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Tommy Stinson: Chinese Democracy "kinda got yanked from Axl's hands a little bit prematurely"


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2 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Stradlin explored new genres.

Listen, I'm not even that arsed about whether or not Axl is experimental. Experimental acts tend to produce excrement at the best of times. But all CD is is a bunch of bleeping and farting over some '90s metal - and the ballads. How is that experimental?

You mean izzy explorers different genres not newer

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1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

I consider Contraband and Chinese to be heavily influenced by numetal and have been fairly consistent in that view.

Influenced by Korn, Linkin Park and that kind of horrid bands? Not in the slightest.

I agree with your "huh?" about that weird 60's comment, though.

7 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

not a huge lie, just in comparison to what they are together to what they are apart ditz  

Saying they're better together is one thing (and I totally agree) but saying they suck on their own doesn't make any sense to me.

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Just now, BorderlineCrazy said:

Influenced by Korn, Linkin Park and that kind of horrid bands? Not in the slightest.

 

If you are discussing Contraband it is filled with all these horrendous songs. Maybe 'numetal' is a little too specific. Perhaps the term, ''late nineties metal'' is a better term. A good example is the song Big Machine.

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4 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Influenced by Korn, Linkin Park and that kind of horrid bands? Not in the slightest.

I agree with your "huh?" about that weird 60's comment, though.

Saying they're better together is one thing (and I totally agree) but saying they suck on their own doesn't make any sense to me.

it does to me when you compare Axl's songwriting skills on CD versus GNR - we can agree to disagree but a fairer assessment is to say that the songwriting title within GNR OG's goes to IZZY and AXL together and separate they just can't reach new song stardom again- that my friend is a pure fact  

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52 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I consider Contraband and Chinese to be heavily influenced by numetal and have been fairly consistent in that view.

I wouldn't  call it nu-metal. Both had elements of 90s industrial rock and UYI.  CD had elements of progressive classic rock like Pink Floyd and Zeppelin. Contraband had elements of Bowie/Beatles and Grunge/Punk thanks to Scott and Duff. Especially since they all shared a love for AIC and the Sex Pistols. 

Both albums shared similar influences much like UYI.  The evaluation of CD from UYI was a very good concept and follow up if Guns had not disbanded. Weren't so wasted on drugs and alcohol and hung in there to see it through. And most importantly if Axl had released it sometime between 2001-2006. Very good concept but terrible execution unfortunately 

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Chinese Democracy had some good ideas that could have been fleshed out into something great if Sluff and Izzy had been allowed to craft them. 

Take for example, Sorry. Musically, a strong piece with a great David Gilmour-esque Buckethead solo. What did Axl do with that? Added some of the worst lyrics in GnR history along with a Count Dracula portion which took a potentially great song and made it average-ish at best. This essentially is the case with most of Chinese Democracy. 

As it stands, CD is an ambitious failure with some nice ideas peppered throughout. 

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14 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

 

If you are discussing Contraband it is filled with all these horrendous songs. Maybe 'numetal' is a little too specific. Perhaps the term, ''late nineties metal'' is a better term. A good example is the song Big Machine.

Yeah, I think 90's metal is a bit more appropriate than calling Contraband a Nu-metal record. and yeah, Big Machine is a dud.

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20 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Influenced by Korn, Linkin Park and that kind of horrid bands? Not in the slightest.

I agree with your "huh?" about that weird 60's comment, though.

Saying they're better together is one thing (and I totally agree) but saying they suck on their own doesn't make any sense to me.

Right that's nu-metal to me. Add limp bizkit and staind to that list. Late 90s was an awful time for rock music 

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1 minute ago, Wagszilla said:

The album defies classification as it is a thoroughly postmodern record.

There are elements of funk to Shacklers, Scraped, and If The World. There are psychedelic elements to If The World, Prostitute, and most overtly on Sorry which has always felt very Floyd-ian to me. 

You can replace psychedelic with symphonic prog rock if you like. 

 

 Can I replace psychedelic with symphonic pap rock instead?

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30 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

 

If you are discussing Contraband it is filled with all these horrendous songs. Maybe 'numetal' is a little too specific. Perhaps the term, ''late nineties metal'' is a better term. A good example is the song Big Machine.

There's nothing nu-metal about Big Machine. As a matter of fact I don't even know how to describe that song it is so weird. VR were able to develop their own progressive sound in a very short time compared to CD.  Superhuman is another progressive one with a real GNR edge.

The one rocker Newguns produced wasn't even included on CD which was a travesty. Oh My God which I alluded to earlier. It had elements of 90s industrial rock but had that edgy sound you expect from gnr. Like hearing WTTJ out of nowhere after being subjected to all the crap music they called Rock throughout the 80s

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17 minutes ago, NicDwolfwood said:

Yeah, I think 90's metal is a bit more appropriate than calling Contraband a Nu-metal record. and yeah, Big Machine is a dud.

I used to think Big Machine was the dud on the record but it was great hearing it live man. Great live song! And it was probably a hell of a lot of fun to play which is why they liked it

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15 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

If you are discussing Contraband it is filled with all these horrendous songs. Maybe 'numetal' is a little too specific. Perhaps the term, ''late nineties metal'' is a better term. A good example is the song Big Machine.

Well, Scott himself was in a pretty big band in the late nineties. Not a metal band, though. I think Big Machine is one of the weakest songs on the album but doesn't sound like any kind metal to me, it sounds like the shitty sister of Unglued (Scott ripped himself off :lol:). There's one really awful song that deserves to be compared with shitty bands like Limp Bizkit or Linkin Park and that's Illegal I Song, but that piece of shit doesn't represent the album at all (thank god!). Then you have the slower songs like Fall To Pieces, You Got No Right and Loving The Alien and songs like Sucker Train Blues, Do It For The Kids, Slither, Set Me Free, Dirty Little Thing (and Come On Come which didn't make the album for whatever reason). It can have many drop D songs and a shittty production but it's still definitely a rock album to me.

32 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

it does to me when you compare Axl's songwriting skills on CD versus GNR - we can agree to disagree but a fairer assessment is to say that the songwriting title within GNR OG's goes to IZZY and AXL together and separate they just can't reach new song stardom again- that my friend is a pure fact  

I don't see how Axl's songwriting changed. He's never been able to come up with killer rock songs by himself. All the rockers (Jungle, Nightrain, Brownstone, OTGM, Michelle, RNDTH, Perfect Crime, GOE, YCBM...) have either Slash or Izzy (or both) credited as songwriters (sometimes along with Axl or with other people too). Axl needed them for those kind of songs and he said so himself (about Slash) talking to Kurt Loader. He still came up with great piano parts and vocal melodies on CD, though.

And about Izzy, he wrote amazing songs but there's no chance to have a hit when you don't promote your music at all. Also, many of those songs could have been massive hits with Axl's voice and a solo by Slash, but being written solely by Izzy.

I also think Slash was as big as them in the songwriting department. He was part of Jungle, Nightrain, OTGM, Browstone, PC, SCOM, Rocket Queen, Coma, Civil War, Locomotive and some others.

37 minutes ago, Top-Hatted One said:

Right that's nu-metal to me. Add limp bizkit and staind to that list. Late 90s was an awful time for rock music 

Yeah, those bands were terrible! Not even Axl in the "Slash is a cancer" days would compare VR with that :lol:

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1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

 

If you are discussing Contraband it is filled with all these horrendous songs. Maybe 'numetal' is a little too specific. Perhaps the term, ''late nineties metal'' is a better term. A good example is the song Big Machine.

Horrendous songs? Get a f'ing clue.

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VR sounds a little like Stone temple pilots, sometimes like UYI without the Izzy. 

But I guess people see different things in Guns. Some think it's the Izzy that makes them, other's it's the sound etc. So then they think which ever solo project sounds more like Guns based on that. 

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Chinese Democracy was never an industrial record. I don't hear it. I'm ok with the term electronic rock but there are all kinds of styles, a bit of Queen, some blues riffs and solos more based on Zappa that Joe Perry etc.

For the experimental thing, not so much. It's just that Axl pushed the envelope too far with the arrangements, 12 strings guitars sub-bass and mellotron music. It's a true departure from the original sound, but the songs remain simple, typical power chord progressions.

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Love " Come on, Come in" its in drop D tuning which was symbolic of late 90s new metal but so STP was dropping D well before. Slither, Superhuman, Headapace also drop D. 

Thanks to those shitty nu-metal bands, classic rock fans hear drop D and now associate it with nu-metal.

Also Illegal eye Blew me away when I first heard the album. Not nu-metal at all. 

It was written by Dave Kushner and they said it was highly influenced by the hardcore punk band The Refused with Scott's vocals channeling Perry Ferrell

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54 minutes ago, Silent Jay said:

Chinese Democracy was never an industrial record. I don't hear it. I'm ok with the term electronic rock but there are all kinds of styles, a bit of Queen, some blues riffs and solos more based on Zappa that Joe Perry etc.

For the experimental thing, not so much. It's just that Axl pushed the envelope too far with the arrangements, 12 strings guitars sub-bass and mellotron music. It's a true departure from the original sound, but the songs remain simple, typical power chord progressions.

Ministry is industrial. I'd say CD is more 90s Alternative rock. But half of it is classic rock, alternative classic rock. 

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13 minutes ago, wasted said:

Korn is nu metal.

STP were kind of more of a grunge band? 

I don't associate Korn with the other nu-metal bands that followed them later in the 90s. Same as I don't associate Motley Crue with Poison. 

What usually winds up happening when I have a new band with a fresh new sound that achieves commercial success you get a lot of copy cat bands. Cookie Cutter watered down cash cows

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3 minutes ago, Top-Hatted One said:

I don't associate Korn with the other nu-metal bands that followed them later in the 90s. Same as I don't associate Motley Crue with Poison. 

What usually winds up happening when I have a new band with a fresh new sound that achieves commercial success you get a lot of copy cat bands. Cookie Cutter watered down cash cows

I think those kind of fall in the category though.

Whereas as VR probably have some nu metal/grunge elements but without really being nu metal or grunge really. 

Maybe GNR and STP are stronger label than the categories. I've seen Contraband in hard rock and alternative sections. 

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22 minutes ago, wasted said:

Korn is nu metal.

STP were kind of more of a grunge band? 

Core, their first and most commercially successful record, definitely had that grunge sound but they quickly abandoned grunge after that. Purple and Tiny Music incorporated all their musical influences like the Beatles, Bowie etc. and No. 4 had some nu-metal mixed in as Scott was into those early nu-metal bands. Then there were some stones and Glen Campbell

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