Jump to content

Tommy Stinson: Chinese Democracy "kinda got yanked from Axl's hands a little bit prematurely"


Recommended Posts

4 minutes ago, Top-Hatted One said:

Core, their first and most commercially successful record, definitely had that grunge sound but they quickly abandoned grunge after that. Purple and Tiny Music incorporated all their musical influences like the Beatles, Bowie etc. and No. 4 had some nu-metal mixed in as Scott was into those early nu-metal bands. Then there were some stones and Glen Campbell

I've heard STP called post-grunge. They were in that scene but weren't Sub pop or the most prominent band, they had more glam elements like you said. Maybe it is those things that Slash thought worked for VR. Scott was more rock n roll than Soundgarden. 

It's hard to place supergroups. Not sure what Audioslave were either. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Top-Hatted One said:

I don't associate Korn with the other nu-metal bands that followed them later in the 90s. Same as I don't associate Motley Crue with Poison. 

What usually winds up happening when I have a new band with a fresh new sound that achieves commercial success you get a lot of copy cat bands. Cookie Cutter watered down cash cows

They are guilty by association for sure, they inspired a hell of alot of awful music and became a watered down version of themselves by the late nineties. The first two albums are really bizzare and quite interesting, there's some good stuff there.

Edited by Silverburst80
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, wasted said:

I've heard STP called post-grunge. They were in that scene but weren't Sub pop or the most prominent band, they had more glam elements like you said. Maybe it is those things that Slash thought worked for VR. Scott was more rock n roll than Soundgarden. 

It's hard to place supergroups. Not sure what Audioslave were either. 

 

Prior to VR slash voiced his dislike for STP and said he preferred AIC and Soundgarden from that era.

Duff was probably indifferent. It was Matt who was more of a fan and knew Scott from a stint in rehab. Matt plays with STP's bass player(Rob Deleo) in Kings of Chaos now.

Also Duff's and Scott's wives were hanging out probably scheming to get their husbands to work together.

They might've not been huge STP fans at the time but they all knew who Scott was and respected him as one of the last great frontmen in rock n roll. 

Edited by Top-Hatted One
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Silent Jay said:

Never really heard Contraband, is it good? Which songs should I listen? I thought VR albums were full of fillers

LA Weekly wrote it was surreal watching Slash play funkier versions of Chinese and Better.

Just check out the album and form an opinion based on what your ears like or dont. Me personally, I liked it because its a loud Rock n Roll album, and Slash was pulling out some odd-ball sounds outta his guitars. headspace and Big Machine are the only songs I didnt care all that much for, but 12 outta 14 isnt that bad..

 

Also, STP being labeled a grunge band was just lazy classification on people's part. the first album you could say is grunge, but i thought they moved away from that which each release following Core. plus, its also dumb to say VR sounded like STP when majority of the instrumentals were already written before Scott came through the door. he more or less just chose tunes he could put lyrics and melodies over it. IMO Scott involvement in the music writing process went in the opposite direction for the 2nd VR record, Its significantly weaker than Contraband imo, its an album I cant get passed halfway through it.

Edited by NicDwolfwood
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, wasted said:

I think those kind of fall in the category though.

Whereas as VR probably have some nu metal/grunge elements but without really being nu metal or grunge really. 

Maybe GNR and STP are stronger label than the categories. I've seen Contraband in hard rock and alternative sections. 

Exactly. They have some elements. Like GN'R. It would be wrong to categorize GN'R as a punk or metal band or say they sound like Elton John after hearing Nov Rain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, NicDwolfwood said:

Just check out the album and form an opinion based on what your ears like or dont. Me personally, I liked it because its a loud Rock n Roll album, and Slash was pulling out some odd-ball sounds outta his guitars. 

For whatever reason I forced myself to listen to a few tracks and it is terrible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Top-Hatted One said:

Prior to VR slash voiced his dislike for STP and said he preferred AIC and Soundgarden from that era.

Duff was probably indifferent. It was Matt who was more of a fan and knew Scott from a stint in rehab. Matt plays with STP's bass player(Rob Deleo) in Kings of Chaos now.

Also Duff's and Scott's wives were hanging out probably scheming to get their husbands to work together.

They might've not been huge STP fans at the time but they all knew who Scott was and respected him as one of the last great frontmen in rock n roll. 

He's a great frontman, maybe the only one that could pull off VR. Duff has been the instigator twice now, Slash sort of loiters around but he must have final say. Like he wanted a proper frontman so the band could be big. Not Izzy or Duff singing. Slash and Duff are a great team. Duff even got Scott sober for a while. 

Edited by wasted
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, RONIN said:

Chinese Democracy had some good ideas that could have been fleshed out into something great if Sluff and Izzy had been allowed to craft them. 

Take for example, Sorry. Musically, a strong piece with a great David Gilmour-esque Buckethead solo. What did Axl do with that? Added some of the worst lyrics in GnR history along with a Count Dracula portion which took a potentially great song and made it average-ish at best. This essentially is the case with most of Chinese Democracy. 

As it stands, CD is an ambitious failure with some nice ideas peppered throughout. 

I think Sorry would have been fine with the lyrics, if it weren't for the fact that the 1st verse is nearly two fucking minutes long. I think he should have kept the more "melodic" vocal lines, and done away with the almost spoken word type lines.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Mendez said:

I think Sorry would have been fine with the lyrics, if it weren't for the fact that the 1st verse is nearly two fucking minutes long. I think he should have kept the more "melodic" vocal lines, and done away with the almost spoken word type lines.

Sorry is Alternative Rant Rock. The almost spoken word type lines work. First verse is not nearly two minutes long. It slowly builds up and the chorus is explosive.

Edited by Rovim
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

44 minutes ago, Rovim said:

Sorry is Alternative Rant Rock. The almost spoken word type lines work. First verse is not nearly two minutes long. It slowly builds up and the chorus is explosive.

I always liked Sorry. And yeah, when the chorus and that beat kicks in it hits hard.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, wasted said:

Blame the label. 

i blame lots of dummies for 0 music videos and singles from chinese democracy. but axl never pulled the trigger on the better video. better was a single. but better was poorly promoted by axl. and when you never release the music vid for better that smells trouble and a little blood in the water. another song never released: blood in the water. axl sits on stuff. never pulls the trigger. never releases. what does axl do? axl tours tours tours and tours some more. axl the "tour cash" man rose. when tommy says Chinese was premature. i can say many things is premature about Chinese. 0 successful singles. no music videos. no promotion. axl didn't even introduce Madagascar at mtv vma 2002. kurt loder didn't ask axl what was that new song you played tonight. poor promotion. dysfunction. wasted talent. wasted potential. wasted songs. wasted album. everything is wasted for Chinese since Chinese 2008 release. and that's not premature that's AXL

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/21/2017 at 9:34 PM, NicDwolfwood said:

Just check out the album and form an opinion based on what your ears like or dont. Me personally, I liked it because its a loud Rock n Roll album, and Slash was pulling out some odd-ball sounds outta his guitars. headspace and Big Machine are the only songs I didnt care all that much for, but 12 outta 14 isnt that bad..

 

Also, STP being labeled a grunge band was just lazy classification on people's part. the first album you could say is grunge, but i thought they moved away from that which each release following Core. plus, its also dumb to say VR sounded like STP when majority of the instrumentals were already written before Scott came through the door. he more or less just chose tunes he could put lyrics and melodies over it. IMO Scott involvement in the music writing process went in the opposite direction for the 2nd VR record, Its significantly weaker than Contraband imo, its an album I cant get passed halfway through it.

Actually Scott didn't like the first demo tape they sent him. He thought it was uninspiring and too "Bad Company" Thats when they started writing and crafting songs that would appeal to Scott and his more current and older influences.

VR sounds nothing like STP is correct. With the exception maybe of Scott's voice which was not the same as it was in the beginning of STP a way. 

Edited by Top-Hatted One
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Night Drive Lonelinessl said:

i blame lots of dummies for 0 music videos and singles from chinese democracy. but axl never pulled the trigger on the better video. better was a single. but better was poorly promoted by axl. and when you never release the music vid for better that smells trouble and a little blood in the water. another song never released: blood in the water. axl sits on stuff. never pulls the trigger. never releases. what does axl do? axl tours tours tours and tours some more. axl the "tour cash" man rose. when tommy says Chinese was premature. i can say many things is premature about Chinese. 0 successful singles. no music videos. no promotion. axl didn't even introduce Madagascar at mtv vma 2002. kurt loder didn't ask axl what was that new song you played tonight. poor promotion. dysfunction. wasted talent. wasted potential. wasted songs. wasted album. everything is wasted for Chinese since Chinese 2008 release. and that's not premature that's AXL

Kind of, sort of and not really. 

Axl made the Better video himself? The label didn't fund a video or promotion, it was handed off to Best Buy. The label told them not to bother making a video. 

The promotion was Shackler's on Rock Band (supposedly the band wanted this as the single) and If the World on Body of Lies. 

Maybe the Better video was meant for release. Axl said there were video ideas for Shackler's involving Mickey Rourke but there was no funding. 

The label pulled the plug in 2004. Anything past that in terms of promotion is probably dreaming. 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, wasted said:

Kind of, sort of and not really. 

Axl made the Better video himself? The label didn't fund a video or promotion, it was handed off to Best Buy. The label told them not to bother making a video. 

The promotion was Shackler's on Rock Band (supposedly the band wanted this as the single) and If the World on Body of Lies. 

Maybe the Better video was meant for release. Axl said there were video ideas for Shackler's involving Mickey Rourke but there was no funding. 

The label pulled the plug in 2004. Anything past that in terms of promotion is probably dreaming. 

 

 

By the time it came out, the label was just ready to get it out and make whatever money the could off of it. Axl was pissed so he wasn't promoting shit.

I wished they had the balls to release it in the early 2000s. Sounds to me like they didn't like the different sound and wanted something more GNR sounding. Which is understandable. But if it had gotten released back then, we would have probably gotten the whole nine yards as far as big promotion and vids and whatnot. At that time there was an actual cohesive band to get behind. Shit, Axl didn't have a single lead guitarist when CD was released, they were all gone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Wagszilla said:

Axl wanted the record out in 2000, we don't know exactly why it didn't. 

The label didn't like the raw sounds of the Beavan produced album and brought in Roy Thomas Baker for a more grandiose, classic sound.

I think the 97-99 band, leaks, and material actually are actually a far closer approximation to the original band. 

I'm with that. Everything back then had a little different feel to it. Even the song CD sounded different. And better in imo. Just a little different sound and feel.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Wagszilla said:

You'll hear no argument from me on that front.

CD sounded far more ballsy in 2001, The Blues was up-tempo and had more verve, Axl's high pitched vocals made Madagascar more pleasing to the ear. 

The project lost it's flavor with each new revision. Quite a shame. I really need that box set so I can hear the superior versions.

 

I would love to hear the final album from that time, agree with all of that. And yeah, Maddy was better back then, again, just that little bit of different feel made a huge difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 hours ago, Top-Hatted One said:

Actually Scott didn't like the first demo tape they sent him. He thought it was uninspiring and too "Bad Company" Thats when they started writing and crafting songs that would appeal to Scott. 

VR sounds nothing like STP is correct. With the exception maybe of Scott's voice which was not the same as it was in the beginning of STP a way. 

very true. good post! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see a lot of fans talking about CD "losing it's flavor" or "it's a different feel". Yeah, I would love to hear a final and mixed version of the Beaven album, but it's not like ALL the changes were shitty and made Chinese worse.

If Axl released Chinese in 1999, we would have gotten a Bucketless Chinese. I'm not sure I would have loved There Was A Time as much as I love the released version without his outro.

The tracklisting would have been totally different: no Better. Maybe on a different album but who's to say Axl would have managed to release 2 albums? he barely released Chinese.

Axl tinkered with the material and incorporated more guitar players. Many don't like Bumble's additions, even if I love his contributions for the most part. But Bucket's playing is all over Chinese, a main element even. 3 tunes and a lot of lead playing.

Now that we have this version of it, it's possible Axl would consider releasing a box set in the future with different versions of Chinese, or at least something from earlier incarnations of the album. We have the 1999 demos. Of all of those only Catcher stands out to me as an interesting representation of what could have been.

Edited by Rovim
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...