GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[BorderlineCrazy]

1 hour ago, solstar said:

Thanks for the reference! Wow this is def intriguing! I wonder what type of interaction those two could possibly have had.

Yeah, it would have been great to be there just watching them talk. Maybe it was a musicians kind of conversation or maybe about fame... or about the hot girls that were probably there 

48 minutes ago, Andy14 said:

Btw. What do @Frey and @BorderlineCrazy think of Axl in his tiny white shorts? 

I think he looked delicious!  Haha just kidding but honestly it doesn't bother me at all. Maybe it's because I got used to seeing him (un)dressed like that as I've been obsessed with GNR videos for over a decade, or maybe it's because I've never felt confused, unconfortable and it never made me question my sexuality. Whatever the reason may be, it really doesn't bother me at all. I'm able to appreciate Axl's beauty but never felt attracted to him. I'm all for Slash (?)

I gotta say, though, I think Axl might have pushed it a bit too far with that thong in RIR 91. He almost got raped on stage 

[killuridols]

Omg what a debate!

I am very proud of all of you participating and sharing your opinions on the topic. It is all amazing and I've waited a long time for this kind of candy to return here

 

So, I'd like to add some more to what's been said...

First of all, I take my hat and a bow to @Tori72's latest post because, IMO, she's nailed many things and it really shows she's lived those years intensely, as my experiences are pretty similar to those of her. Specially this:

8 hours ago, Tori72 said:

GnR was far away from anything similar to Justin Bieber or whatever those heartthrobs are called today.

Axl also was never the classic heartthrob material, so to speak. He was not Brad Pitt or Jonny Depp or Jon Bon Jovi. His personality was far to complex and not at all easy going. He was a badass and arsehole and also the little girls knew it. 

From where I lived in the early 90ies, suddenly a lot of the "cool guys" who never liked Metallica or GnR or any other Hardrock before, started listening to Nirvana and Red Hot Chili Peppers, for example. But not GnR. Wether it was before UYI or after I don't recall but I remember this one discussion about music on a party. Where I was "Why do you like bands like Nirvana all of a sudden when you have never been interested in anything Hardrock or Rock n Roll like AC/DC or GnR before?" And they go: AC/DC is old men rock, GnR is uncool because Axl is a complicated diva, insane and what have you and Nirvana was just cool and musically talented. (And I am sure they never were interested to get to know Axl's personality better. They just had this opinion about this one celebrety and that's it.)

It always is a question of taste, sure. But to me there was was a culture gap between the upcoming grunge and GnR. (always liked both.) This is why I tend to think that GnR was indeed the last real rock n roll band with its rock n roll heroes types.

Exactly this.

I felt like that too and I totally agree with the culture gap you mention because it really felt like we were trapped between the end of the 80's and the beginning of the 90's, in which GN'R was cool just for a couple years and then it was only cool to be a Nirvana or Pearl Jam fan, while GN'R was regarded as the last dinosaur of rock.

9 hours ago, Tori72 said:

Unlike the other guys in the band, even unlike Slash, Axl was/is this sparkling character of soft and hard, of macho and sensitivity, of hurt and violence, of piano based soulful ballads (without being corny Bon Jovi) and this tantrum throughing, riot enhancing tough guy. So all these contradictions in Axl's personality were hyped by the media and this is what people knew of him who were not really interested. His interview in the Rolling Stone, for example, about his abuse in his childhood was only superficially coverd by the teen yellow press here. Nobody never understood what really went on and the info "he got beaten a lot and probably even raped as a child" just added to his sparkling celebrity thing. Sick as it is. I don't recall any article or discussion with people where this aspect of his life and personality got discussed seriously. I was shocked when I learned it but didn't know where to get any more information about it as I didn't know the scource back then.

Very much on point and also my experience as well.

The criticism of Guns back then was focused on Axl being mainly an asshole who mistreated fans, incited riots and walked out of stage leaving thousands of fans disappointed. I don't think there was anything related to his looks at all. It was mostly about his personality and behavior.

His beauty was so obvious that there was no need to point that out. He was just beautiful and people could notice but there was not a big deal out of it in the media. Now its different and you can find people talking about his looks for who HE WAS, so that's what I understand from why it is a subject of conversation in social media. I think the comments made now have no validity or influence on how things were back in the day.

About the Rolling Stone interview, pretty much on point with my perceptions as well. In my opinion, this has to do mainly with the times we were living. It was the 90's and there were no awareness about domestic violence, rape, abuse, child abuse or any other subject related to sexuality. People were still struggling with understanding AIDS and how you had to protect yourself from catching it. In the 90's there was no such thing as LGTB rights and homosexuals were seen as pariah, sick people, bearers of the HIV and all kinds of monstruosity..... so the context played a big role in having Axl's abuse confessions overlooked, minimized or not addressed as it would have happened if it had been revealed in this time and era we are living now.

9 hours ago, Tori72 said:

Another celebrity I can think of that got idolized so much and showed some contradiction in his personality is Elvis. So when Elvis got fat and glamorous in Vegas, he got criticized as well but I am not sure if to such an extrend as Axl. I tend to think one reason is because Elvis still produced new music at that time or am I mistaken? As Axl is not, his aging has been scrutiniezd solely on nostalgia of what he once was. Other male idols like Jim Morrisson or Marlon Brando were both very handsome in younger years but turned fat when older. Both of them were still working and producing new music / films and thus could develop their youthful sex idol image into somethin else.

In my perception, Axl is far from being the only male celebrity in the world who is subject of this heavy criticism of his looks. There have been and there are far more famous and popular celebrities who have been criticized and crucified for a lot more than Axl. Call it Elvis, Jim Morrisson, John Lennon (who ended up at the hands of a fan), Michael Jackson and Madonna, just to name a few people who, I think, receive a lot of negative attention as well.

The androgynous look is very hard to pull well when a man (or woman) are over 40 so this is why, I assume, people also see it as a sign of inmaturity and bad taste to look like an "old lady" or a "grandma", if as a man, you could pick a different look that suits your age better.

In general, man and women, trying to look younger than they are gets a lot of criticism from people because they feel they are holding on to a image of youth that is fake.

 

15 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Sometimes it feels like even us here are “analyzing” him like we’d do if he was a fictional character in a novel, a movie or a TV series, not a real life human being. Although Axl was direct and open about his feelings, he’s had this rockstar persona which, combined with his adventurous life, the mystery around him when he disappeared from the public eye, and of course his beauty, caused him to be subconsciously perceived as a kind of mythical figure that is not “allowed” to grow old, gain weight and change in general.

To a certain extent he is, indeed, similar to a fictional character in a movie or TV series, because what we see of him onstage it is a performance and not exactly how he is in real life or when he is with his people. 

Like I said before, to me he's nothing special when it comes to the "treatment" of celebrities he gets in comparison to other celebrities. It feels like many of us tend to think he's the only famous guy with crazy fans in the world but this is not true. We all live in some sort of a bubble here in this forum. If we visited other places, forums or websites dedicated to other musicians, we'd understand this happens to everybody he's just a bit famous. The scrutiny is part of being famous, a celebrity and entertainment in general.

None of us interact with Axl Rose in real life, as to be able to "humanize" him, like we do with our neighbors, the guy from the grocery or our relatives..... Hell, even in this forum many of us tend to "dehumanize" the other because we don't see each other's faces, so sometimes we go attacking each other like we were the worst enemies, when in fact, none of this would happen in a real life, face to face situation.

All in all, one thing that has impacted me was to read some people saying they would have preferred for Axl to DIE in the 90's and leave this world with that perfect image of him being beautiful, young and a great singer. As oppossed to what he's become now, a fat ugly guy who can barely sing.

This is shocking to find out and read but I have realized this is a desire of some people who maybe do not like to acknowdlege they have aged too and see in Axl the passage of time, which is very cruel sometimes.

 

15 hours ago, Blackstar said:

And another thing is, I think, that the relationship between Axl and a part of his fans is an unhealthy one – I guess like many of Axl’s relationships, but, in this case, it’s on both his and the fans’ part.

Again, I think all celebrities of a big caliber like Axl, have "unhealthy" fans or unhealthy relationships with fans. I bring the case of John Lennon here again. That's the epytome of having a fan who loves/hates you until unknown dimensions.

All the stalkers and people in general who cross the limits between admiring someone and reaching out to them to enter in personal contact just to hurt them or force themselves onto them. That's really fucked up shit. And I was always scared that Axl could be subject of one of this attacks because I also perceive this unhealthy relationship with some fans.

11 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

No, what I meant is they were the band that would have a massive group of teenagers screaming at their hotel and stuff like that, as it happens with Bieber now. Still, reading what you're saying, it looks like the situation was extremely different overall.

It's cool the image people would have of you for liking Guns N' Roses, you lesbian junkie 

No, the situation was not "extremely different" overall but I think there was a difference between what you are talking about and the Bieber phenomenom.

Back in the day they did have a massive group of crazy teenagers screaming their asses off at their hotel and chasing them around but, at least in Argentina, there were two scenarios slithgly different: the people or girls who were screaming at their hotel were not exactly the same people that attended those shows.

I remember lots and lots of girls like me who were not allowed to attend their concerts or not even be helped to get there because our parents were horrified by what the media portrayed about this band before they set foot here: they said GN'R was going to cause a riot, that they had burned our flag and that the River Plate "barra brava" was going to equally distribute beatings here and there to all the attendees of the show.

So I guess that most of the girls who were screaming for them were just there because there was no chance to go to the show... then at the show, the audience was more adult, with a mixture of people in their late teens or twenties and some brave parents who decided to accompany their children.

Also, there is something funny I love to do which is try to listen to "the voice of the crowd" to figure out the percentage or female attendance vs. male attendance. I think GN'R got a mixed "voice" of little squeals at times and others more deep male like. Then compare it to a Metallica "crowd voice" or ACDC and then to the crowd of a Justin Bieber

 

[The Cosmic Ted]

On 10.3.2017 at 10:17 PM, L'HopitalsRule said:

But I mean really as long as he is happy and healthy there is really no reason to criticize a particular individual's appearance. I mean, all the band members look pretty good considering they are in their 50s. (Compared to most 50 year old men) As long as Axl sounds great on stage I personally have no major concern.  

I really don't think he is happy or healthy. Sometimes you can see something is wrong..

[MillionsOfSpiders]

1 minute ago, The Cosmic Ted said:

I really don't think he is happy or healthy. Sometimes you can see something is wrong..

This is something that is coming up time and again from some fans who suspect Axl isn't really that happy, there's just something not quite right. 

[killuridols]

8 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

This is something that is coming up time and again from some fans who suspect Axl isn't really that happy, there's just something not quite right. 

Not only the fans have visualized this

[BorderlineCrazy]

30 minutes ago, killuridols said:

No, the situation was not "extremely different" overall but I think there was a difference between what you are talking about and the Bieber phenomenom.

Back in the day they did have a massive group of crazy teenagers screaming their asses off at their hotel and chasing them around but, at least in Argentina, there were two scenarios slithgly different: the people or girls who were screaming at their hotel were not exactly the same people that attended those shows.

I remember lots and lots of girls like me who were not allowed to attend their concerts or not even be helped to get there because our parents were horrified by what the media portrayed about this band before they set foot here: they said GN'R was going to cause a riot, that they had burned our flag and that the River Plate "barra brava" was going to equally distribute beatings here and there to all the attendees of the show.

So I guess that most of the girls who were screaming for them were just there because there was no chance to go to the show... then at the show, the audience was more adult, with a mixture of people in their late teens or twenties and some brave parents who decided to accompany their children.

Also, there is something funny I love to do which is try to listen to "the voice of the crowd" to figure out the percentage or female attendance vs. male attendance. I think GN'R got a mixed "voice" of little squeals at times and others more deep male like. Then compare it to a Metallica "crowd voice" or ACDC and then to the crowd of a Justin Bieber

 

The amount of shit the media made up before those shows was insane. Let's not forget the "Axl said he's gonna burn his shoes as soon as he leaves Argentina" bullshit and even our legendary (not exactly for the best reasons ) president talking shit about them and saying he wanted to ban the band. Also, too bad Noelle Balfour couldn't help Axl set the record straight by giving the worst translations in the history of mankind 

Axl even gave a press conference and an interview before the shows, which shows how fucked up things were, there must have been a lot of tension at that time. Also, I believe Axl would have cancelled the show with all the shit that was thrown at the stage in 92 if it was somewhere else but there was a feeling that cancelling that show would lead to a huge tragedy.

I've paid attention to the "crowd voice" at those shows too and it's pretty funny. There are certain moments when it feels like it's a Miley Cyrus concert or something. But it's true that doesn't mean it was all girls in the crowd, just that that kind of high pitched voice stands out a lot more... and also probably men weren't screaming like crazy during November Rain for example 

[killuridols]

12 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

The amount of shit the media made up before those shows was insane. Let's not forget the "Axl said he's gonna burn his shoes as soon as he leaves Argentina" bullshit and even our legendary (not exactly for the best reasons ) president talking shit about them and saying he wanted to ban the band. Also, too bad Noelle Balfour couldn't help Axl set the record straight by giving the worst translations in the history of mankind 

Axl even gave a press conference and an interview before the shows, which shows how fucked up things were, there must have been a lot of tension at that time. Also, I believe Axl would have cancelled the show with all the shit that was thrown at the stage in 92 if it was somewhere else but there was a feeling that cancelling that show would lead to a huge tragedy.

I've paid attention to the "crowd voice" at those shows too and it's pretty funny. There are certain moments when it feels like it's a Miley Cyrus concert or something. But it's true that doesn't mean it was all girls in the crowd, just that that kind of high pitched voice stands out a lot more... and also probably men weren't screaming like crazy during November Rain for example 

Yes, yes, it was basically the end of the world

Like we didn't have real problems to care about........... omg, how times have changed

 

[BlondeIllusion]

This and the other thread are a fucking ride and should honestly just become The Great Big Axl Rose Thread, considering we're doing so much "analysis" of him.

I'd contribute my own, but this place probably has me covered.

[marlingrl03]

1 hour ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

I've paid attention to the "crowd voice" at those shows too and it's pretty funny. There are certain moments when it feels like it's a Miley Cyrus concert or something. But it's true that doesn't mean it was all girls in the crowd, just that that kind of high pitched voice stands out a lot more... and also probably men weren't screaming like crazy during November Rain for example 

Speaking of November rain...well at the SF show, the guys next to me were feeling good after having some beers, and when Axl started to sing it they like wrapped one arm around each other's shoulders swaying side to side singing it and feeling the moment. It was pretty dang cute haha!

[Archtop]

4 hours ago, KiraMPD said:

 

Now I would like to ask those that were around in the 80's/90's, do you think Axl's androgynous look was objectified back in the day more or less than it is now? Because what I have observed online in the past 15 years is that the objectification of the androgynous figure and association of feminine terms such as "pretty" to Axl is more of a recent development that seems to stem from the female fans.

There are some really good posts in the last couple of pages regarding the scrutiny of Axls looks. Yes Axl was pretty, most likely a female born term, as to this day, if I refer to a man as pretty my husband will still say do you mean handsome? he can't get his head around me refering to a man in this way as not being derogatory or casting doubt about there sexuality.

 I saw G n R in 1991 and could not really get any of my friends to go with me, they were all Nirvana fans. Putting music tastes aside, I just think Axl didn't have the most identifiable image for a lot of guys, low slung leather trousers, vest tops and  bandanas, or very few clothes or OMG a skirt (on that very skinny frame) it is not an every day look. Kurt Cobain however you could pick that look up in any men's wear store on every high street. Even Slash was more identifiable than Axl, behind the crazy hair it was basically T-shirts and black jeans and a leather jacket its a look that could be and was easily adopted as long as you weren't trying to rock a top hat.

So why does Axl get more shit than Slash, (I personally think Axl currently looks better) perhaps it does have a lot to do with his attitude, Axl was clearly trying to present an image, build a persona it obviously mattered to him how he looked but always came across to me as contrived.  I think this is largely why he gets more shit, because people know he cares about how he looks, he has shown he worries about how people perceive him, to pick on somebodies weakness is the easiest form of attack.

Edited March 13, 2017 by Archtop

[Frey]

Great posts everyone, some very smart ladies (and gentlemen) here in this thread. I especially agree with @Blackstar @Lumikki and @Tori72s posts. Spot on.

20 hours ago, SerenityScorp said:

Now You know  You have to learn, Gurl~ From Chairman,  Dgnr N' Me  Be natural 

Somehow this is like He tells Us tht He got crush N' its the Rose *You know which Rose

Somehow I knew someone was gonna interpret this post this way as soon as I saw it

20 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Actually it looks like Rose Dorn is Meegan's youngest daugher's band which is kinda cool. I wonder if GNR (or Axl) inspired the name.

@solstar I had never heard that story of Cerati and Axl, that's great! I know they've met other times too and hang out together but this one I had never heard it.

It's Meegan's youngest daughter's band? Cool, didn't know that. Nice of Slash to help her out. And interesting choice of band name and artwork.

17 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Well, from what I've seen, some of Axl's biggest haters are huge fans of him who at some point got really disappointed, lost hope and felt let down by him. I think that's mostly fans' fault. When you see some person as the most perfect thing in the universe, you're setting yourself up for disappointment, no one can live to such absurd expectations. Loving someone means embracing who they are, accepting the good and the bad. Otherwise, you just love something that simply doesn't exist and once the bubble burst and you see the imperfections, you end up hating and blaming the other for not being something he never was. It's unfair and fucked up.

Also, thinking musicians owe you an autograph because you buy their records or go to their shows is the stupidest thing in the world. You don't do those things as a favor to the artists, you go to the shows because you love the band and think you're going to have a great time. There can be exceptions (like supporting a local band) but most of the times, people go to shows for selfish reasons, not as a charity action towards the band.

I agree, and I think it's kind of dumb to set yourself up for disappointment like that. As I mentioned in another thread recenty, it pays to be a pessimist when it comes to this band. I've never really felt let down or anything because I always expect the worst from all of them.

4 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

This is something that is coming up time and again from some fans who suspect Axl isn't really that happy, there's just something not quite right. 

And I have cause to suspect we're right, unfortunately.

6 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

I think he looked delicious!  Haha just kidding but honestly it doesn't bother me at all. Maybe it's because I got used to seeing him (un)dressed like that as I've been obsessed with GNR videos for over a decade, or maybe it's because I've never felt confused, unconfortable and it never made me question my sexuality. Whatever the reason may be, it really doesn't bother me at all. I'm able to appreciate Axl's beauty but never felt attracted to him. I'm all for Slash (?)

  Slash needs some lovin' too

7 hours ago, Andy14 said:

This all makes me think why is this so? Do or did those men feel violated by Axl's look. Do they feel that admitting they like Axl means admitting they like a guy with girly features which can question their sexuality and masculinity? @MillionsOfSpiders

Btw. What do @Frey and @BorderlineCrazy think of Axl in his tiny white shorts? 

Honest answer: Yes, imo.

You wouldn't believe how many guys there are who are really touchy about their sexuality and their sense of masculinity. I've mentioned this before I think, but I'll freely admit young, pretty, girly glam Axl falls into sexually confusing territorry for me lol. I don't feel that way about any of the other guys in GNR (probably because they're too manly ) or guys in general for that matter, but Axl was just pretty and feminine enough in some pictures/videos to make me look twice.

As for his shorts, pretty much what @BorderlineCrazy said. They're basically just his stage outfit to me and I'm used to seeing him like that, so I don't really pay attention to all of that anymore. Sorry for the boring answer

 

 

 

Edited March 13, 2017 by Frey

[beautifulanddamned]

This is a really fascinating conversation with some great insights from all of you. I think that some of the focus on Axl's look is just a symptom of society's negative view of aging now. And Rock and Roll is a young man's game. Bands almost always get famous when they are in their early to mid 20's. When they are young and beautiful. And GNR is the absolute epitome of that. Appetite is the very essence of youth- it's all about what you want in this very moment. I'm starving, I'm frightened, I'm angry, I'm horny, I'm in love, I'm happy. It lives in the now in the way that you only really can when you are young and your main priority is just to survive. It's what makes that album so vital. And the Appetite 5 at the time were very beautiful boys. For most people, when they think of GNR they will always see this:

Add to that the fact that the grand majority of the world didn't pay attention to NuGuns in any capacity. For most people Axl and Co. disappeared for the better part of 25 years. Axl wasn't culturally relevant, people weren't paying attention. So for a lot of them Axl aged overnight- he simply does't match the vision of him that was held in everyone's collective conscious for decades. Contrast this with Slash, who I love thinking about in this regard because Slash's hair, hat and sunglasses have made him literally faceless and ageless and might be one of the best unintentional image managing moves of all time. He still basically looks the same- just meatier. No one really cares about Duff.

Axl was pretty but I don't remember him being viewed as especially feminine. Super macho guys in lip gloss and ass-less chaps... it was just a thing. It was a pretty wide spread trend in music in the 80s. The real problem with Axl's image seems to be that people have no empathy for Axl personally. When the 'Axl fat memes' came out a few years ago I remember lots of people commenting on one site that I frequented, "well, you get the face and body you deserve." It's hard for any rock star to age gracefully but if you are seen as a misogynist, sexist, homophobic, racist, wife beating little punk, people aren't going to have sympathy for that. And if you are going to make fun of someone, their looks are the easiest target.  Axl's just an easy target. 

[sanity_lost]

I like this turn in the topic. It is giving me more and more things to think about.

Deep analytical dissecting and philosophizing is probably my way of dehumanizing. I always want to know what makes people tick. I want to know what they are thinking and why they do what they do. I want to know and understand their view of the world. Most of all I want to know peoples thoughts on things. I want to learn. I probably poke and prod and try to dissect to an uncomfortable extent.

 

51 minutes ago, Archtop said:

So why does Axl get more shit than Slash, (I personally think Axl currently looks better) perhaps it does have a lot to do with his attitude, Axl was clearly trying to present an image, build a persona it obviously mattered to him how he looked but always came across to me as contrived.  I think this is largely why he gets more shit, because people know he cares about how he looks, he has shown he worries about how people perceive him, to pick on somebodies weakness is the easiest form of attack.

I kind of think part of Axl's problem is he didn't have an image. Slash clearly had an image and he (mostly) stuck to it, especially as they got older. He seamlessly emphasized the cool laid-back,  leather pants and top hat part of his image when moving away from the druggy image. Cool is always popular.

Axl didn't have an image. Bandana and leather pants only lasted a short amount of time. It was ass-less chapter and girl's blouses before that. There were kilts and leggings and little skimpy shorts. Then later on it was baggy clothes and cornrows. Part of Axl's problem was he went with whatever flight of fancy that took him. If a fan became introduced during the Appetite run they were expecting bandana's and leather pants. It is amusing to see how many people reject Gun's glam band origins. Or if they do acknowledge it say it was only Axl who was being glammy. All of them were  wearing make up and girl's blouses. Izzy was inspired by Hanoi Rocks. It was what they needed to do to get a foot hold. Sorry... got distracted. Back to my point. Fans who were introduced to the Appetite period wanted the leather pants and bandana. Skimpy little shorts running around like a mad demon is a huge switch from the bandana leather clad snake dancer. So yeah, not an easy pill to swallow if you are into music as much for the image it brings as the music. People don't like their expectations to be contradicted. That gap between expectation and what you get causes discomfort which then generally turns into anger. Angry and unhappy people like to hurt other to make themselves feel better and as you said, the best way to hurt someone is to attack them where they are sensitive.

Not only that some people just like to pick on people who they perceive as weak. I guess it makes them feel better about themselves. Axl is clearly sensitive and therefore "weak" in some people's eyes.

7 hours ago, Andy14 said:

This all makes me think why is this so? Do or did those men feel violated by Axl's look. Do they feel that admitting they like Axl means admitting they like a guy with girly features which can question their sexuality and masculinity? Let me tell you my opinion. 25 years ago Axl was absolutely beautiful, with his facial features, hair, body....you can say you didn't like the way he looked, but you can't say he was ugly. Plus his stage performance and clothes. I feel that now when he's older and doesn't look the way he used to is somehow satisfying for a certain group of men. Now they can say "omg, look at how horrible he looks", and point out his flaws, like hair, gut and so. It may make them feel better about ourselves, that one the perfectly looking guy is aging and not looking perfect anymore. It's not a secret that when people talk about flaws of others they hide their own flaws (which may be the same).

I think part of it is expectation not being met. People like to put people and things into categories and boxes and when they don't actually fit in the box it causes discomfort. For each person it could be a different thing that bothers them. People have ideas on how people should and should not behave. Then, of course, you also have to factor in clannish behavior. You may have done something to hurt my clan/cause so I have to actively dislike you (whether it is real or imagined). Example. A fan of working man rock may think that Guns n' Roses made their favorite type of rock music have a much harder hill to climb in respectability as people are not a fan of rock at all will clump them all together.

I also agree humans do have a tendency to try to devalue others to make ourselves or things we like seem more valuable.

There were other things I wanted to say, but I can't remember what they were.

[Mararoyce]

8 hours ago, Andy14 said:

@Blackstar Great post! I'd like to add something to the "how men react to Axl's look" topic, because I think it's an interesting phenomena. 

I have some friends among "motorbike gang" lol, and all those men seem to be obsessed with "looking and acting manly", which is not only reflected in the way they look but also in the music they listen. However, they judge musicians by their looks as well. Which means that the "real rock" is represented by bands such as Metallica, Iron Maiden or AC/DC. When you mention GNR, they react like "oh, come on, Axl looks like a fag" even though they admit their music is quite good. It seems like Axl's look comes first and his music second.

The same as you, @Blackstar or @Lumikki pointed out. The ACDC fans. I've read a lot of posts on their forum and they can't get over the fact how Axl looked back in the day. They think that the real hard rock can be represented only by men like Brian Johnson and his workman look, not by a girl like Axl. And when you add the fact he plays the piano....OMG what a disgrace...a guy playing the piano and looking androgynous in a macho band like ACDC? No way.

I've also come across some YT comments. Many of the comments written by men discussing Axl's look are negative. Be it that he looked too girly back in the day, the way he dressed, the fact "he was wearing a skirt" or comments about "the old fatso", "old cat lady". 

This all makes me think why is this so? Do or did those men feel violated by Axl's look. Do they feel that admitting they like Axl means admitting they like a guy with girly features which can question their sexuality and masculinity? Let me tell you my opinion. 25 years ago Axl was absolutely beautiful, with his facial features, hair, body....you can say you didn't like the way he looked, but you can't say he was ugly. Plus his stage performance and clothes. I feel that now when he's older and doesn't look the way he used to is somehow satisfying for a certain group of men. Now they can say "omg, look at how horrible he looks", and point out his flaws, like hair, gut and so. It may make them feel better about ourselves, that one the perfectly looking guy is aging and not looking perfect anymore. It's not a secret that when people talk about flaws of others they hide their own flaws (which may be the same). 

And the white shorts as @MillionsOfSpiders mentioned. Yes, the nightmare of many guys haha. It's true that when you watch Axl in those shorts with his genitals exposed right into your face, it must be very unpleasant for many guys. But from some of the comments I have the feeling that some of the men are only drama queens acting like they were watching a gay porn. 

Btw. What do @Frey and @BorderlineCrazy think of Axl in his tiny white shorts? 

This was very insightful with a few chuckles thrown in. Good post.

[Whiskey Rose]

7 hours ago, KiraMPD said:

I also think that unlike other rockstars that have aged not so gracefully, Axl was out of the public eye long periods and every time he came back his looks appear to drastically change which added a shock value to it. I believe this is the artifact of not allowing the public to see a gradually aging individual

I was coming here to post this exact thought. If you have the same friends that you see regularly for 20 or so years, in a way they always look the same to you, kind of like they did back when you first met..UNTIL you go through old pictures and are shocked into realizing how YOUNG everyone looked then, and how we really have indeed aged. dammit.

Axl had long straight hair, bandana, sunglasses, tight fitting clothes. Then he left, and the next time we saw him he had a face peel, cornrows and baggy pants. Shock! And then he disappeared again, and a lot of people didn't even know about CD..now he's back in the limelight with the reunion, people are expecting bandana man again and Shock! Who is this 54 yr old individual when he is still 29 in most people's minds. Bc they didn't see him age. It throws you for a loop.

Also, Axl was not considered androgynous back in the day..he was pure masculine energy..and most didn't see the original glammy glammy guy anyway..his fans went from breathless high school girls to tough biker dudes and I don't think any of us thought he was effeminate at that time.

[Mararoyce]

20 hours ago, Blackstar said:

I started writing this post hoping that there wouldn't be 20 more replies related to the subject to catch up before I finished it . In the meantime the thread took another turn and and the very interesting discussion on why Axl is criticized for his looks (and for his public image in general, I’d add) stopped .

Anyway, my two cents on the subject:

In my opinion the criticism is due to a combination of interrelated reasons, one of them being the “gender factor” brought up by @sanity_lost. I think her post was very much on point. It’s true that Axl is objectified in a way usually women are.  @Frey  and @Lumikki made also some great points about why it’s happening.

@killuridols is not wrong in that Axl had a macho male following (although that was about GnR as a whole, since it was a hard rock band and this genre has been traditionally macho, plus the lyrics etc), but, as I was there too in the late 80s-early 90s and I remember, when Axl changed his looks and some other things in the band (mainly the introduction of the piano) during the Illusions era, a part of the male fanbase was somehow “confused” and/or alienated. GnR may have continued to be featured in genre music magazines and Axl may have not been considered a gay icon like Prince, but there was a vibe among hard rock fans that GnR had become a soft band for girls; I remember someone from Metallica (Hetfield probably) bragging that they had won over the male crowd during the tour with GnR and saying mockingly that there were a lot of girls at the shows for GnR. We can see it in this forum too; there have been quite a few posts by male members saying that Axl’s outfits (especially the shorts) were “embarrassing” for a rock ‘n’ roll band – one even said that Axl’s piano songs are “sissy”.

In regards to how Axl has been perceived by the general public: I agree with @Frey that there are many people calling him a “fag” etc. and I too have noticed what @Lumikki said about AC/DC fans. And this is not about Axl’s current image; I’ve seen comments under videos from old performances on youtube, and gifs of Axl dancing in his shorts posted in the AC/DC forum to point out that he doesn’t fit and he’s a “disgrace” for a band like AC/DC and also to compare him to the “masculine” Brian Johnson.  As for Axl’s behaviors (the aggressiveness, the tantrums), I think that they were mostly seen as acts of a spoiled rockstar/Hollywood diva regardless of sex/gender.

----

Another reason, that doesn’t have much to do with the gender factor and it has to do with the sort of criticism towards Axl as a public figure in general and not just his appearance, is that, in my opinion, Axl is sort of dehumanized by the fans and the general public. It’s a thing that people tend to do with some celebrities and think they can say what they want about them, judge their life, their looks etc with no limits. It’s something I’ve noticed in all the public talk about him. Sometimes it feels like even us here are “analyzing” him like we’d do if he was a fictional character in a novel, a movie or a TV series, not a real life human being. Although Axl was direct and open about his feelings, he’s had this rockstar persona which, combined with his adventurous life, the mystery around him when he disappeared from the public eye, and of course his beauty, caused him to be subconsciously perceived as a kind of mythical figure that is not “allowed” to grow old, gain weight and change in general.

I don’t know if I’m making any sense with all this, but I’ve been thinking it also in comparison to the Izzy thread:  how respectful the ladies and the guys there are to Izzy and how concerned they are not to cross the line by posting anything inappropriate that might be upsetting to him. It could be argued that Izzy has earned the respect by keeping his life private and with his general behavior (whereas Axl in the past had put a big part of his personal life in display). But then, we have the recent example of Steven, for whom I think it can rightfully be said that he has made his bed at least as much as Axl has made his in this regard (he went in a fucking reality rehab show): people here reacted when the brain damage speculation was brought up as it was seen as disrespectful and diminishing to Steven as a human being, while it’s considered okay to say anything about Axl, his mental health, his looks etc.

And another thing is, I think, that the relationship between Axl and a part of his fans is an unhealthy one – I guess like many of Axl’s relationships, but, in this case, it’s on both his and the fans’ part. Fandom in general may have some very fucked up aspects, like idolization/idealization, a sense of “ownership”, projection of one’s wishes/fantasies to their idols, etc. I’d say that some of Axl’s personality traits are reflected to the fans. Axl, perceived as a larger-than-life rockstar with all the “package” (including his looks) that his public persona consisted of (as @solstar described it), had a lot of power over the crowds and the fans (I remember a fan from the St. Louis riot show saying it). At first he liked it, then he saw it as a war between him and the fans. The fans were attracted by this persona, but in its ideal form; they saw in Axl what they wanted to be: a combination of beauty, uncompromising spirit, great performance ability and musical genius for some... and they expected him to be and behave according to this ideal image, like they owned him: “you are what you are because of us and you’ll be what we expect you to”; that Stump guy from St. Louis was a characteristic example: after the trial he asked Axl for his autograph, Axl told him “are you crazy?” and he said “I’m a fan, I put you up there and I’m entitled to it”. They wanted him to be wild, but in their own terms and not towards them (their “hero” can’t stop shows for things being thrown at him, he should stay there and take it). And when Axl disappointed them, they started devaluating him and “throwing stones” at him. And this love/hate thing continues to this day.

-----------

EDIT: I hope that other members contribute to this discussion. I'm sure they have interesting things to say.

Something interesting happened the other day.  A friend of mine from Bulgaria was invited to go to a birthday party that has a rock 'n' roll theme. Since she didn't know too many rock 'n' roll bands, I suggested that her husband go as Slash and she go as Axl, fitting since she is so lucky to have naturally red hair. She was intrigued so I grabbed my iPad to show her some looks on how to dress etc... Her first word when she saw Slash was "Sexy!" Mind you this was of his early shirtless, sweaty days, with his luscious hair. Yes, sexy. Older Slash still looks like Slash, just...older. 

Then when I showed her Axl pics she furled her brow and said 'That's him!?' She said she wouldn't recognize him if I didn't tell her, she made an exasperated face of shock of how could this cute young thing could turn into someone she couldn't even recognize. I started making excuses for him! But, this kind of opened my eyes, in the sense that when I see Axl, I see Axl. Just a little bigger, little puffier but I tend to zero in on the more adorable sides of him. Maybe the old cliché love is blind rings true here. 

[marlingrl03]

1 minute ago, Whiskey Rose said:

I was coming here to post this exact thought. If you have the same friends that you see regularly for 20 or so years, in a way they always look the same to you, kind of like they did back when you first met..UNTIL you go through old pictures and are shocked into realizing how YOUNG everyone looked then, and how we really have indeed aged. dammit.

Axl had long straight hair, bandana, sunglasses, tight fitting clothes. Then he left, and the next time we saw him he had a face peel, cornrows and baggy pants. Shock! And then he disappeared again, and a lot of people didn't even know about CD..now he's back in the limelight with the reunion, people are expecting bandana man again and Shock! Who is this 54 yr old individual when he is still 29 in most people's minds. Bc they didn't see him age. It throws you for a loop.

True....yes at first those people may have been shocked, but there have been instances during this tour where certain pics of Axl in his cap or just his red bandana made you think it was 1991 or something! You could not have said that when he was in NuGNR with that god awful mustache and just covered in big heavy jackets, sunglasses, hats, etc. Now... yes he is older, but in ok shape and I think he still looks good. Just hope he never ever goes back to the mustache and NuGuns look!!!!! 

[Whiskey Rose]

7 minutes ago, marlingrl03 said:

True....yes at first those people may have been shocked, but there have been instances during this tour where certain pics of Axl in his cap or just his red bandana made you think it was 1991 or something! You could not have said that when he was in NuGNR with that god awful mustache and just covered in big heavy jackets, sunglasses, hats, etc. Now... yes he is older, but in ok shape and I think he still looks good. Just hope he never ever goes back to the mustache and NuGuns look!!!!! 

Oh ya, most of us gals still think he looks good for sure. And let's all raise our glass to never seeing that friggen handlebar monstrosity again lol

[killuridols]

46 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Oh ya, most of us gals still think he looks good for sure. And let's all raise our glass to never seeing that friggen handlebar monstrosity again lol

BUT THE BOOTS!!!

[Blackstar]

7 hours ago, killuridols said:

Like I said before, to me he's nothing special when it comes to the "treatment" of celebrities he gets in comparison to other celebrities. It feels like many of us tend to think he's the only famous guy with crazy fans in the world but this is not true. We all live in some sort of a bubble here in this forum. If we visited other places, forums or websites dedicated to other musicians, we'd understand this happens to everybody he's just a bit famous. The scrutiny is part of being famous, a celebrity and entertainment in general.

...

Again, I think all celebrities of a big caliber like Axl, have "unhealthy" fans or unhealthy relationships with fans. I bring the case of John Lennon here again. That's the epytome of having a fan who loves/hates you until unknown dimensions.

I didn't say that Axl's case was unique or unprecedented. But it's not the case of the average celebrity (or people we don't know in general) either. In regards to dehumanization, I pointed out the difference in the "treatment" Axl gets in comparison to other band members.

10 hours ago, Andy14 said:

This all makes me think why is this so? Do or did those men feel violated by Axl's look. Do they feel that admitting they like Axl means admitting they like a guy with girly features which can question their sexuality and masculinity? Let me tell you my opinion. 25 years ago Axl was absolutely beautiful, with his facial features, hair, body....you can say you didn't like the way he looked, but you can't say he was ugly. Plus his stage performance and clothes. I feel that now when he's older and doesn't look the way he used to is somehow satisfying for a certain group of men. Now they can say "omg, look at how horrible he looks", and point out his flaws, like hair, gut and so. It may make them feel better about ourselves, that one the perfectly looking guy is aging and not looking perfect anymore. It's not a secret that when people talk about flaws of others they hide their own flaws (which may be the same). 

Very good point. We have a word in Greek about joy or self-satisfaction at someone else's failures or misfortune. I see that the only equivalent in English is the German-borrowed Schadenfreude.

9 hours ago, KiraMPD said:

Now I would like to ask those that were around in the 80's/90's, do you think Axl's androgynous look was objectified back in the day more or less than it is now? Because what I have observed online in the past 15 years is that the objectification of the androgynous figure and association of feminine terms such as "pretty" to Axl is more of a recent development that seems to stem from the female fans.

From what I remember it was less, but I think it's the internet that makes the difference.

1 hour ago, Whiskey Rose said:

9 hours ago, KiraMPD said:

I also think that unlike other rockstars that have aged not so gracefully, Axl was out of the public eye long periods and every time he came back his looks appear to drastically change which added a shock value to it. I believe this is the artifact of not allowing the public to see a gradually aging individual

I was coming here to post this exact thought. If you have the same friends that you see regularly for 20 or so years, in a way they always look the same to you, kind of like they did back when you first met..UNTIL you go through old pictures and are shocked into realizing how YOUNG everyone looked then, and how we really have indeed aged. dammit.

Axl had long straight hair, bandana, sunglasses, tight fitting clothes. Then he left, and the next time we saw him he had a face peel, cornrows and baggy pants. Shock! And then he disappeared again, and a lot of people didn't even know about CD..now he's back in the limelight with the reunion, people are expecting bandana man again and Shock! Who is this 54 yr old individual when he is still 29 in most people's minds. Bc they didn't see him age. It throws you for a loop.

1 hour ago, Mararoyce said:

Then when I showed her Axl pics she furled her brow and said 'That's him!?' She said she wouldn't recognize him if I didn't tell her, she made an exasperated face of shock of how could this cute young thing could turn into someone she couldn't even recognize

I thought of this too, but my post was already too long. Yes, there's a real issue with Axl's look, but I think it interrelates with the other factors.

3 hours ago, beautifulanddamned said:

Axl was pretty but I don't remember him being viewed as especially feminine. Super macho guys in lip gloss and ass-less chaps... it was just a thing. It was a pretty wide spread trend in music in the 80s. The real problem with Axl's image seems to be that people have no empathy for Axl personally. When the 'Axl fat memes' came out a few years ago I remember lots of people commenting on one site that I frequented, "well, you get the face and body you deserve." It's hard for any rock star to age gracefully but if you are seen as a misogynist, sexist, homophobic, racist, wife beating little punk, people aren't going to have sympathy for that. And if you are going to make fun of someone, their looks are the easiest target.  Axl's just an easy target. 

I agree that the glam look was acceptable, as well as, of course, the biker look of the late 80s. The Illusions era look though was going against the macho rock n roll stereotype; no one was dressing like that. A portion of the GnR fans didn't care about Axl's misogynism/sexism/homophobia, because they were these things themselves; they did care that their singer behaved like a diva and, on top of that, he looked like a fag and played piano ballads for girls and sissies. For others he was a misogynist etc. and a spoiled rockstar. So Axl was screwed. He's been seen as a sexist/homophobe... and also as not manly enough. What a mindfuck that is.

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Blackstar

[Whiskey Rose]

1 hour ago, killuridols said:

BUT THE BOOTS!!!

Who cares about the boots as long as we don't have to look at this?  

Ok its gone, ha!

Edited March 14, 2017 by Whiskey Rose
don't need to see this image more than once!

[Rocketqueen76]

31 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I didn't say that Axl's case was unique or unprecedented. But it's not the case of the average celebrity (or people we don't know in general) either. In regards to dehumanization, I pointed out the difference in the "treatment" Axl gets in comparison to other band members.

Very good point. We have a word in Greek about joy or self-satisfaction at someone else's failures or misfortune. I see that the only equivalent in English is the German-borrowed Schadenfreude.

From what I remember it was less, but I think it's the internet that makes the difference.

I thought of this too, but my post was already too long. Yes, there's a real issue with Axl's look, but I think it interrelates with the other factors.

I agree that the glam look was acceptable, as well as, of course, the biker look of the late 80s. The Illusions era look though was going against the macho rock n roll stereotype; no one was dressing like that. A portion of the GnR fans didn't care about Axl's misogynism/sexism/homophobia, because they were those things themselves; they did care that their singer behaved like a diva and, on top of that, he looked like a fag and played piano ballads for girls and sissies. For others he was a misogynist etc. and a spoiled rockstar. So Axl was screwed. He's been seen as a sexist/homophobe... and also as no manly enough. What a mindfuck that is.

 

Being around from the start, I can honestly say that it was definitely much less and I agree the introduction of the internet and social media pushed these issues to the forefront. But other artists such as Mick Jagger and Steven Tyler don't get scrutinized for how they've aged and quite frankly Steven looks far older than his years. While I'm on the subject, Steven Tyler also dressed in a feminine manner but never once was called fag or sissy or had his sexuality questioned. 

I guess with Axl as you stated, that is was a mixture of his behavior, androgynous look, and his proclivity to disappear that fuels these thoughts.

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

Who cares about the boots as long as we don't have to look at this?  

omg that was shocking to open this thread and that image looked like something else at first glance

 

[Whiskey Rose]

I know, I am debating deleting it.  But of course you see what I mean now, no?

@killuridols I think I actually will delete it....but how do I do that?? lol. And are you able to delete the image from your quote as well?

I can't even look at it, what have I done 

 

Edited March 14, 2017 by Whiskey Rose

[BorderlineCrazy]

12 minutes ago, Whiskey Rose said:

I know, I am debating deleting it.  But of course you see what I mean now, no?

@killuridols I think I actually will delete it....but how do I do that?? lol. And are you able to delete the image from your quote as well?

I can't even look at it, what have I done 

 

Don't delete it! People will think you're Izzy!