Tommy Stinson: Chinese Democracy "kinda got yanked from Axl's hands a little bit prematurely"

[Len Cnut]

Just now, Rovim said:

I think Tommy was talking about the tracklistingm mainly. So not necessarily needing more time to tinker more with the tunes that got released.

Just another couple of years to decide what songs go on it then?

[Rovim]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

Just another couple of years to decide what songs go on it then?

Not really. I think there were other tunes that were newer and maybe not completed yet and Tommy liked those better compared to some of the material that got released.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, Rovim said:

Not really. I think there were other tunes that were newer and maybe not completed yet and Tommy liked those better compared to some of the material that got released.

So more time recording then?  We're back where we started.  Further back even.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Len Cnut

[Rovim]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

So more time recording then?  We're back where we started.  Further back even.

It's a vicious tinkering cycle.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, Rovim said:

It's a vicious tinkering cycle.

This is fuckin' textbook Freudian shit, basically they all knew it was a fuckin' pig of an album.  No one that has fuckin' faith in material acts like that with it. 

[Rovim]

9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

This is fuckin' textbook Freudian shit, basically they all knew it was a fuckin' pig of an album.  No one that has fuckin' faith in material acts like that with it. 

It's a great album. There is no way you'll like this kind of shit bro. You are not into alternative rock. And by alternative I mean what influenced it. And you're not into Queen and shred guitar. So why would you like Chinese?

Even alternative rock masterpieces will sound like shit to you. Or say I give you what is considered to be the best fuckin' Metal album ever made. You're the wrong audience for it man. Basically, you are the problem. Not Chinese Democracy.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Rovim

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, Rovim said:

It's a great album. There is no way you'll like this kind of shit bro. You are not into alternative rock. And by alternative I mean what influenced it. And you're not into queen and shred guitar. So why would you like Chinese?

Even alternative rock masterpieces will sound like shit to you. Or say I give you what is considered to be the best fuckin' Metal album ever made. You're the wrong audience for it man. Basically, you are the problem. Not Chinese Democracy.

I like plenty of classic rock albums, Ziggy Stardust, Appetite..uh...   The fuckin' entire Beatles discography, all The Stones early shit up until Goats Head Soup...then a couple after that with Some Girls etc...all The Who albums up until Who Are You, I like Cream, I like everything Hendrix ever did, I ain't got a problem with rock music.

i like Chi Dem to a point too, i just think it's over-produced and an unworthy addition to Gunses catalogue, especially since it took 50 years to make.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Len Cnut

[Rovim]

5 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I like plenty of classic rock albums, Ziggy Stardust, Appetite..uh...   The fuckin' entire Beatles discography, all The Stones early shit up until Goats Head Soup...then a couple after that with Some Girls etc...all The Who albums up until Who Are You, I like Cream, I like everything Hendrix ever did, I ain't got a problem with rock music.

But Chinese is not classic rock. And it is different in many aspects compared to classic Guns albums. Shackler's is not like The Beatles or The Stones. There is shred guitar all over the fucker. It is nothing like Cream, The Who or Some Girls.
 

That was my point: take Better for example. Considered by many to be one of if not the strongest cut on the album. You probably think it's "a load of bollocks". It's influenced by Nine Inch Nails, the guitar player from that band was yanked from a traveling circus to join Gn'R. Why would you like an album that has tunes like Sorry for example, influenced by Pink Floyd?

It's not Appetite For Destruction anymore. And it has Queen arrangements with fuckin' Roy Thomas Baker as one of the producers. I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from. Why would you like This I Love? it's a great Elton John type gay ballad.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Rovim

[Len Cnut]

Just now, Rovim said:

But Chinese is not classic rock. And it is different in many aspects compared to classic Guns albums. Shackler's is not like The Beatles or The Stones. There is shred guitar all over the fucker. It is nothing like Cream, The Who or Some Girls.
 

That was my point: take Better for example. Considered by many to be one of if not the strongest cut on the album. You probably think it's "a load of bollocks". It's influenced by Nine Inc Nails, the guitar player from that band was yanked from a traveling circus to join Gn'R. Why would you like an album that has tunes like Sorry for example, influenced by Pink Floyd?

It's not Appetite For Destruction anymore. And it has Queen arrangements with fuckin' Roy Thomas Baker as one of the producers. I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from. Why would you like This I Love? it's a great Elton John type gay ballad.

I like Better, i think the guitar work on it is lovely, i think TWAT is good (demo sounded better), i think Madagascar is a wonderfully syurupy self-righteous fuckin' song, it's brilliant.  Chinese Democracy was alright to begin with but it's pretty shit really, TIL is shit, Shacklers is shit, If the World sounds like a half idea, Shacklers is just uninspired, Prostitute is dull, Street of Dreams suffers from being a good song terribly over-produced, Catcher in the Rye is boring though it has an interesting melody, Sorry is just pants, Rhiad too, IRS is good.

I like lots of ballads, doo wop stuff, Kathy Young, extremely mushy stuff.  But good is good and shite is shite.

[Rovim]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

I like Better, i think the guitar work on it is lovely, i think TWAT is good (demo sounded better), i think Madagascar is a wonderfully syurupy self-righteous fuckin' song, it's brilliant.  Chinese Democracy was alright to begin with but it's pretty shit really, TIL is shit, Shacklers is shit, If the World sounds like a half idea, Shacklers is just uninspired, Prostitute is dull, Street of Dreams suffers from being a good song terribly over-produced, Catcher in the Rye is boring though it has an interesting melody, Sorry is just pants, Rhiad too, IRS is good.

I like lots of ballads, doo wop stuff, Kathy Young, extremely mushy stuff.  But good is good and shite is shite.

So you like or kinda don't think 5 tunes are shitty. Axl said people might not think it's Guns N' Roses, but they'll like at least a few tunes. It's a varied album. I don't think these tunes were supposed to be on just 1 record. There are different groups of songs in there which are very different from one another. No one does this shit or it's very rare that you see a tune like Shackler's and This I Love on the same record.

Yeah.. Axl tinkered the fuck out of it. There are 5 guitar players and 5 orchestras on some tunes. There was no one to tell Axl to stop. No Slash or Duff to reel it in. He kept changing it and adding layers.

But to me he just made it more interesting. Like I don't think the tunes lost the core idea which was strong for the most part. I don't think Better lost it's mojo for example. I don't think Bumble ruined anything.

Catcher is the best example of what you're saying though: I feel it did lose some of the magic cause Axl fucked with it but even the Bumblefucked version is something I go back to very often.

And "the tinkering only made it worse" thing is a myth. There Was A Time sounded like ass without the final Bucket solo. I.R.S was weak pre tinkering. So it wasn't all the best versions and then Axl came along and ruined what was supposed to be a good album. Some of the tracks were improved thanks to other people that knew what to do with them like Bucket.

But I understand your position.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, Rovim said:

So you like or kinda don't think 5 tunes are shitty. Axl said people might not think it's Guns N' Roses, but they'll like at least a few tunes. It's a varied album. I don't think these tunes were supposed to be on just 1 record. There are different groups of songs in there which are very different from one another. No one does this shit or it's very rare that you see a tune like Shackler's and This I Love on the same record.

Yeah.. Axl tinkered the fuck out of it. There are 5 guitar players and 5 orchestras on some tunes. There was no one to tell Axl to stop. No Slash or Duff to reel it in. He kept changing it and adding layers.

But to me he just made it more interesting. Like I don't think the tunes lost the core idea which was strong for the most part. I don't think Better lost it's mojo for example. I don't think Bumble ruined anything.

Catcher is the best example of what you're saying though: I feel it did lose some of the magic cause Axl fucked with it but even the Bumblefucked version is something I go back to very often.

And "the tinkering only made it worse" thing is a myth. There Was A Time sounded like ass without the final Bucket solo. I.R.S was weak pre tinkering. So it wasn't all the best versions and then Axl came along and ruined what was supposed to be a good album. Some of the tracks were improved thanks to other people that knew what to do with them like Bucket.

But I understand your position.

I don't think it is very varied, i think it's a typical rock album with some casio keyboard memory bank shit laid over the top of it, there's nothing structurally unique about it, nothing radical about the songs, they just sound like old Guns songs that were fed to a late 90s focus group who went 'this could do with sounding more Industrial' or 'a trip hop beat here might serve to draw in 'x' audience'.

[Rovim]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

I don't think it is very varied, i think it's a typical rock album with some casio keyboard memory bank shit laid over the top of it, there's nothing structurally unique about it, nothing radical about the songs, they just sound like old Guns songs that were fed to a late 90s focus group who went 'this could do with sounding more Industrial' or 'a trip hop beat here might serve to draw in 'x' audience'.

You don't think it is, but it is. Cause the tunes are very different from one another. You've got If The World, Shackler's, This I Love, Sorry, and Prostitute on the same record. Only some of the tunes are not that different from UYI, but some are very different which again makes it a varied record.

Listen to Appetite and UYI, then Chinese. (not telling you to actually do it) it sounds very different. Only tunes like Street Of Dreams, I.R.S, and This I Love sound the same really. Chinese Democracy sounds kinda similar in a way and perhaps a few others.

But tunes like Shackler's, Prostitute, and Sorry you won't find on an old Guns record. Or Better. So you're mistaken.

It's not a casio memory bank, it's Axl incorporating new influences, it's not just layers of make up, it's the dna of some of the tunes that is different.

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, Rovim said:

You don't think it is, but it is. Cause the tunes are very different from one another. You've got If The World, Shackler's, This I Love, Sorry, and Prostitute on the same record. Only some of the tunes are not that different from UYI, but some are very different which again makes it a varied record.

Listen to Appetite and UYI, then Chinese. (not telling you to actually do it) it sounds very different. Only tunes like Street Of Dreams, I.R.S, and This I Love sound the same really. Chinese Democracy sounds kinda similar in a way and perhaps a few others.

But tunes like Shackler's, Prostitute, and Sorry you won't find on an old Guns record. Or Better. So you're mistaken.

It's not a casio memory bank, it's Axl incorporating new influences, it's not just layers of make up, it's the dna of some of the tunes that is different.

It's just straight forward verse chorus verse stuff, with solos...saturated with guitars and in some instances some kind of fuckin' out of the way motif that sounds lazily slapped across it to make you go 'ooh, this sounds a little trip hop'.  It's uninspired at best and phoney at worst.  It's dilettante shit of the worst kind.  

Edited January 24, 2017 by Len Cnut

[Rovim]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

It's just straight forward verse chorus verse stuff, with solos...saturated with guitars and in some instances some kind of fuckin' out of the way motif that sounds lazily slapped across it to make you go 'ooh, this sounds a little trip hop'.  It's uninspired at best and phoney at worst.

If there is one thing you can't say about Chinese and not be brutally mistaken is that it's uninspired. Like I said, I think I understand why someone like you will have this opinion on this album and I'm not trying to be annoying. I just think there is no point in continuing this discussion. I have many other things to say but it's not going to change your limited opinion on it. It's only limited cause it's impossible for you to be into this kind of music. That's basically all there is to it.

[Len Cnut]

4 minutes ago, Rovim said:

If there is one thing you can't say about Chinese and not be brutally mistaken is that it's uninspired. Like I said, I think I understand why someone like you will have this opinion on this album and I'm not trying to be annoying. I just think there is no point in continuing this discussion. I have many other things to say but it's not going to change your limited opinion on it. It's only limited cause it's impossible for you to be into this kind of music. That's basically all there is to it.

I completely disagree, i think that's a convenient escape hatch to slip out of to avoid what is blindingly obvious about Chi Dem.  And i don't think you're incapable of understanding either, judging by what I know of your musical taste, I just think you desperately want it to be good because you like GnR, and i feel your pain, God knows i do, i went out and bought Chi Dem the day it came out and i listened to it a FUCKLOAD, i REALLY tried to glean something of value from it, I'm one of those people who will like a shitty sequel just based on the fondness of a character and wanting to see him again, i was REALLY pulling for Axl with this...but it's a fuckin' pig quite frankly and you can put a silk hat on a fuckin' pig but all it's gonna be is a pig with a silk hat on.  

But yeah, I agree that there's no point in continuing the discussion.

[wasted]

1 hour ago, Rovim said:

Not really. I think there were other tunes that were newer and maybe not completed yet and Tommy liked those better compared to some of the material that got released.

It could have even been a double cd and they just took the 14 they liked.

Or more likely Axl wanted to finish the second disc and release it as a 2-disc set and they just said no 1 disc is fine. 

[Rovim]

Just now, Len Cnut said:

I completely disagree, i think that's a convenient escape hatch to slip out of to avoid what is blindingly obvious about Chi Dem.  And i don't think you're incapable of understanding either, judging by what I know of your musical taste, I just think you desperately want it to be good because you like GnR, and i feel your pain, God knows i do, i went out and bought Chi Dem the day it came out and i listened to it a FUCKLOAD, i REALLY tried to glean something of value from it, I'm one of those people who will like a shitty sequel just based on the fondness of a character and wanting to see him again, i was REALLY pulling for Axl with this...but it's a fuckin' pig quite frankly and you can put a silk hat on a fuckin' pig but all it's gonna be is a pig with a silk hat on.  

But yeah, I agree that there's no point in continuing the discussion.

Do me a favor yeah? don't presume to know what I like or don't like or why. I'm not desperate to like anything. Just because I fuckin' love this album doesn't mean I only like it because I like Gn'R. That's bullshit.

It's not like I'm the only one who likes Chinese. I guess all these other people that like Chinese only like it cause it's Axl from Guns N' Roses. So silly. And I never conveniently escape discussions. I just had a feeling there was no point in continuing talking about this.

This is why I said in my previous post I have many other things to say. Like you saying for example how it's all verse/chorus/verse. It isn't. And there are many things you just don't see about this record.

[Len Cnut]

Quote

Do me a favor yeah? don't presume to know what I like or don't like or why. I'm not desperate to like anything. Just because I fuckin' love this album doesn't mean I only like it because I like Gn'R. That's bullshit.

I'm surprised such presumptions bother you, being as how during the course of this discussion you have, at numerous points, gone 'i think i understand why someone like you would have this opinion' or things of that sort.

 

Quote

 

This is why I said in my previous post I have many other things to say. Like you saying for example how it's all verse/chorus/verse. It isn't. And there are many things you just don't see about this record.

 

 

 Like this

But it is.  And it's you that's avoided being specific, not me, if you have an argument to make about the specifics then be my guest.

[Rovim]

12 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I'm surprised such presumptions bother you, being as how during the course of this discussion you have, at numerous points, gone 'i think i understand why someone like you would have this opinion' or things of that sort.

 

 Like this

But it is.  And it's you that's avoided being specific, not me, if you have an argument to make about the specifics then be my guest.

The difference is I was right, and you're kinda shit at guessing what I like and why. You obviously dislike the record which is fine, but saying I'm desperate to like it is nonesense. It's not at all like what I said about you in connection to Chinese. You might want to take another look at my previous posts.

And no it isn't. You want specific? take Better for example: that Bucket bridge with the metal like riff and how the tune comes back from that section, it changes a key just to incorporate that rocking Bucket part and with the help of Pitman's bubbles returns to it's original verse chord progression.

It's not just simple verse/chorus/verse shit, every tune got it's own structure, sometimes with no chorus at all. Every tune follows it's own path. You never feel like the next part wasn't supposed to be the next part even if you don't really see it coming. It feels right. Doesn't mean it has to have a complicated structure, but it's obvious to me every tune got a perfect song structure, the sections fit one another. Like in Catcher and Prostitute.

 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Rovim

[wasted]

CD has similar dynamics to old GNR, but then some 90s influences. I liked a lot of 90s rock, so there's no reason for me not to like CD really. I like some Korn but sometimes it's a bit nerdy, Shackler's is like the coolest Korn song I heard. Shackler's is like an Alt rock version of YCBM. 

[Len Cnut]

Quote

The difference is I was right, and you're kinda shit at guessing what I like and why. You obviously dislike the record which is fine, but saying I'm desperate to like it is nonesense. It's not at all like what I said about you in connection to Chinese. You might want to take another look at my previous posts.

You're getting awfully touchy about this, relax, right or wrong Axl ain't payin' for either of our dinners tonight.  It's precisely like what you said to me in connection with Chinese, I know cuz I felt it equally objectionable, just didn't think it was worth the argument, I'm not responsible for your presumptions.

Quote

And no it isn't. You want specific? take Better for example: that Bucket bridge with the metal like riff and how the tune comes back from that section, it changes a key just to incorporate that rocking Bucket part and with the help of Pitman's bubbles returns to it's original verse chord progression.

How is that in the least bit substantial?  How fuckin' mindblowingly unique and outside of the parameters of rock music is a fucking key change?  I could name you Ramones songs with a key change, it really ain't that fuckin' radical.

Quote

It's not just simple verse/chorus/verse shit, every tune got it's own stracture, sometimes with no chorus at all. Every tune follows it's own path. You never feel like the next part wasn't supposed to be the next part even if you don't really see it coming. It feels right. Doesn't mean it has to have a complicated structure, but it's obvious to me every tune got a perfect song structure, the sections fit one another. Like in Catcher and Prostitute.

Half of what your saying here is that the songs have a structure apparently.  As if my point was that this was like Sun Ra's private basement sessions.  And how many of those songs don't have a chorus?

Edited January 24, 2017 by Len Cnut

[Rovim]

9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

You're getting awfully touchy about this, relax, right or wrong Axl ain't payin' for either of our dinners tonight.  It's precisely like what you said to me in connection with Chinese, I know cuz I felt it equally objectionable, just didn't think it was worth the argument, I'm not responsible for your presumptions.

How is that in the least bit substantial?

Half of what your saying here is that the songs have a structure apparently.  As if my point was that this was like Sun Ra's private basement sessions.  And how many of those songs don't have a chorus?

Don't make it about me. You said some shit that was just incorrect. You said that I like Chinese, but not really. That I just want to like it cause I like Gn'R and you feel my pain. That is being douchey. Sorry I'm not relaxed enough for you.

Not just a bit. Very substantial: I gave you a great example, Better. It is not a /verse/chorus/verse tune. It has a weird breakdown, Catcher is not verse/chorus/verse either.

Many Chinese tunes don't have a chorus. Not really a chorus. Not a traditional Gn'R one. Not even repeated more than twice. Chinese, Street Of Dreams, Prostitute, and others.

Proper choruses are tunes like If The World, Shackler's, Sorry, etc.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Rovim

[Len Cnut]

Quote

Don't make it about me. You said some shit that was just incorrect. You said that I like it, but not really. That I just want to like it cause I like Gn'R and you feel my pain. That is being douchey. Sorry I'm not relaxed enough for you.

Listen, just cuz i didn't have a woman fit about it doesn't mean that you didn't do it or say it, i don't care and you did, thats the only difference.

Quote

Not just a bit. Very substantial: I gave you a great example, Better. It is not a /verse/chorus/verse tune. It has a weird breakdown, Catcher is not verse/chorus/verse either.

It's at this point that it begins to get childish, no a key change is not radical or substantial or outside the bounds of generic rock music, you can argue that all day long but it won't make you right.  And the other things you cite are periphery basically, I'll grant you that they are somewhat departures from the absolutely ridgid definition of a classic rock song structure but they are not something that any number of artists haven't done before and you don't hear them being sung up as come kind of unique quality or massive departure from typical structure.  There are songs on Nevermind the Bollocks that don't have a chorus either, a song anyway, thats an album that I would consider, broadly speaking, to be quite common in terms of structure.  None of this constitutes a departure from classic rock.  These are just basic rock songs that someone who apparently writes as a rock performer and then goes 'hmm, what can i do with these to make em 'different'?  That kind of charlatanism (and it only becomes charlatanism when fans like you try to make something of it that it isn't, cuz Axl ain't pushed that shit) always shows through because you find yourself in discussions like these with people arguing over insubstantial minutia and generally having a hard time conveying what is revolutionary about the piece in question becaaaaaaause, our survey says, there ain't nothin'.

Quote

Many Chinese tunes don't have a chorus. Not really a chorus. Not a traditional Gn'R one. Not even repeated more than twice. Chinese, Street Of Dreams, Prostitute, and others.

not a chorus...not REALLY a chorus...not a traditional GnR chorus', you've wonderfully illustrated the point i was trying to make in my last paragraph   In short, they are basically choruses and you're trying to accentuate minutia to make a bigger thing of something that basically amounts to 'it's got a chorus with a mildly different melodic quality', which comes firmly under the banner of 'insubstantial'.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Len Cnut

[maynard]

Chinese Democracy - pointless ambient intro, verse, chorus, nu metal guitars, Ron pointless guitar fills, outro with 40 layers of voices. Shit. Rio 3 version was cool.

Shackler's - awful intro, stupid lyrics, chorus is kinda cool, not so bad... wait, wha... is this a guitar solo? why did Axl put random noise produced by a guitar on this song? Awful awful way to say "look I don't need Slash, I have Bumblefoot". Verse/Chorus/Verse/Chorus/Solo OMG AXL INVENTED NEW MUSIC MY GOD THE STRUCTURE

Better - good song, Axl's voice is perfect, Robin is a great musician. STRUCTURE HERE IS OUT OF THIS WORLD SHITS ON PROG ROCK

Street of Dreams - This song was perfect in 2001, Axl kept making this song worse and worse. I'll stick to Rio 3 version. MY GOSH THIS STRUCTURE IS LIKE NO OTHER

If The World - one of the worst vocal performances in history of rock music, Axl's voice is so annoying it makes your ears bleed. Song is a shitty mess. Not even BH solo can save it. This song makes me laugh every time. And no, it's not because Slash isn't on it. THE STRUCTURE HERE IS SOLO/CHORUS/VERSE/VERSE/BLIPS AND FARTS/AWESOMENESS AXL GENIUS

There Was a Time - again, the guitar solo is the only good thing about this. The hip hop beats are a pathetic attempt to appeal to kids, and they sound dated as fuck. What's with the pointless intros by the way? Bad song overrated as hell by Axl nutters. Axl's voice is terrible during 90% of the song, his clean voice sounds really bad. STRUCTURE SHITS ON ANY OTHER GNR SONG HERE

Catcher in the Rye - Song is not bad. Axl's voice is terrible and why the fuck replace guitar legend Brian May and his cute lil solo with KING OF NO STRUCTURED SOLOS RON B F THAL? FUCK YOU AXL.

Scraped - lol.

Riad - NO OTHER BAND IN ROCK HISTORY USED THIS EGYPTIAN STYLED STRUCTURE AND RIFFAGE AXL IS A MASTER AXL LIIIINDDOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! POINTLESS STOLEN AMBIENT INTRO COME TO BRAZIL. Seriously, bad vocal delivery from Axl and a very uninteresting song. And you come to realize Axl was not very inspired when doing this record.

Madagascar - Rio 3 version again shits all over this final version. I really like that version and BH solo is truly amazing. Another case of great song turned bad.

This I Love - lol.

Prostitute - Axl helium voice makes thins song unlistenable. Song structure is simple like all the rest of the album, close to zero complexity here. Only a few kids leave impressed. I can recommend around 100 albums that do right what CD attempted to do. OMG STRUCUTRE!!!!!

 

[Silent Jay]

@maynard That means you like Sorry - I.R.S. ?