Chinese Democracy

[Rovim]

7 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Axl must have written Dead Horse inspired by this thread, it's truly mindblowing. Speculating can be fun but there's got to be a limit. Writing the very same thing day after day after day doesn't make much sense IMO, it doesn't turn speculation into facts or anything. 

So far there is no such thing as "Chinese Democracy 2" released and that's all that matters. I do believe Axl has enough songs to release another album but that's not a fact and I could be wrong. I have no idea why Axl hasn't released another album after CD (and neither do any of you) and I don't care either. I hope he will do a proper new album with Slash and Duff but so far there's absolutely no reason to assure he will. Whatever he says is completely irrelevant (let alone what Richard Fortus says) as he either lies or changes his mind pretty often. Whatever he said at the China Exchange means nothing until there's something tangible as it would have meant nothing if he said "not in this lifetime" about a new album.

Some people love making up this shit about how Axl's mind works and how he won't release anything until he feels it's ready, yet the same people constantly talks about how Axl turned CD to the label 25 different times and it was rejected because "it wasn't good enough" so these two things are completely contradictory.

Truth is we have no idea what's on Axl's mind, what his intentions and motivations are and maybe neither does him (or maybe he does and just won't tell us). Anything we might say about why/how Axl does things is nothing but fairytales we write to pass the time.

Actually, it is a fact. Axl has specifically stated the second half of Chinese has been completed for a long time now. You have no idea why Axl hasn't released another album after CD, that much is true. And while we don't know exactly why he did not release anything after Chinese, I have a few ideas. There got to be a limit? why? you can just not read it and/or discuss it. Simple.

Speculation is a big part of discussion. Educated guesses based on what Axl said and others are frowned upon for some reason. That I do not understand or accept.

Especially when Axl has given a fairly clear idea recently of what he wants to do, and I think he was honest about it probably taking a long time. "Some people" just find it hard to accept for some reason.

No one claimed to know how Axl's mind works. That's silly. We don't need to. Axl has reunited with Slash and Duff, Axl likes to add "new" band members like Bumble and Frank to recordings, or like he replaced Izzy's guitar with Gilby's.

He also said CD ll is similar in approach to Chinese, and we know how Chinese sounds like. We also know Axl is impressed with Slash's playing, and would like Slash to play on it. We do know some things. Some people just can't see it.

Truth is we can come to some logical conclusions based on Axl's actions in the past. If you think he's a liar, I can understand why speculating on this shit will come off as nonesense, but frankly, shrugging it off as nothing more than Axl doesn't give a fuck/doesn't have any good tunes anymore/lost his drive is lazy to me and just doesn't add up at all.

And no one said the tunes were not good enough when he turned those to the label other than the label and Bob Ezrin or some shit. There is no contradiction here.

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Rovim

[wasted]

The main reason I think some material exists is because Axl talked about the songs in the chats, Revolver interview. Calling it the second half of CD. 

But the reunion probably changes things in regards to that. 

[BorderlineCrazy]

28 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Actually, it is a fact. Axl has specifically stated the second half of Chinese has been completed for a long time now. You have no idea why Axl hasn't released another album after CD, that much is true. And while we don't know exactly why he did not release anything after Chinese, I have a few ideas. There got to be a limit? why? you can just not read it and/or discuss it. Simple.

Axl stated Slash was a cancer and he would never share a stage with him again. Is that a fact as well? Axl can think something is ready to go and change his mind 5 minutes later. It becomes a fact when it's released, which hasn't happened as far as I know.

I wasn't talking about censorship, I just find it amazing that you don't get tired of discussing the exact same thing over and over, all these long posts with the same explanations. But you're free to do whatever you want, if you enjoy it, go ahead.

42 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Speculation is a big part of discussion. Educated guesses based on what Axl said and others are frowned upon for some reason. That I do not understand or accept.

Especially when Axl has given a fairly clear idea recently of what he wants to do, and I think he was honest about it probably taking a long time. "Some people" just find it hard to accept for some reason.

So all these people talked about trilogies, new music coming "next year" and shit like that forever, nothing happened and you don't understand why people don't believe them anymore?

49 minutes ago, Rovim said:

No one claimed to know how Axl's mind works. That's silly. We don't need to. Axl has reunited with Slash and Duff, Axl likes to add "new" band members like Bumble and Frank to recordings, or like he replaced Izzy's guitar with Gilby's.

He also said CD ll is similar in approach to Chinese, and we know how Chinese sounds like. We also know Axl is impressed with Slash's playing, and would like Slash to play on it. We do know some things. Some people just can't see it.

You mean except for the times when you explained to us why Axl never releases new music, right?

He said that in what year? He could release that album as it was, he could do a completely new album from scratch. Do we know what he's going to do? NO, WE DON'T. Again, the guy saying "Slash can be a part of it if he wants" is the guy who said he didn't wanna have anything to do with Slash ever again. There's no way to know what he's gonna think/how he's gonna feel in 2 years from now, IMO.

1 hour ago, Rovim said:

Truth is we can come to some logical conclusions based on Axl's actions in the past. If you think he's a liar, I can understand why speculating on this shit will come off as nonesense, but frankly, shrugging it off as nothing more than Axl doesn't give a fuck/doesn't have any good tunes anymore/lost his drive is lazy to me and just doesn't add up at all.

And no one said the tunes were not good enough when he turned those to the label other than the label and Bob Ezrin or some shit. There is no contradiction here.

I don't think he's a liar and I'm sure he still has good music on him but if he doesn't release it then I don't care about making up excuses for him. What would matter to me is the fact that he didn't release anything, the reasons only he knows them.

[Rovim]

He said very recently he wants to release more music, talked about Slash, talked about what he wants to do next.

And you do realize plans change right? and that doesn't mean you're a liar if you fail correct?

I never claimed to know what Axl is thinking, everything that was just speculation was labeled as one, you're welcome to check every single one of my posts, you'll see that I'm very strict about making sure others know I don't have special powers and can't read Axl's mind.

It's not making excuses, I'm just trying to go by Axl's actions in the past, and understand what is the current situation. And yes, I enjoy it, I fuckin' love it and will never stop discussing Gn'R until I croak. Not that you should actually care.

What? you've never called someone a fuckin' idiot, and a shit stain before, only to bury the hatchet? is this behavior exclusive to Axl? can't believe I'm actually explaining this shit quite honestly.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Rovim

[Rovim]

7 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

We were having a conversation about specific things with specific references. If you're going to be vague and go off topic just to do so, go soak your head and sit down. 

Back on topic. I'm interested in CD II. If Axl was to be believed it's more "electronica and heavy guitars" which sounds great to me. 

If we do get a new GN'R album, and that's a pretty big if, I'm betting it's half CD II and half a stripped down '96 album. Basically Axl taking another stab at the CD concept of something old and something new. 

The lyrical direction for CD was more or less picking up the pieces and finding out how to cope with the situation he was in. I wonder what CD II is about.

I was replaying to Borderlinecrazy. I don't need to soak my head, and was talking about what I felt was relevant to this thread. Don't like it, don't read it.

The electronica and heavy guitar comment was said years and years ago. My guess is Slash and Duff back in Guns will changed all of that. He doesn't even perform stuff like Shackler's live, and that is less exotic sounding based on what Axl said so I don't know if that is what he still wants to do for the next album. He's talking about his clean vocals not being accepted which could mean going back to rasp, maybe going back to more vintage sounding material. It sounds more Hard Rock anyway with Slash and Duff. Stuff like Better for example.

He said CD ll touches on the same themes, but obviously we don't specifically know what's it about. He said darker, meaner about how it sounds, but not too different from Chinese.

And if he really considers Chinese to be a double, how different can it be compared to what got released? perhaps some tunes, but it will have to sound right with Slash and Duff on it I think.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

29 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Axl stated Slash was a cancer and he would never share a stage with him again. Is that a fact as well? Axl can think something is ready to go and change his mind 5 minutes later. It becomes a fact when it's released, which hasn't happened as far as I know.

I wasn't talking about censorship, I just find it amazing that you don't get tired of discussing the exact same thing over and over, all these long posts with the same explanations. But you're free to do whatever you want, if you enjoy it, go ahead.

So all these people talked about trilogies, new music coming "next year" and shit like that forever, nothing happened and you don't understand why people don't believe them anymore?

You mean except for the times when you explained to us why Axl never releases new music, right?

He said that in what year? He could release that album as it was, he could do a completely new album from scratch. Do we know what he's going to do? NO, WE DON'T. Again, the guy saying "Slash can be a part of it if he wants" is the guy who said he didn't wanna have anything to do with Slash ever again. There's no way to know what he's gonna think/how he's gonna feel in 2 years from now, IMO.

I don't think he's a liar and I'm sure he still has good music on him but if he doesn't release it then I don't care about making up excuses for him. What would matter to me is the fact that he didn't release anything, the reasons only he knows them.

It was first a 'trilogy' with tons of 'b-sides'. Then CD came out and it became a 'double album'. Then it became a nothing.

[Rovim]

Plans change. It did not become nothing, Slash and Duff back in Guns made CD ll irrelevant as is. (just speculation)

[DieselDaisy]

Plans do change. Especially when you pull those plans out of your arse.

[Rovim]

34 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Plans do change. Especially when you pull those plans out of your arse.

Nope. Especially when you're an insecure and obsessive musician who's rich as fuck and doesn't have to do shit to stay rich except maybe do a greatest hits tour.

I think he loves to tinker, I think he is very precious about Guns music and also very pretentious. If you ignore all these things, and do not understand that sometimes musicians go back to unreleased material and don't think all of it is as good as they've initially thought it was, yeah I can see why you wouldn't get that it's entirely possible trilogies turned to double albums and CD ll might have become irrelevant to Axl as soon as he called Slash.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Rovim

[Rovim]

2 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

So I was I. And anyone else who butt's in for no reason.

It's an open discussion, not a personal conversation. He mentioned someone that turned out to be me based on his later replay so what you're saying is just not true.

[BorderlineCrazy]

38 minutes ago, Rovim said:

He said very recently he wants to release more music, talked about Slash, talked about what he wants to do next.

And you do realize plans change right? and that doesn't mean you're a liar if you fail correct?

I never claimed to know what Axl is thinking, everything that was just speculation was labeled as one, you're welcome to check every single one of my posts, you'll see that I'm very strict about making sure others know I don't have special powers and can't read Axl's mind.

It's not making excuses, I'm just trying to go by Axl's actions in the past, and understand what is the current situation. And yes, I enjoy it, I fuckin' love it and will never stop discussing Gn'R until I croak. Not that you should actually care.

What? you've never called someone a fuckin' idiot, and a shit stain before, only to bury the hatchet? is this behavior exclusive to Axl? can't believe I'm actually explaining this shit quite honestly.

I'm gonna reduce it to a simple example. How many times can you "explain" Diesel that (according to you) Axl is obsessive and rich and all that? Do you think he's gonna chance his opinion on Axl? The way I see it, you're beating a dead horse but if you see it differently, that's fine.

And yes, I sometimes get mad at friends, but I insult them at that time, not 20 years later....

42 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

We were having a conversation about specific things with specific references. If you're going to be vague and go off topic just to do so, go soak your head and sit down. 

Back on topic. I'm interested in CD II. If Axl was to be believed it's more "electronica and heavy guitars" which sounds great to me. 

If we do get a new GN'R album, and that's a pretty big if, I'm betting it's half CD II and half a stripped down '96 album. Basically Axl taking another stab at the CD concept of something old and something new. 

The lyrical direction for CD was more or less picking up the pieces and finding out how to cope with the situation he was in. I wonder what CD II is about.

 Yeah, I'm the one going off topic. The thread is about how the perception on Chinese Democracy might have changed since Guns N' Roses got back together but whatever, please forgive me and go on talking about the style and lyrical direction of an album that as of now doesn't exist.

30 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

It was first a 'trilogy' with tons of 'b-sides'. Then CD came out and it became a 'double album'. Then it became a nothing.

What are you talking about, man? You just don't understand the album because it's way ahead of its time  

[Rovim]

Just now, BorderlineCrazy said:

I'm gonna reduce it to a simple example. How many times can you "explain" Diesel that (according to you) Axl is obsessive and rich and all that? Do you think he's gonna chance his opinion on Axl? The way I see it, you're beating a dead horse but if you see it differently, that's fine.

Repetition is the mother of learning.

[Blackstar]

8 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

And yes, I sometimes get mad at friends, but I insult them at that time, not 20 years later....

It's not the same with these two guys. They never stopped talking about each other during those twenty years (while they were not talking to each other) in interviews, books, rants, even songs lol

[wasted]

Axl did say songs were switching between the two cds. I could see Shacklers, Scraped even Better coming from that industrial album. CD became a mix of both. Atlas and The General were seen on earlier tracks lists but were held back. So we got a glimpse of CD II - which to me is more Bucket oriented. Whereas the first record was more Tobias, Finck and Dizzy songs. 

[DR DOOM]

23 hours ago, Rovim said:

Repetition is the mother of learning.

It's really time you gave this thread a break.

You know when a little kid gets pulled into line and they get that utterly transparent look on their face where you know they know they're in the wrong but they're going to punish daddy or mommy?

That's you.

[wasted]

34 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

Most of the record was the early conglomerate of Axl, Tobias, Stinson, Reed, Freese, and Pitman.

The truth is we've heard more of Buckethead's contributions (3 songs) than Finck's (1 song) and still not much.

It'll be quite curious to hear the rest of the stuff someday. 

I think Silkworms is Bucket on guitar, but I think of it as an example of something from the electronica/industrial album. 

So my guess is CD II was 30% CD, 70% industrial/electronica. That's why it's described as meaner, nastier.

Atlas seemed to be in the frame according to Zutaut as a single, so I assume it's something Illusiony. This is the type of stuff I expect to stay, Axl material. But Slash and Duff might do stuff that replaces the industrial/electronica tracks, maybe working with Axl on old material or from new lyrics/melodies. 

96 - CD era - new material. 

None of this is fact, just my speculation conjecture. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by wasted

[Rovim]

39 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

Most of the record was the early conglomerate of Axl, Tobias, Stinson, Reed, Freese, and Pitman.

The truth is we've heard more of Buckethead's contributions (4 songs) than Finck's (1 song) and still not much.

It'll be quite curious to hear the rest of the stuff someday. 

3 Buckethead tunes, not 4. Shackler's, Scraped, and Sorry.

[Silent Jay]

I think the pre-chorus and chorus of Shackler's Revenge was something they picked from Robin's ADAT tapes. He said some of his stuff were picked for certain parts. The 'I told you when I found you' riff during Prostitute is also something that Robin wrote. The 'Caught in the Lies' riff during Riad.

Not sure with Street Of Dreams and Catcher or Chinese but small contributions here and there. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Silent Jay

[Spaghetti Guy]

there's some incredible instrumental work on there

[Silent Jay]

Robin Finck and Paul Tobias are still the most credited musicians (non Axl Rose) on Chinese with seven ascap songwriting credits. Dizzy six. Stinson five. Buckethead three. Pitman/Mantia two. Josh Freese one credit which is of course the riff of the title track.

 

And also let's no forget, Brain wrote The General.

[Słash]

Rovim and Charlie/Wasted know more about CD II than Axl Rose himself 

[wasted]

1 hour ago, Silent Jay said:

I think the pre-chorus and chorus of Shackler's Revenge was something they picked from Robin's ADAT tapes. He said some of his stuff were picked for certain parts. The 'I told you when I found you' riff during Prostitute is also something that Robin wrote. The 'Caught in the Lies' riff during Riad.

Not sure with Street Of Dreams and Catcher or Chinese but small contributions here and there. 

I think Robin has a credit on SOD and played the Freese riff on Chi dem. 

So you think there's stuff more industrial/electronica than Silkworms, Shackler's, Scraped, Better, If the World? 

 

[wasted]

1 hour ago, Slash787 said:

Rovim and Charlie/Wasted know more about CD II than Axl Rose himself 

I'm just repeating what Axl said. I guess things are always changing. 

Now we have Slash and Duff in the mix. 

[Zurimor]

10 hours ago, Blackstar said:

The details of the deal are not known, so we don't know if it was for more than one album or if there were terms about possible unreleased stuff. Maybe the label has partial ownership of the rights of any material written and recorded during the CD era (the "vault"), but if it was an one album deal and Axl didn't owe them another album after the release of CD, he could have written and released new stuff under another label or made it a self release. The days of arenas and Rock in Rio had passed anyway post 2011, so he wouldn't have anything to lose in that regard. And it wouldn't have to be an album as overproduced as CD (that would have made a self release impossible). It could be an acoustic or stripped down piano album, but it seems that Axl isn't interested in doing something like this.

I still don't get it completely, if his material was rejected 25 times why he didn't break up with it at some point. I'd paid them off way before the 25th time and said something like "take that money and now go fuck yourself", he should've had that money.

One thing we can learn from this is, never make a long term contract with your label or even better, have your own one.

Btw, self release albums don't have to be any worse than those released on big labels, there are plenty of bands around with their own label which proof this.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Zurimor

[Silent Jay]

2 hours ago, wasted said:

I think Robin has a credit on SOD and played the Freese riff on Chi dem. 

So you think there's stuff more industrial/electronica than Silkworms, Shackler's, Scraped, Better, If the World? 

 

Sure, for all we know out of the forty songs locked in the vault, there could be 1/4 of them written by Pitman or Buckethead and Brain. That's almost an entire album hypothetically.

CDII only needs the right vision, Silkworms and Oh My God were once extremely dark and industrial, but now they seem to be funkier.

Take a look at Ides Of March, a synth loop a bit more melodic than Madagascar written by Dizwald and we also know he wrote Silkworms with Pitman. Zodiac could have been, and I assume, written by Pitman or Buckethead, who else could have wrote Zodiac? Brain wrote The General. Wagzsilla said Soul Monster is somewhat like Oh My God, but it's Paul Tobias actually who wrote Oh My God. So everyone got their own industrial songs.

Between Tobias, Dizzy and Stinson we have songs like Oklahoma/Berlin and we also have Going Down or Atlas Shrugged which primarily were written between '98-'01. Modern 70's rock with funk elements. I don't think there is many songs like that left in the vault, songs like Street Of Dreams, Catcher In The Rye, There Was A Time. Those songs where there to create a bridge between the Illusion era and Chinese imo.

You could draw a parallel between Use Your Illusion I and Use Your Illusion II. The orange and the blue one. The sleaze hard rock and the southern rock. Chinese Democracy isn't that angry, it's in fact very mellow. Both Better and I.R.S. have their sweet soft parts. Light retro/modern rock against dark synthfunk rock. But sometimes heavier doesn't mean better, it could be seen as less colourful and less melodic. That's why I think they went deep into funk music.

So we have The General and Jackie Chan (Brain, Buckethead), Soul Monster and Oh My God (Paul Tobias, Finck), Silkworms, Zodiac, Thyme and Beta's Barn (Pitman/Dizzy), Ides Of March, Going Down, Atlas and Berlin (Finck, Tobias, Stinson, Reed), Seven (Rose).

Quite same amounts in term of songwriting credits as CDI, is there any Tobias/Reed/Stinson songs left after that? So there is actually more room for Pitman/Buckethead/Brain/Finck, was it for CDII or for the third opus? And where the fuck Slash and Duff stand on top of this mess?

 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Silent Jay