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Chinese Democracy


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9 hours ago, Silent Jay said:

Sure, for all we know out of the forty songs locked in the vault, there could be 1/4 of them written by Pitman or Buckethead and Brain. That's almost an entire album hypothetically.

CDII only needs the right vision, Silkworms and Oh My God were once extremely dark and industrial, but now they seem to be funkier.

Take a look at Ides Of March, a synth loop a bit more melodic than Madagascar written by Dizwald and we also know he wrote Silkworms with Pitman. Zodiac could have been, and I assume, written by Pitman or Buckethead, who else could have wrote Zodiac? Brain wrote The General. Wagzsilla said Soul Monster is somewhat like Oh My God, but it's Paul Tobias actually who wrote Oh My God. So everyone got their own industrial songs.

Between Tobias, Dizzy and Stinson we have songs like Oklahoma/Berlin and we also have Going Down or Atlas Shrugged which primarily were written between '98-'01. Modern 70's rock with funk elements. I don't think there is many songs like that left in the vault, songs like Street Of Dreams, Catcher In The Rye, There Was A Time. Those songs where there to create a bridge between the Illusion era and Chinese imo.

You could draw a parallel between Use Your Illusion I and Use Your Illusion II. The orange and the blue one. The sleaze hard rock and the southern rock. Chinese Democracy isn't that angry, it's in fact very mellow. Both Better and I.R.S. have their sweet soft parts. Light retro/modern rock against dark synthfunk rock. But sometimes heavier doesn't mean better, it could be seen as less colourful and less melodic. That's why I think they went deep into funk music.

So we have The General and Jackie Chan (Brain, Buckethead), Soul Monster and Oh My God (Paul Tobias, Finck), Silkworms, Zodiac, Thyme and Beta's Barn (Pitman/Dizzy), Ides Of March, Going Down, Atlas and Berlin (Finck, Tobias, Stinson, Reed), Seven (Rose).

Quite same amounts in term of songwriting credits as CDI, is there any Tobias/Reed/Stinson songs left after that? So there is actually more room for Pitman/Buckethead/Brain/Finck, was it for CDII or for the third opus? And where the fuck Slash and Duff stand on top of this mess?

 

That fits with Axl saying What they have is similar to CD really. 

I guess if they have a frame work of songs that mirrors UYI II. Just having Slash play lead on them all and see what's best. It's not much different from all the writers on UYI. In that scenario the main thing is how do you blend new Slash material into it. 

At CE Axl was talking about writing from vocals and melodies, so that means new stuff or breaking the CD era material down into ideas. Like hears my vocal on Atlas what would you do with this demo. Just like Slash did with Better for example. 

 

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19 hours ago, wasted said:

That fits with Axl saying What they have is similar to CD really. 

I guess if they have a frame work of songs that mirrors UYI II. Just having Slash play lead on them all and see what's best. It's not much different from all the writers on UYI. In that scenario the main thing is how do you blend new Slash material into it. 

At CE Axl was talking about writing from vocals and melodies, so that means new stuff or breaking the CD era material down into ideas. Like hears my vocal on Atlas what would you do with this demo. Just like Slash did with Better for example. 

 

More or less yes.

I believe it's just a continuation of the songwriting process. CDII should me more Buckethead/Brain/Finck than Reed/Stinson/Tobias, with Bumblefoot's playing everywhere. And after that you go in the next phase let's call it CDIII.

One example is, imagine if Sorry didn't get released yet. Would do you let Slash take a shot at the song, see if he can top that or left it the way it is? When you hear Buckethead on that one you can immediately hear Slash's ghost in a way. So it's almost impossible for Slash to nail it more the way Bucketheat nailed it.

At the Revolver interview, Axl did say CDII is done, and they're also working on newest stuff. I imagine this newest stuff is something that Fortus and Dj Ashba worked at the time, or maybe is it something from Buckethead era again I don't know. 

My point is If CDII is done, why undone it? If it's a few leads here and there well yeah I'm ok. Just get Slash with the newest stuff, and maybe what's left from the '96 era, and let him do his own stuff with the actual line-up. We both know what Slash did with Better is a travesty.

 

Edited by Silent Jay
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Possibly.

That would mean that CD II will more than likely just not be released. Maybe there isn't much Axl material left on it. And stuff Axl was playing to Dj was more new ideas Axl has. 

I just don't see how they can release an album with Ron all over it in the reunion era with Slash in the band. Axl has offered his material up to Slash if he wants. 

It would be so Axl to be just ready to release CD II now. It's like the new line up always tours the old line ups album. Touring is somewhat seperate from Axl's artistic process in regards to records maybe.

I could see CD II and Remix as a back up plan. Even a legal trick. The label can't sue Axl for not fulfiling his contract, he has offered them records but they want Slash. 

My focus on a Reunion record maybe confusing me though. I keep thinking why would they have Bucket songs on a reunion record, but the reality is Fortus and Frank will most likely be on it. So it's never going to be a reunion record, so why throw out good material. 

I guess a UYI type blow out is in order: CD II ft Slash and old/new songs with current line up. Maybe if they condense that down to 12 songs for a Self titled record that might be it. 

 

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2 hours ago, wasted said:

It's like the new line up always tours the old line ups album. Touring is somewhat seperate from Axl's artistic process in regards to records maybe.

So true!

At the end of the day, I trust Axl's vision in any way. If we get a melting pot between '96 materials, newest stuff and a few Axl's classics like Atlas Shrugged. I won't spit on that but don't call it CDII. Let's dance around CDII in 2028 when all is set and done.

I guess having CDII as a legal trick is kinda smart. The fearest rock n roll at the legal department. No wonder why Axl wanted to call it Stay Of Execution.

Richard now says they're always rehearsing and coming up with new stuff, new ideas. But he always says that. Guess it's not the time right now, and one day Axl is gonna show up and say"so... let's hear what you got Slash".

 

Edited by Silent Jay
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7 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

I'm not sure why you're saying this. Oh My God was dumbed down and Silkworms sounded the exact same. 

The technofunk angle has always been there, especially with Buckethead's stuff. 

Oh My God has been said to be funkier with the new chorus and bridge, same with the newest stuff in Silkworms (chorus, fretless guitars).

Going Down sounds very funky to me, I mean Frank Ferrer got a lot of funk elements in his drumming, and you can't be funkier than a fretless guitar solo.

But yes you're right, like Scraped this electrofunk has already been there in some ways.

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8 hours ago, wasted said:

Possibly.

That would mean that CD II will more than likely just not be released. Maybe there isn't much Axl material left on it. And stuff Axl was playing to Dj was more new ideas Axl has. 

I just don't see how they can release an album with Ron all over it in the reunion era with Slash in the band. Axl has offered his material up to Slash if he wants. 

It would be so Axl to be just ready to release CD II now. It's like the new line up always tours the old line ups album. Touring is somewhat seperate from Axl's artistic process in regards to records maybe.

I could see CD II and Remix as a back up plan. Even a legal trick. The label can't sue Axl for not fulfiling his contract, he has offered them records but they want Slash. 

My focus on a Reunion record maybe confusing me though. I keep thinking why would they have Bucket songs on a reunion record, but the reality is Fortus and Frank will most likely be on it. So it's never going to be a reunion record, so why throw out good material. 

I guess a UYI type blow out is in order: CD II ft Slash and old/new songs with current line up. Maybe if they condense that down to 12 songs for a Self titled record that might be it. 

 

My interpretation of what Axl said in China Exchange about Slash if he wants to play on it he can is that it could have been a way to say that all the work that has been already completed would not just be replaced by Slash simply cause he's back.

I think it's possible Axl will at least keep some stuff, the best shit or what he's the most attached to that perhaps Bucket recorded or Robin.

Wild guess here, but what if Axl asks Slash to play on all of it, all the material and picks the takes Slash topped? what  Bucket and Robin already created that is already pretty much faultless, stays. That way, it makes sense. He replaced Bucket's Shackler's solo with Bumble's. I think Axl just uses what he likes the best. He has no problem adding current players, but he won't replace what is already perfect, like Bucket's There Was A Time outro.

I could be very wrong obviously, but that's my best guess. I also believe a lot of it will be dictated by how good Slash is in the studio. I believe it's likely he'll come up with shit that Axl will like based on his reactions live to Slash's playing on Chinese tracks.

Edited by Rovim
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2 hours ago, Rovim said:

My interpretation of what Axl said in China Exchange about Slash if he wants to play on it he can is that it could have been a way to say that all the work that has been already completed would not just be replaced by Slash simply cause he's back.

I think it's possible Axl will at least keep some stuff, the best shit or what he's the most attached to that perhaps Bucket recorded or Robin.

Wild guess here, but what if Axl asks Slash to play on all of it, all the material and picks the takes Slash topped? what  Bucket and Robin already created that is already pretty much faultless, stays. That way, it makes sense. He replaced Bucket's Shackler's solo with Bumble's. I think Axl just uses what he likes the best. He has no problem adding current players, but he won't replace what is already perfect, like Bucket's There Was A Time outro.

I could be very wrong obviously, but that's my best guess. I also believe a lot of it will be dictated by how good Slash is in the studio. I believe it's likely he'll come up with shit that Axl will like based on his reactions live to Slash's playing on Chinese tracks.

There does seem to be barn full of hay to dive into. Dj was talking about that. But there also could be a more finished record that is basically finished. Maybe the stop gap album will be CD II with Slash input. Then later fresher material. 

Edited by wasted
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People keep referencing Silkworms new version and Oh My God new version - are there demos knocking around?

With regards to CD2/3/etc I'd rather have it left untouched. I want to hear more Bucket and Axl, I want to hear Finck's blues solo Axl talked about, I want to hear the Beavan and RTB versions to compare etc. Even if it isn't "classic" gnr who cares, keep it as it is and when the time is right release it.

Any new stuff with slash should only be pre 1997 or post 2015 I think, true new music.

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1 hour ago, ToonGuns said:

People keep referencing Silkworms new version and Oh My God new version - are there demos knocking around?

With regards to CD2/3/etc I'd rather have it left untouched. I want to hear more Bucket and Axl, I want to hear Finck's blues solo Axl talked about, I want to hear the Beavan and RTB versions to compare etc. Even if it isn't "classic" gnr who cares, keep it as it is and when the time is right release it.

Any new stuff with slash should only be pre 1997 or post 2015 I think, true new music.

I'd rather have the pure Chinese experience as well, and a separate album with the current line up later but I don't know if Axl is interested in doing that. He is open to Slash being a part of at least some of the unreleased material.

And how long will a fresh album will take to complete? for Axl I mean? another decade? half? a lifetime maybe? at this point I am so desperate, yes, desperate for new material that I just don't care. Don't actually care what it'll be. Only that it's timeless with Axl vocals on it and with great guitar players.

Going by how Axl dealt with line up changes in the past, it seems like he likes to keep some stuff from previous members and add current members based on mostly quality of their work and what fits the album best in general. Even after Chinese was released, he said about CD ll in the chats: "same players" meaning Bucket and Robin.

Slash is now back, if he wants to be a part of the material Axl played him, I can't really see Axl not using him at least partially on some of the unreleased tracks Axl still wants to use. CD ll may be completed, but is anything really finished until it's released for Axl? remains to be seen.

Edited by Rovim
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Just now, Rovim said:

Just to be clear: I meant I'd rather have CD ll untouched by Slash and Duff, released and then get a fresh album with Axl starting all of it from lyrics and melodies first, fresh material.

I just don't think that is a realistic scenario at all.

Yes.

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2 hours ago, MisterBrownstoner said:

I hope that Axl would make 10 decent songs from the vault along with Slash/Duff. I dont expect the vault to be full of great songs, since CD I sucked for the most part. No reason to want CD II without changes. If they could do that, plus 2-4 new songs or pre 1997 songs, that would be a killer album.

You don't even know what CD ll sounds like, yet you're talking about making some changes.

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9 hours ago, Wagszilla said:

Axl himself said that what got released was "what got through the red tape".

Leaks played a huge role in what got released.

Zutaut said Atlas Shrugged was one of the stronger tunes they had. Josh Freese said he wrote 4 or 5 tunes, all of those were on the AAA list. Beltrami did orchestration for some unreleased tunes, said Seven was his favorite, Robin said his favorite guitar moments weren't even released.

We have no idea how many big guns remain unreleased or how the material sounds like, but Axl played some of those to Slash and Duff and they liked it apparently.

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9 hours ago, MisterBrownstoner said:

Highly doubt that he keep the best for the second part of his CD. 

I didn't say he kept the best for the second part. But concluding it's all weak material is silly cause we have no idea what it sounds like. Some tunes have to be strong cause every Guns album had at least a few big guns. CD ll was completed and was intended for release. There is no way Axl would have released an album with only weak tunes. And even if Down By The Ocean is a weak tune, I still want to hear it. And the old Slash riff.

Edited by Rovim
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The way the Best Buy deal was done and all the trouble with Azoff I wouldn't be surprised if Axl held something back for what he planned to release a year later. 

Because of the alternative slant of the material and dark themes it's not quite as commercial as Aero DC and Elton epics anyway so I don't expect an obvious hit. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

Axl really needs to make a deal with Marvel. Just put Atlas Shrugged on Guardians Of The Galaxy II or The Avengers Infinity War and it's a guaranteed hit. Just get along with the hype.

Just a feeling, but I think it's a full album or nothing. You can't make a statement with 1 tune, which is what I think Axl is aiming for.

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3 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Just a feeling, but I think it's a full album or nothing. You can't make a statement with 1 tune, which is what I think Axl is aiming for.

Maybe as a pre-album single to launch the real thing later. Marvel loves AC/DC and Black Sabbath, why not GN'R? Body Of Lies wasn't that of a success because the band work best with blockbusters (End Of Days/T2).

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