1/2/2017 at 11:04 AM, BorderlineCrazy said:

I disagree. Did Axl care about the fans' opinion? He came out like "I'm Guns N' Roses now" surrounded by a bunch of weirdos, why was people forced to pretend it was the same band and support it like they did with the original one? But still, as far as I know Axl got plenty of support. Even many of those who didn't approve his use of the name went to the shows and bought the album, what else could you do? Go to forums and say "oh, so Axl put a new band together and also called it Guns N' Roses? That's awesome, can't wait to hear the new music"? Don't know about you but I could never pretend nothing happened when my favorite band just died and got replaced.

To me, it's as if Slash dies and Axl decides to put his dead body on stage at the shows to say "Slash is still here". The GNR name was still there but it didn't mean anything anymore, it didn't represent anything.

I disagree. I remember lots of fans constantly bashing and not supporting Axl while waiting on CD to be released. I was an admin over at the old gunnertemple.com and heard that crap for years. Axl even mentioned it in one of his rants about how the new band members were constantly being blamed for the old band not getting back together and how he was constantly having to take shit from fans, but he was there because he does care.

Not saying your opinions are wrong, it's how you feel and I respect that. Just as I have and always will support and defend Axl because it's how I feel.

[BangoSkank]

17 minutes ago, BlueJean Baby said:

I disagree. I remember lots of fans constantly bashing and not supporting Axl while waiting on CD to be released. I was an admin over at the old gunnertemple.com and heard that crap for years. Axl even mentioned it in one of his rants about how the new band members were constantly being blamed for the old band not getting back together and how he was constantly having to take shit from fans, but he was there because he does care.

Not saying your opinions are wrong, it's how you feel and I respect that. Just as I have and always will support and defend Axl because it's how I feel.

That is 100% true. Axl bashed MERCILESSLY for years before the breakup on the forums, in the comments on YouTube and other sites, even in the general press.

Yes, he had tremendous access to financial resources with the new band, but that doesn't matter much if there is intense backlash from an audience.

It's strange, it's almost as though people were at once rooting for his success and failure with Chinese Democracy.

But the main point of this thread, at least I think it's the main point of the thread, is the general fan's attitude towards CD now that the reunion has happened.  I have always thought that Slash was the thing preventing people from jumping on the CD/NewGNR train. Yes, there are purists who would've not liked the musical direction, yes, superfans would put it under a magnifying glass, but the fact of the matter is, the general public's attitude towards all things GNR hinges mainly on Axl & Slash being together. 

[Rovim]

Fans blamed Axl for continuing without Slash as Gn'R. They just would not accept it. The fact it took Axl years and years to release a Guns album without Slash only made shit worse.

Edited January 2, 2017 by Rovim

[AxlsFavoriteRose]

On 12/22/2016 at 5:39 PM, Jane M. said:

It's all about Slash, remove him from the equation and everything will go back as before.

there is an undeniable connection between Axl and Slash and people love it. Axl's "hate" for Slash means he still cared enough about him to make him react in such a strong way. it's like this quote:  "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." by Elie Wiesel. that's my take on it anyway 

Edited January 2, 2017 by AxlsFavoriteRose

[Towelie]

I don't think Chinese Democracy has been discussed enough on this board. I think we need to discuss this album more.

[Rovim]

17 minutes ago, AxlsFavoriteRose said:

there is an undeniable connection between Axl and Slash and people love it. Axl's "hate" for Slash means he still cared enough about him to make him react in such a strong way. it's like this quote:  "The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference." by Elie Wiesel. that's my take on it anyway 

Agreed. That Axl quote about crying hot burning tears of anger... saying he couldn't do an Appetite like album cause Slash wasn't there anymore, etc.

And just how happy he is now with Slash back and how impressed he is with his playing, even saying in the China Exchange interview Slash could play on it if he's interested, and how he wants to keep it going as long as possible.

To me it's obvious he never wanted Slash to leave and it crushed him. I don't even think Slash thought he would be in exile for 20 years. My guess is he thought he'll be back after Axl calmed down a bit. Took 20 years.

It's obvious Slash and Duff belong in Guns. I'm a huge new Guns fan. Bucket, Robin, Tommy, and Brain in Guns was a trip, Chinese a very special album to me, but Axl was right when he said "as long as Slash and I share that bond, there will be a Guns N' Roses". (or something like that)

Edited January 2, 2017 by Rovim

[AxlsFavoriteRose]

great post! that summed it up perfectly IMO

[janrichmond]

I didn't follow Axl and his Guns, i chose Slash, he released music.

I only heard CD when i joined this forum and was seriously disappointed. I don't mind a couple of songs live but i would much prefer they just played Appetite and Illusion era.

[BorderlineCrazy]

1 hour ago, BlueJean Baby said:

I disagree. I remember lots of fans constantly bashing and not supporting Axl while waiting on CD to be released. I was an admin over at the old gunnertemple.com and heard that crap for years. Axl even mentioned it in one of his rants about how the new band members were constantly being blamed for the old band not getting back together and how he was constantly having to take shit from fans, but he was there because he does care.

Not saying your opinions are wrong, it's how you feel and I respect that. Just as I have and always will support and defend Axl because it's how I feel.

I just don't think Axl could be surprised to see some people being angry at him for keeping the name, it was obvious it was gonna happen.

Then, everyone handles it differently, some people took it too far and never even listened to what Axl was doing, they just turn their back on him which is something I could never do (and can't really understand). I never accepted Axl's idea that his band, the one that worked on CD, was GNR but I still supported him 100%. I would listen to every leak, I bought the album (and wanted more music from him) and I went to see him every time he came to Argentina.

He meant too much to me to just move on and leave him behind.

[BlueJean Baby]

On 1/2/2017 at 2:25 PM, BorderlineCrazy said:

 

He meant too much to me to just move on and leave him behind.

I totally agree on this.