GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[BorderlineCrazy]

43 minutes ago, SerenityScorp said:

Now You know  You have to learn, Gurl~ From Chairman,  Dgnr N' Me  Be natural 

Somehow this is like He tells Us tht He got crush N' its the Rose *You know which Rose

Actually it looks like Rose Dorn is Meegan's youngest daugher's band which is kinda cool. I wonder if GNR (or Axl) inspired the name.

@solstar I had never heard that story of Cerati and Axl, that's great! I know they've met other times too and hang out together but this one I had never heard it.

[Blackstar]

I started writing this post hoping that there wouldn't be 20 more replies related to the subject to catch up before I finished it . In the meantime the thread took another turn and and the very interesting discussion on why Axl is criticized for his looks (and for his public image in general, I’d add) stopped .

Anyway, my two cents on the subject:

In my opinion the criticism is due to a combination of interrelated reasons, one of them being the “gender factor” brought up by @sanity_lost. I think her post was very much on point. It’s true that Axl is objectified in a way usually women are.  @Frey  and @Lumikki made also some great points about why it’s happening.

@killuridols is not wrong in that Axl had a macho male following (although that was about GnR as a whole, since it was a hard rock band and this genre has been traditionally macho, plus the lyrics etc), but, as I was there too in the late 80s-early 90s and I remember, when Axl changed his looks and some other things in the band (mainly the introduction of the piano) during the Illusions era, a part of the male fanbase was somehow “confused” and/or alienated. GnR may have continued to be featured in genre music magazines and Axl may have not been considered a gay icon like Prince, but there was a vibe among hard rock fans that GnR had become a soft band for girls; I remember someone from Metallica (Hetfield probably) bragging that they had won over the male crowd during the tour with GnR and saying mockingly that there were a lot of girls at the shows for GnR. We can see it in this forum too; there have been quite a few posts by male members saying that Axl’s outfits (especially the shorts) were “embarrassing” for a rock ‘n’ roll band – one even said that Axl’s piano songs are “sissy”.

In regards to how Axl has been perceived by the general public: I agree with @Frey that there are many people calling him a “fag” etc. and I too have noticed what @Lumikki said about AC/DC fans. And this is not about Axl’s current image; I’ve seen comments under videos from old performances on youtube, and gifs of Axl dancing in his shorts posted in the AC/DC forum to point out that he doesn’t fit and he’s a “disgrace” for a band like AC/DC and also to compare him to the “masculine” Brian Johnson.  As for Axl’s behaviors (the aggressiveness, the tantrums), I think that they were mostly seen as acts of a spoiled rockstar/Hollywood diva regardless of sex/gender.

----

Another reason, that doesn’t have much to do with the gender factor and it has to do with the sort of criticism towards Axl as a public figure in general and not just his appearance, is that, in my opinion, Axl is sort of dehumanized by the fans and the general public. It’s a thing that people tend to do with some celebrities and think they can say what they want about them, judge their life, their looks etc with no limits. It’s something I’ve noticed in all the public talk about him. Sometimes it feels like even us here are “analyzing” him like we’d do if he was a fictional character in a novel, a movie or a TV series, not a real life human being. Although Axl was direct and open about his feelings, he’s had this rockstar persona which, combined with his adventurous life, the mystery around him when he disappeared from the public eye, and of course his beauty, caused him to be subconsciously perceived as a kind of mythical figure that is not “allowed” to grow old, gain weight and change in general.

I don’t know if I’m making any sense with all this, but I’ve been thinking it also in comparison to the Izzy thread:  how respectful the ladies and the guys there are to Izzy and how concerned they are not to cross the line by posting anything inappropriate that might be upsetting to him. It could be argued that Izzy has earned the respect by keeping his life private and with his general behavior (whereas Axl in the past had put a big part of his personal life in display). But then, we have the recent example of Steven, for whom I think it can rightfully be said that he has made his bed at least as much as Axl has made his in this regard (he went in a fucking reality rehab show): people here reacted when the brain damage speculation was brought up as it was seen as disrespectful and diminishing to Steven as a human being, while it’s considered okay to say anything about Axl, his mental health, his looks etc.

And another thing is, I think, that the relationship between Axl and a part of his fans is an unhealthy one – I guess like many of Axl’s relationships, but, in this case, it’s on both his and the fans’ part. Fandom in general may have some very fucked up aspects, like idolization/idealization, a sense of “ownership”, projection of one’s wishes/fantasies to their idols, etc. I’d say that some of Axl’s personality traits are reflected to the fans. Axl, perceived as a larger-than-life rockstar with all the “package” (including his looks) that his public persona consisted of (as @solstar described it), had a lot of power over the crowds and the fans (I remember a fan from the St. Louis riot show saying it). At first he liked it, then he saw it as a war between him and the fans. The fans were attracted by this persona, but in its ideal form; they saw in Axl what they wanted to be: a combination of beauty, uncompromising spirit, great performance ability and musical genius for some... and they expected him to be and behave according to this ideal image, like they owned him: “you are what you are because of us and you’ll be what we expect you to”; that Stump guy from St. Louis was a characteristic example: after the trial he asked Axl for his autograph, Axl told him “are you crazy?” and he said “I’m a fan, I put you up there and I’m entitled to it”. They wanted him to be wild, but in their own terms and not towards them (their “hero” can’t stop shows for things being thrown at him, he should stay there and take it). And when Axl disappointed them, they started devaluating him and “throwing stones” at him. And this love/hate thing continues to this day.

-----------

EDIT: I hope that other members contribute to this discussion. I'm sure they have interesting things to say.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Blackstar

[solstar]

24 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

 

@solstar I had never heard that story of Cerati and Axl, that's great! I know they've met other times too and hang out together but this one I had never heard it.

Yes! I love that story! Now I didn't know that they'd met other times as well, or that they hung out together. When? Where? I'm really curious now

I guess Gustavo finally had a chance to tell Axl about the shopping mall incident then  

[killuridols]

1 hour ago, solstar said:

lol, no! Yours could be a suitable explanation as well, but Cerati never said that Axl was there because he was hiding from a fan, he only said that he was escaping from a fan when he saw him, but not that that was the reason why he had entered the mall in the first place. I guess I can read that Axl was shopping there because that's what people usually do in these places. Also, the guys in the interview and even Cerati himself were confused as well and joked that he was probably buying clothes for his own mom or for himself. So I reckon they made the same inference too. 

I guess I find it harder to read that he had entered that place with the sole purpose of hiding from this one fan, because I cannot think of a reasonable context for that to have taken place. I mean, where else could have he been when he saw the fan to begin with?  

Well, I can think of an scenario where Axl was walking in the street or anywhere for that matter, and a fan recognized him and he didn't want to engage in that or probably he thought that if one person makes a huge deal out of it, immediately a lot of people would have been drawn to him, hence his urge to escape from that and enter any place as some kind of protection, where loads of people wouldn't have been allowed.

Haven't you never entered a shop when you thought someone was following you? 

I have done that, specially after taking money out of a ATM, as you know how dangerous those things are here 

And I wouldn't take seriously what the other guys are saying while Cerati is telling the story because 1) they are usually silly people who laugh at anything, some sort of Beavis and Butthead always relating everything to sex and dirty things and 2) because they were trying to add some spice to the story and that's the way they behave with all of the interviewees. They act like macho men all the time so I have no doubts those jokes are also related to what we've been talking about in these last pages 

----

Omg @Blackstar, that is a great lengthy post I'd love to reply to but it's already so late here and I'm about to hope in bed. Why did you have to come just now? lol 

I will try to reply to it tomorrow but I'll probably come back late and miss out a lot 

[solstar]

50 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Well, I can think of an scenario where Axl was walking in the street or anywhere for that matter, and a fan recognized him and he didn't want to engage in that or probably he thought that if one person makes a huge deal out of it, immediately a lot of people would have been drawn to him, hence his urge to escape from that and enter any place as some kind of protection, where loads of people wouldn't have been allowed.

Haven't you never entered a shop when you thought someone was following you? 

I have done that, specially after taking money out of a ATM, as you know how dangerous those things are here 

And I wouldn't take seriously what the other guys are saying while Cerati is telling the story because 1) they are usually silly people who laugh at anything, some sort of Beavis and Butthead always relating everything to sex and dirty things and 2) because they were trying to add some spice to the story and that's the way they behave with all of the interviewees. They act like macho men all the time so I have no doubts those jokes are also related to what we've been talking about in these last pages 

lol I guess I could enter a shop to look for protection if I thought someone could rob me or something like that, but I don't think that could apply here, because first, Axl was escaping from a fan, not a thief or a crowd of fans, and second, the people in the mall (Cerati did say he was in a mall, not a shop, btw) would not have been able to offer him any protection from this person either, since all she wanted was his autograph. Also, malls are usually crowded places, so they are not the best place to hide from people either (especially in an old ladies one where Axl would def stand out from the regular crowd ), and they are usually surrounded by a large parking place, so can you imagine Axl running through it to hide from this one fan? 

I guess I find it also hard to believe that Axl was just walking there in the street, as it would have been a bit out of character. And it was not only the interviewing guys who assumed Axl was there shopping, but Cerati himself. He did say that at the end of the anecdote, so I reckon he must have had some other reasons that he did not explicitly mention in order to assume that, being the one person who witnessed the whole situation.

So, unless you confess you were the crazy fan with the little notebook youself, I'm sticking with my inference

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by solstar

[killuridols]

37 minutes ago, solstar said:

lol I guess I could enter a shop to look for protection if I thought someone could rob me or something like that, but I don't think that could apply here, because first, Axl was escaping from a fan, not a thief or a crowd of fans, and second, the people in the mall (Cerati did say he was in a mall, not a shop, btw) would not have been able to offer him any protection from this person either, since all she wanted was his autograph. Also, malls are usually crowded places, so they are not the best place to hide from people either (especially in an old ladies one where Axl would def stand out from the regular crowd ), and they are usually surrounded by a large parking place, so can you imagine Axl running through it to hide from this one fan? 

I guess I find it also hard to believe that Axl was just walking there in the street, as it would have been a bit out of character. And it was not only the interviewing guys who assumed Axl was there shopping, but Cerati himself. He did say that at the end of the anecdote, so I reckon he must have had some other reasons that he did not explicitly mention in order to assume that, being the one person who witnessed the whole situation.

So, unless you confess you were the crazy fan with the little notebook youself, I'm sticking with my inference

 

I have listened to it again and I'm sorry but Cerati never said this happened in a shopping mall. His exact words are "un shopping para señoras", which I think it is just some mistake he made when he actually meant a clothing store for old ladies, because I don't think there is a "shopping mall" that is exclusive for ladies. They are for everybody who wants to go in.

The fact that he used Cerati as a shield to hide from the fans proves that Axl was indeed looking for some kind of protection and/or trying to confuse the fan, since Cerati also mentions that as soon as the fan passed by, Axl ran away with his bodyguard.

If he had been shopping there, like you assume, I don't think he would be walking among the clothes, hiding behind other customers and much less leaving the place without paying.

Cerati didn't assume either that Axl was shopping. He said he found it odd that Axl was there and then he jokingly adds that he may have been buying a dress for his mom but it was just to add up to what the other guys were saying, like one of them first assuming Axl would be there buying clothes for some of his women and the other guy, jokingly/mockingly implying it was for himself 

The way Cerati tells this story sounds to me like a funny anecdote he just remembered because of its oddness and because it was a quick thing he could barely react to. But he never implied there was more to it than he knew 

[Tainted1]

Great conversation everyone I agree with a lot of points that was made in this thread (and sideyeing Sheila Kennedy's "plump" friend not being able to tag along ?how shallow but anyway...I digress..) I do have an off topic question does anyone who this lady is and what's the story is behind this pic, I've googled like hell and,...nothing lol TIA 

[BorderlineCrazy]

1 hour ago, solstar said:

Yes! I love that story! Now I didn't know that they'd met other times as well, or that they hung out together. When? Where? I'm really curious now

I guess Gustavo finally had a chance to tell Axl about the shopping mall incident then  

From what I remember, it was at the bar in the Faena Hotel that they spent a good amount of time talking. I'm pretty sure it was a journalist from here (one of the good ones) who witnessed it and told the story.

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

@killuridols is not wrong in that Axl had a macho male following (although that was about GnR as a whole, since it was a hard rock band and this genre has been traditionally macho, plus the lyrics etc), but, as I was there too in the late 80s-early 90s and I remember, when Axl changed his looks and some other things in the band (mainly the introduction of the piano) during the Illusions era, a part of the male fanbase was somehow “confused” and/or alienated. GnR may have continued to be featured in genre music magazines and Axl may have not been considered a gay icon like Prince, but there was a vibe among hard rock fans that GnR had become a soft band for girls; I remember someone from Metallica (Hetfield probably) bragging that they had won over the male crowd during the tour with GnR and saying mockingly that there were a lot of girls at the shows for GnR. We can see it in this forum too; there have been quite a few posts by male members saying that Axl’s outfits (especially the shorts) were “embarrassing” for a rock ‘n’ roll band – one even said that Axl’s piano songs are “sissy”.

Well, I didn't get to live the 90's to have a bigger knowledge about GNR's fanbase back then. As far as I know (at least here in Argentina), there were rockers who loved GNR but a lot of people kind of rejected the band because GNR was for teenage girls what Justin Bieber or One Direction are now, so they thought it wasn't cool to be a GNR fan. Again, my perception could be wrong as I was 4 and 5 when GNR came in 92 and 93, I'm basing this on older fans I know and documentaries and shit like that that I've seen about those shows.

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

In regards to how Axl has been perceived by the general public: I agree with @Frey that there are many people calling him a “fag” etc. and I too have noticed what @Lumikki said about AC/DC fans. And this is not about Axl’s current image; I’ve seen comments under videos from old performances on youtube, and gifs of Axl dancing in his shorts posted in the AC/DC forum to point out that he doesn’t fit and he’s a “disgrace” for a band like AC/DC and also to compare him to the “masculine” Brian Johnson.  As for Axl’s behaviors (the aggressiveness, the tantrums), I think that they were mostly seen as acts of a spoiled rockstar/Hollywood diva regardless of sex/gender.

IMO, many people just dislike Axl for whatever reason so they don't take him seriously and enjoy bashing him. You can see someone calling him a hooray for tolerance! and the next person calling him homophobic. Their opinions seem to be based on glimpses they've seen such as Axl wearing a skirt, some rant, comments on the media about One In A Million or about the kind of person Axl is (according to them), what they "know" about GNR's breakup... Axl seems to be judged a lot by people who don't give a shit about him and don't even try to know him, unlike other musicians. Slash is just seen as a cool guitar player by non fans or, worst case scenario, there's the delusional people who claim he's overrated (WHAT!? ) but people don't seem to care about what kind of person he is unless they're fans of him or GNR.

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I don’t know if I’m making any sense with all this, but I’ve been thinking it also in comparison to the Izzy thread:  how respectful the ladies and the guys there are to Izzy and how concerned they are not to cross the line by posting anything inappropriate that might be upsetting to him. It could be argued that Izzy has earned the respect by keeping his life private and with his general behavior (whereas Axl in the past had put a big part of his personal life in display). But then, we have the recent example of Steven, for whom I think it can rightfully be said that he has made his bed at least as much as Axl has made his in this regard (he went in a fucking reality rehab show): people here reacted when the brain damage speculation was brought up as it was seen as disrespectful and diminishing to Steven as a human being, while it’s considered okay to say anything about Axl, his mental health, his looks etc.

The Izzy gang is the best, they can do no wrong! 

But if you look, that's a pretty small circle, there's not a lot of people. I think Axl has a way bigger amount of "huge fans" and that means there are many different kinds of fans. You can see people here who could never even consider the possiblity of saying some negative about Axl and would defend him in ANY situation and then there's also people like @killuridols who may love/admire Axl deeply (and may be desperate to taste his ass ) but has absolutely no problem pointing all the things she considers wrong. Also, it's true that Axl and Izzy are very different, Izzy's a laidback guy who's been out of the spotlight forever while Axl has an immense amount of subjects to discuss about (tardiness, riots, polemic lyrics, relationship with TB, lack of new music...).

What you say about Steven, I think @killuridols was the only one who got mad at the brain damage thing and I believe it was because she saw it as far-fetched nonsense made up to make Axl or "the big three" look good. Personally (and I'm probably seen as an annoying Steven supporter on this forum), I thought it was an interesting perspective and found sooome logic to it, although I don't believe Steven has brain damage (or not to that extent at the very least) to be honest.

2 hours ago, Blackstar said:

And another thing is, I think, that the relationship between Axl and a part of his fans is an unhealthy one – I guess like many of Axl’s relationships, but, in this case, it’s on both his and the fans’ part. Fandom in general may have some very fucked up aspects, like idolization/idealization, a sense of “ownership”, projection of one’s wishes/fantasies to their idols, etc. I’d say that some of Axl’s personality traits are reflected to the fans. Axl, perceived as a larger-than-life rockstar with all the “package” (including his looks) that his public persona consisted of (as @solstar described it), had a lot of power over the crowds and the fans (I remember a fan from the St. Louis riot show saying it). At first he liked it, then he saw it as a war between him and the fans. The fans were attracted by this persona, but in its ideal form; they saw in Axl what they wanted to be: a combination of beauty, uncompromising spirit, great performance ability and musical genius for some... and they expected him to be and behave according to this ideal image, like they owned him: “you are what you are because of us and you’ll be what we expect you to”; that Stump guy from St. Louis was a characteristic example: after the trial he asked Axl for his autograph, Axl told him “are you crazy?” and he said “I’m a fan, I put you up there and I’m entitled to it”. They wanted him to be wild, but in their own terms and not towards them (their “hero” can’t stop shows for things being thrown at him, he should stay there and take it). And when Axl disappointed them, they started devaluating him and “throwing stones” at him. And this love/hate thing continues to this day.

Well, from what I've seen, some of Axl's biggest haters are huge fans of him who at some point got really disappointed, lost hope and felt let down by him. I think that's mostly fans' fault. When you see some person as the most perfect thing in the universe, you're setting yourself up for disappointment, no one can live to such absurd expectations. Loving someone means embracing who they are, accepting the good and the bad. Otherwise, you just love something that simply doesn't exist and once the bubble burst and you see the imperfections, you end up hating and blaming the other for not being something he never was. It's unfair and fucked up.

Also, thinking musicians owe you an autograph because you buy their records or go to their shows is the stupidest thing in the world. You don't do those things as a favor to the artists, you go to the shows because you love the band and think you're going to have a great time. There can be exceptions (like supporting a local band) but most of the times, people go to shows for selfish reasons, not as a charity action towards the band.

 

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, Tainted1 said:

Great conversation everyone I agree with a lot of points that was made in this thread (and sideyeing Sheila Kennedy's "plump" friend not being able to tag along ?how shallow but anyway...I digress..) I do have an off topic question does anyone who this lady is and what's the story is behind this pic, I've googled like hell and,...nothing lol TIA 

Hi there and welcome! 

I've always wanted to know this as well but never found any information on it either. We can only speculate based on some CSI some of us could perform by using data from the picture 

I always thought of it as some sort of "awards" show entrance Axl did but then I think that he never attended those kind of shows, so I might be severely wrong.

She looks to me like someone who may be an 80's celebrity but I'm not much familiar with who could that be and telling by Axl's putrid teeth  this is probably from before 1990, so that's all I can make out of it, so far.

12 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

From what I remember, it was at the bar in the Faena Hotel that they spent a good amount of time talking. I'm pretty sure it was a journalist from here (one of the good ones) who witnessed it and told the story.

Oh and what year was this, do you know or remember?

Because I don't know when the Faena hotel opened and then I think about Cerati having his ACV in 2010 and that being the first year Axl with his nuGNR returned to Argentina after what... 1993? So how was this encounter possible? I'm not sure...

18 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Well, I didn't get to live the 90's to have a bigger knowledge about GNR's fanbase back then. As far as I know (at least here in Argentina), there were rockers who loved GNR but a lot of people kind of rejected the band because GNR was for teenage girls what Justin Bieber or One Direction are now, so they thought it wasn't cool to be a GNR fan. Again, my perception could be wrong as I was 4 and 5 when GNR came in 92 and 93, I'm basing this on older fans I know and documentaries and shit like that that I've seen about those shows.

Hmm... no, I don't think anyone here considered them to be like Justin Bieber or One Direction are now 

Yes, they had lots of female fans but it was still labeled as a "dangerous" band of wild guys who incited the youth to take drugs, drink alcohol and behave like animals, lol.... The headlines of newspapers and magazines were all catastrophic before their first arrival to this country.

It doesn't look to me like the number of female fans of them in the 90s outnumbered the male fanbase. Maybe it was not as strictly macho men fans like Metallica or Megadeth or ACDC, it was more balanced, but your average girl wouldn't be a fan of GNR, in spite of Don't Cry or November Rain, their music was not Bon Jovi or Poison. Going to a GNR show being a girl and expecting them to play only ballads I guess it was an unrealistic expectation not many had back then.

Being a girl and liking GNR was like being a pariah, an outcast weird female, probably lesbian or drug addict with lots of "issues". At least that's how they perceived me and the other few girls who liked them 

33 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

But if you look, that's a pretty small circle, there's not a lot of people. I think Axl has a way bigger amount of "huge fans" and that means there are many different kinds of fans. You can see people here who could never even consider the possiblity of saying some negative about Axl and would defend him in ANY situation and then there's also people like @killuridols who may love/admire Axl deeply (and may be desperate to taste his ass ) but has absolutely no problem pointing all the things she considers wrong. Also, it's true that Axl and Izzy are very different, Izzy's a laidback guy who's been out of the spotlight forever while Axl has an immense amount of subjects to discuss about (tardiness, riots, polemic lyrics, relationship with TB, lack of new music...).

What you say about Steven, I think @killuridols was the only one who got mad at the brain damage thing and I believe it was because she saw it as far-fetched nonsense made up to make Axl or "the big three" look good. Personally (and I'm probably seen as an annoying Steven supporter on this forum), I thought it was an interesting perspective and found sooome logic to it, although I don't believe Steven has brain damage (or not to that extent at the very least) to be honest.

Omg this made me lol'd so hard 

Thank you for exposing your particular observations of my persona, lol, I love how creatively you worded it out 

[BorderlineCrazy]

27 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Oh and what year was this, do you know or remember?

Because I don't know when the Faena hotel opened and then I think about Cerati having his ACV in 2010 and that being the first year Axl with his nuGNR returned to Argentina after what... 1993? So how was this encounter possible? I'm not sure...

I've been trying to find it again but all I could get is this tweet

I think he had told the story when he used to be on the radio a few years ago. Wish I could find the details 

30 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Hmm... no, I don't think anyone here considered them to be like Justin Bieber or One Direction are now 

Yes, they had lots of female fans but it was still labeled as a "dangerous" band of wild guys who incited the youth to take drugs, drink alcohol and behave like animals, lol.... The headlines of newspapers and magazines were all catastrophic before their first arrival to this country.

It doesn't look to me like the number of female fans of them in the 90s outnumbered the male fanbase. Maybe it was not as strictly macho men fans like Metallica or Megadeth or ACDC, it was more balanced, but your average girl wouldn't be a fan of GNR, in spite of Don't Cry or November Rain, their music was not Bon Jovi or Poison. Going to a GNR show being a girl and expecting them to play only ballads I guess it was an unrealistic expectation not many had back then.

Being a girl and liking GNR was like being a pariah, an outcast weird female, probably lesbian or drug addict with lots of "issues". At least that's how they perceived me and the other few girls who liked them 

No, what I meant is they were the band that would have a massive group of teenagers screaming at their hotel and stuff like that, as it happens with Bieber now. Still, reading what you're saying, it looks like the situation was extremely different overall.

It's cool the image people would have of you for liking Guns N' Roses, you lesbian junkie 

33 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Omg this made me lol'd so hard 

Thank you for exposing your particular observations of my persona, lol, I love how creatively you worded it out 

Haha and I failed to mention how much I admire your ability to make new friends in here everyday 

[Tori72]

Great discussion guys, thanks! I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. After writing a post yesterday morning about the gender related questions why Axl is sexually objectified my post got sucked up to nirvana.

Now the discussion moved on to something I was always wondering about: the dehumanziation of your idol in general and specifically Axl.

As @Blackstar pointed out so spot on, with Axl it is a peculiar mixture of sexual objectifivation and that fan-driven dehumanization of an idol. To me there is a special peculiar mixture of perception going on that I have not seen with any other male celebrity, even though a lot of celbrities have to deal with dehumazation of media and fans at times. The dehumaziation / idolization of Axl is a big issue I think, because yes, also this thread does it. Why and how is another topic (mixture of sincere concern, fantasies, lusting and filling the gaps  thathis reclusivess and unproductivity left.?) 

I lived in the late 80ies 90ies as a teenager and can totally relate to the thing @killuridols said. GnR was a macho band and always had a male and macho fan base (I'm living in Europe). Being a girl who liked GnR was not at all about being a ballad kind of November Rain girl. I loved AfD and among my circle of friends I was regarded as the weird chick who loves Hardrock and rocker guys. I am kinda glad my friends loved me anyway because I was literally the only one.  (I don't know why I never got to know other female GnR and rock n roll fans, because there were a few back then. But anyways.) GnR was far away from anything similar to Justin Bieber or whatever those heartthrobs are called today.

Axl also was never the classic heartthrob material, so to speak. He was not Brad Pitt or Jonny Depp or Jon Bon Jovi. His personality was far to complex and not at all easy going. He was a badass and arsehole and also the little girls knew it. 

From where I lived in the early 90ies, suddenly a lot of the "cool guys" who never liked Metallica or GnR or any other Hardrock before, started listening to Nirvana and Red Hot Chili Peppers, for example. But not GnR. Wether it was before UYI or after I don't recall but I remember this one discussion about music on a party. Where I was "Why do you like bands like Nirvana all of a sudden when you have never been interested in anything Hardrock or Rock n Roll like AC/DC or GnR before?" And they go: AC/DC is old men rock, GnR is uncool because Axl is a complicated diva, insane and what have you and Nirvana was just cool and musically talented. (And I am sure they never were interested to get to know Axl's personality better. They just had this opinion about this one celebrety and that's it.)

It always is a question of taste, sure. But to me there was was a culture gap between the upcoming grunge and GnR. (always liked both.) This is why I tend to think that GnR was indeed the last real rock n roll band with its rock n roll heroes types.

By the way, I always found Axl's "Kill your idols" shirt spot on. Next to the rock n roll martyr Jesus thing Axl had going on at the time, it felt to me as if he understood what idolization and dehumanization of him was going on. He once said that he has to get into his larger than life persona before he can go on stage which is why it could take him so long. He also said in another rant that nobody should tell you what to do with your life, not even him. I don't think it was Axl's intention to become this larger than life persona off stage. He wanted to be this great performer onstage, though. 

Unlike the other guys in the band, even unlike Slash, Axl was/is this sparkling character of soft and hard, of macho and sensitivity, of hurt and violence, of piano based soulful ballads (without being corny Bon Jovi) and this tantrum throughing, riot enhancing tough guy. So all these contradictions in Axl's personality were hyped by the media and this is what people knew of him who were not really interested. His interview in the Rolling Stone, for example, about his abuse in his childhood was only superficially coverd by the teen yellow press here. Nobody never understood what really went on and the info "he got beaten a lot and probably even raped as a child" just added to his sparkling celebrity thing. Sick as it is. I don't recall any article or discussion with people where this aspect of his life and personality got discussed seriously. I was shocked when I learned it but didn't know where to get any more information about it as I didn't know the scource back then.

Plus all that, Axl had these looks. His utter beauty that was androgynous and feminine and still so male and macho. I think it is the mixture of all those persona traits, his looks, peoples and media's desinterest to go any further of what would be to know of him that  drove his fans - or some of them - to dehumanize him, to idolize him into some fantasy.

Another celebrity I can think of that got idolized so much and showed some contradiction in his personality is Elvis. So when Elvis got fat and glamorous in Vegas, he got criticized as well but I am not sure if to such an extrend as Axl. I tend to think one reason is because Elvis still produced new music at that time or am I mistaken? As Axl is not, his aging has been scrutiniezd solely on nostalgia of what he once was. Other male idols like Jim Morrisson or Marlon Brando were both very handsome in younger years but turned fat when older. Both of them were still working and producing new music / films and thus could develop their youthful sex idol image into somethin else.

Like @BorderlineCrazy I believe a lot of haters are disappointed Axl fans who wanted their idol to be what they made of him, not taking this person for what he his.

Another thing that I think is important in this whole mixture is what @Frey pointed out: the gender issues. I go along with that. Axl being effeminate / feminine / androgynous and therefore recieves similar scrutiny as women. We live in a misogynist world. What happens to a lot of women (not only celebrities) on a daily basis now happens to a male celebrity whose looks are at least androgynous. Oh the irony of things, as Axl always hase been a rather misogynist person and now recieving the bitter end of a misogynist world himself.

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Tori72

[Tori72]

2 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

What you say about Steven, I think @killuridols was the only one who got mad at the brain damage thing and I believe it was because she saw it as far-fetched nonsense made up to make Axl or "the big three" look good. Personally (and I'm probably seen as an annoying Steven supporter on this forum), I thought it was an interesting perspective and found sooome logic to it, although I don't believe Steven has brain damage (or not to that extent at the very least) to be honest.

Sorry, just wanted to state that several posters, me included, did not agree in the brain-damage idea of Steven. I found it very far fetched and highly specualtive. This just as a footnote.

[tifalucis]

18 hours ago, SerenityScorp said:

Im just messin' with Ya 

You still lucky tho unlike Me N' @tifalucis 

wait what-?!

[tifalucis]

I have no comment on these, but I'll just keep watching 

Anyway, that'll explain why I feel so attracted to Axl 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

Funnily enough we now have a thread in D&N about whether Axl was a poser during UYI. The little shorts are being brought up by the guys quite a bit 

[Tori72]

24 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Funnily enough we now have a thread in D&N about whether Axl was a poser during UYI. The little shorts are being brought up by the guys quite a bit 

Yeah. I kinda like how upset the guys can get about those adorable litlle shorts. Good job, Axl 

[SerenityScorp]

2 hours ago, tifalucis said:

wait what-?!

She is lucky tht GN'R comes to Europe unlike Us,  They didnt visit indo even though it was so goddamn cloae from Singapore 

[SerenityScorp]

www.vogue.com/article/axl-rose-guns-n-roses-coachella-hair-timeline 

 

[tifalucis]

51 minutes ago, SerenityScorp said:

She is lucky tht GN'R comes to Europe unlike Us,  They didnt visit indo even though it was so goddamn cloae from Singapore 

oh, ok. Plz don't bring that up again. It's already too painful for me 

[SerenityScorp]

5 minutes ago, tifalucis said:

oh, ok. Plz don't bring that up again. It's already too painful for me 

Not only You

[solstar]

9 hours ago, killuridols said:

I have listened to it again and I'm sorry but Cerati never said this happened in a shopping mall. His exact words are "un shopping para señoras", which I think it is just some mistake he made when he actually meant a clothing store for old ladies, because I don't think there is a "shopping mall" that is exclusive for ladies. They are for everybody who wants to go in.

The fact that he used Cerati as a shield to hide from the fans proves that Axl was indeed looking for some kind of protection and/or trying to confuse the fan, since Cerati also mentions that as soon as the fan passed by, Axl ran away with his bodyguard.

If he had been shopping there, like you assume, I don't think he would be walking among the clothes, hiding behind other customers and much less leaving the place without paying.

Cerati didn't assume either that Axl was shopping. He said he found it odd that Axl was there and then he jokingly adds that he may have been buying a dress for his mom but it was just to add up to what the other guys were saying, like one of them first assuming Axl would be there buying clothes for some of his women and the other guy, jokingly/mockingly implying it was for himself 

The way Cerati tells this story sounds to me like a funny anecdote he just remembered because of its oddness and because it was a quick thing he could barely react to. But he never implied there was more to it than he knew 

Well, I agree Cerati sounded really confused about the whole incident, but it is also true that he couldn't provide a possible explanation other than that Axl was there to buy something for his own mom (those were his own words, regardless of whether you think he said that to tag along with what the other guys were saying), and also I think that the bolded are all assumptions you are making about what Cerati said (e.g. that he meant he was in a shop, when he did use the word shopping mall to describe the place where he was - the word "shopping" in Argentina means shopping mall, not shop) or that he was walking among clothes and left without paying (Cerati never said that in his narration)

It's ok though if you think that Axl was there just to escape from this fan, as Cerati only described the part of the incident that he saw, and obviously it is not the whole picture, but I still think it's more likely that Axl had possibly been there shopping when he bumped into this fan, than the whole other scenario that you pictured. And it's ok too. It's all good. All I know is that if I ever go to LA, I'll be going to all the old ladies malls just to see if I bump into our crazy redhead maybe trying to purchase some new rings

 

8 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

I've been trying to find it again but all I could get is this tweet

I think he had told the story when he used to be on the radio a few years ago. Wish I could find the details 

 

Thanks for the reference! Wow this is def intriguing! I wonder what type of interaction those two could possibly have had.

[SerenityScorp]

6 minutes ago, solstar said:

Well, I agree Cerati sounded really confused about the whole incident, but it is also true that he couldn't provide a possible explanation other than that Axl was there to buy something for his own mom (those were his own words, regardless of whether you think he said that to tag along with what the other guys were saying), and also I think that the bolded are all assumptions you are making about what Cerati said (e.g. that he meant he was in a shop, when he did use the word shopping mall to describe the place where he was - the word "shopping" in Argentina means shopping mall, not shop) or that he was walking among clothes and left without paying (Cerati never said that in his narration)

It's ok though if you think that Axl was there just to escape from this fan, as Cerati only described the part of the incident that he saw, and obviously it is not the whole picture, but I still think it's more likely that Axl had possibly been there shopping when he bumped into this fan, than the whole other scenario that you pictured. And it's ok too. It's all good. All I know is that if I ever go to LA, I'll be going to all the old ladies malls just to see if I bump into our crazy redhead maybe trying to purchase some new rings

 

Thanks for the reference! Wow this is def intriguing! I wonder what type of interaction those two could possibly have had.

Can You translate it? 

[solstar]

2 hours ago, SerenityScorp said:

Can You translate it? 

The tweet you mean?

It says "With this about Cerati and the 15/05, it always comes to mind the memory of "the last time I saw him". It was in the Faena Cabaret with @axlrose"

Edited March 13, 2017 by solstar

[Andy14]

@Blackstar Great post! I'd like to add something to the "how men react to Axl's look" topic, because I think it's an interesting phenomena. 

I have some friends among "motorbike gang" lol, and all those men seem to be obsessed with "looking and acting manly", which is not only reflected in the way they look but also in the music they listen. However, they judge musicians by their looks as well. Which means that the "real rock" is represented by bands such as Metallica, Iron Maiden or AC/DC. When you mention GNR, they react like "oh, come on, Axl looks like a fag" even though they admit their music is quite good. It seems like Axl's look comes first and his music second.

The same as you, @Blackstar or @Lumikki pointed out. The ACDC fans. I've read a lot of posts on their forum and they can't get over the fact how Axl looked back in the day. They think that the real hard rock can be represented only by men like Brian Johnson and his workman look, not by a girl like Axl. And when you add the fact he plays the piano....OMG what a disgrace...a guy playing the piano and looking androgynous in a macho band like ACDC? No way.

I've also come across some YT comments. Many of the comments written by men discussing Axl's look are negative. Be it that he looked too girly back in the day, the way he dressed, the fact "he was wearing a skirt" or comments about "the old fatso", "old cat lady". 

This all makes me think why is this so? Do or did those men feel violated by Axl's look. Do they feel that admitting they like Axl means admitting they like a guy with girly features which can question their sexuality and masculinity? Let me tell you my opinion. 25 years ago Axl was absolutely beautiful, with his facial features, hair, body....you can say you didn't like the way he looked, but you can't say he was ugly. Plus his stage performance and clothes. I feel that now when he's older and doesn't look the way he used to is somehow satisfying for a certain group of men. Now they can say "omg, look at how horrible he looks", and point out his flaws, like hair, gut and so. It may make them feel better about ourselves, that one the perfectly looking guy is aging and not looking perfect anymore. It's not a secret that when people talk about flaws of others they hide their own flaws (which may be the same). 

And the white shorts as @MillionsOfSpiders mentioned. Yes, the nightmare of many guys haha. It's true that when you watch Axl in those shorts with his genitals exposed right into your face, it must be very unpleasant for many guys. But from some of the comments I have the feeling that some of the men are only drama queens acting like they were watching a gay porn. 

Btw. What do @Frey and @BorderlineCrazy think of Axl in his tiny white shorts? 

[KiraMPD]

Hmm... I have a lot of conflicting thought about this and I'll try to put it together in a post later but for now...

Why are are we assuming that the negativity regarding Axl's looks is only coming form the male portion of the fandom? I have read plenty of posts and comments form supposedly female 'fans' that go on and on about how pretty he was back in the day and then making disparaging remarks about his current looks. Even back in 2006, sure some male fans made fun of the cornrows but most of the ridicule seemed to stem from the female fans iirc.

Now I would like to ask those that were around in the 80's/90's, do you think Axl's androgynous look was objectified back in the day more or less than it is now? Because what I have observed online in the past 15 years is that the objectification of the androgynous figure and association of feminine terms such as "pretty" to Axl is more of a recent development that seems to stem from the female fans.

I also think that unlike other rockstars that have aged not so gracefully, Axl was out of the public eye long periods and every time he came back his looks appear to drastically change which added a shock value to it. I believe this is the artifact of not allowing the public to see a gradually aging individual. It is the difference between seeing your parents age as you live with them and seeing a before and after picture. In this regard the only other Gn'R member that can be compared to Axl's situation is Izzy but I think that the reason that Izzy doesn't get as much shit is due to a few reasons: 1) Hate to say it but the general public of music listeners aren't really aware of Izzy as he wasn't the face of the band, 2) to the GnR fans Izzy will always be the "cool" guy that was above it all, and 3) Weight wise Izzy would not be classified as "fat" and I think it could be argued that there is a strong correlation between being overweight and the negative comments your receive.

 

These are my thoughts for now but I might post more on the subject later.

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by KiraMPD