GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[chers]

It's so disgusting to some fans Axl can do no wrong, yeah  you think  the guy is perfect, wrong nobody is

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I went to most UK shows 2012, there were people there actually dressed as Slash  

No t shirts were banned at the shows I saw, I don't know where it comes from??  

Except the press in the UK are shady AF. 

Do you think this could be a shady GN'R fan who let media use his mug to ruin Axl Rose??
http://www.nme.com/news/music/guns-n-roses-129-1281737

[MillionsOfSpiders]

Just now, killuridols said:

Do you think this could be a shady GN'R fan who let media use his mug to ruin Axl Rose??
http://www.nme.com/news/music/guns-n-roses-129-1281737

Nope, I'm just saying what I saw when I went to those UK shows. I queued up next to a guy dressed as Slash and I thought they'd tell him to go home, but they never said a word. Saw lots of Slash t shirts, but I never once heard anyone being told to take them off. Or, am I a liar? 

[Lio]

1 minute ago, Kris_1989 said:

Have to disagree with this. While his reaction was overkill, Madison isn't entitled to anything for running a forum.

Even if you're a diehard fan, if you fuck up the band members have every right to call you out on it. No matter how much it stings. Obviously he could've been more professional but this is Axl we're talking about. Tact isn't exactly his strong suit.

Of course he was allowed to call her out on it, but like that? Really? How would you feel if he came out and started lashing out at random fans because they blame Axl for Izzy and Steven not being there? Because God knows he's being bashed constantly by some. Would that be okay too? If he came out to 'defend himself' and call a bunch of posters derogatory names? I wonder if some of you would still be applauding and cheering him on then. Jesus.

It would've been disrespectful and inexcusable if he'd done that to anyone, but bearing in mind this is someone who devoted years of her life to the band, well, that makes it even a bit more bitter to me. She wasn't fucking up the band members, was she? When did she do that? She was just giving the information she got at the time. Nothing wrong with that. If her information was wrong, maybe you know, they could've communicated it like civilised human beings?

As for her being entitled, yes, I think she deserves respect, same as every other human being.

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Nope, I'm just saying what I saw when I went to those UK shows. I queued up next to a guy dressed as Slash and I thought they'd tell him to go home, but they never said a word. Saw lots of Slash t shirts, but I never once heard anyone being told to take them off. Or, am I a liar? 

No, but you were like ONE person among how many... 20k??

Your experience in the queue may not be exactly the same as someone else who queued at another gate, 2 hours, 4 hours, or 1 hour before or after you did.
Your eyes cannot be the EYES of the whole stadium

Dude, I was on Duff's side of the stage last year and while we were waiting for the show to start I had no clue that on the other side of the stage, a bunch of people had broken a fence and entered the VIP area.
I learned about it next day, via YouTube.

In massive shows like these you cannot know everything that happens on each corner.

[Rocketqueen76]

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

In this ficticious rant you've made up I don't see a particular male-genderized insult since all of the names you are calling this ficticious man are neutral or could be applied to women as well.

But Mr. Axl did use female genderized insults in his rant like "arrogant c---" and "b--ch", which are both words used to look down a woman upon society.

Then he goes using "lesbian" as an insult among other names he calls her and throws it there, to cause the same effect: humilliation.

Whether she is homosexual or not, it should not be relevant for anyone and this sexual preference should not be used as an insult because it is nothing to be ashamed of and it does not modify who she is as a person.

So yes, this is a homophobic remark, as well as you suggesting to your ficticious man "maybe you should sleep with them too"... More of subtle remark but I think it is related with the topic and if you say that to a man, to insult him, then you are homophobic too.

 

So if you know it well then I don't understand what that last line was about and what point you were trying to make.

 

The point I was trying to make, is that Axl has every right to defend himself against personal attacks.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

12 minutes ago, killuridols said:

No, but you were like ONE person among how many... 20k??

Your experience in the queue may not be exactly the same as someone else who queued at another gate, 2 hours, 4 hours, or 1 hour before or after you did.
Your eyes cannot be the EYES of the whole stadium

Dude, I was on Duff's side of the stage last year and while we were waiting for the show to start I had no clue that on the other side of the stage, a bunch of people had broken a fence and entered the VIP area.
I learned about it next day, via YouTube.

In massive shows like these you cannot know everything that happens on each corner.

I get what you mean, but like I said, I went in through security with people dressed in the offending clothing, if it were a rule at the shows I saw I think they would've told the Slash look a like to get lost. Maybe some other security sections were told to tell people to remove Slash shirts and maybe some not is all I can think, but we were in a section really close to the stage. Who knows, i remember er worrying about it a little because I had a VR t shirt. I'm just glad we don't have to any more. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by MillionsOfSpiders

[stella]

48 minutes ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Didn't know that part. Like mother, like son (?) 

So all of that happened because of the Slash shirts gate? That's beyond stupid (from both sides). It's really silly to forbid Slash shirts at the shows but at the same time, why would you go to an Axl show with a Slash shirt knowing how they didn't get along at all back then? Those people deserved to be kicked out for being stupid attention seekers 

I was on the site when she was around. I'd given up on the forum by the time the infamous confrontation happened, but was there before. She was the main mod. While I had no issues with her, I know others did. When the site was revamped and/or sold (I don't know...I'd walked away by then) one of the specific things they did was let people know that the site was under new management and she wasn't modding anymore. I remember getting that email.

So I don't think it was just shirt-gate. I think, as others have said, it might have been more about anger that built up over time.

I am not going to excuse the objectionable words - 'lesbian' should never be used as a slur. But I also wonder how it has to be if you're a public figure and day in and day out, you're getting bashed left right and center, even on a site where people are supposed to be your fans. They always tell famous people, authors, writers, etc. not to Google themselves because it will make them upset - I would guess that those negative comments stay with you no matter how thick-skinned you are. And I would guess that it might be very, very hard not to reply with a hearty "fuck you" to people who are being cruel.

There are fan pages and Facebook pages where the celebs/public figures participate heavily, and sometimes they are absolute assholes to their fans. I've been completely turned off some celebs by the way they interact with their fans online.

Axl hasn't done that. He responded angrily once.
 

Edited April 1, 2017 by stella

[killuridols]

1 minute ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

The point I was trying to make, is that Axl has every right to defend himself against personal attacks.

And the male rape fits in how??

That point you were trying to make it is pointless and a false premise: no one here said Axl is not allowed to defend himself against personal attacks.

What is being questioned is the manner, the way he used.

 

Also, as far as I know, and please someone who knows the actual shit correct me if I'm wrong, Madison didn't blame Axl for the so called "orders from above".
Some suggested Axl may not have known this and that it was a decision made by TB themselves.

[killuridols]

5 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I get what you mean, but like I said, I went in through security with people dressed in the offending clothing, if it were a rule at the shows I saw I think they would've told the Slash look a like to get lost. Maybe some other security sections were told to tell people to remove Slash shirts and maybe some not is all I can think, but we were in a section really close to the stage. Who knows, i remeber worrying about it a little because I had a VR t shirt. I'm just glad we don't have to any more. 

Yeah, it's hard to tell.... but I can't believe either that kid will offer his mug and real name in a magazine like NME just to make up a story against Axl, his idol...

I don't know,,, maybe I'm being too naive?

[Rocketqueen76]

What I don't understand, is how anyone can feel like 

14 minutes ago, killuridols said:

And the male rape fits in how??

That point you were trying to make it is pointless and a false premise: no one here said Axl is not allowed to defend himself against personal attacks.

What is being questioned is the manner, the way he used.

 

Also, as far as I know, and please someone who knows the actual shit correct me if I'm wrong, Madison didn't blame Axl for the so called "orders from above".
Some suggested Axl may not have known this and that it was a decision made by TB themselves.

The male rape comment was a flip to the analogy you made in an earlier post.....and honestly if this Madison person (I only phrase it that way because I don't know her) hadn't made it her business to spread unfounded information around to the point that it eventually made it to the press, he wouldn't have felt the need to defend himself period. Again, he did it in the manner he saw fit.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Rocketqueen76

[Lio]

11 minutes ago, stella said:

I was on the site when she was around. I'd given up on the forum by the time the infamous confrontation happened, but was there before. She was the main mod. While I had no issues with her, I know others did. When the site was revamped and/or sold (I don't know...I'd walked away by then) one of the specific things they did was let people know that the site was under new management and she wasn't modding anymore. I remember getting that email.

So I don't think it was just shirt-gate. I think, as others have said, it might have been more about anger that built up over time.

I am not going to excuse the objectionable words - 'lesbian' should never be used as a slur. But I also wonder how it has to be if you're a public figure and day in and day out, you're getting bashed left right and center, even on a site where people are supposed to be your fans. They always tell famous people, authors, writers, etc. not to Google themselves because it will make them upset - I would guess that those negative comments stay with you no matter how thick-skinned you are. And I would guess that it might be very, very hard not to reply with a hearty "fuck you" to people who are being cruel.

There are fan pages and Facebook pages where the celebs/public figures participate heavily, and sometimes they are absolute assholes to their fans. I've been completely turned off some celebs by the way they interact with their fans online.

Axl hasn't done that. He responded angrily once.
 

I think the issue with Madison wasn't her view of Axl or GNR, but how she treated posters? Apparently she loved swinging her ban hammer

Yes, Axl hasn't done that. He doesn't interact at all (Not that I'd prefer him being an asshole to fans online. I'd rather he keeps quiet then.)

[MillionsOfSpiders]

9 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Yeah, it's hard to tell.... but I can't believe either that kid will offer his mug and real name in a magazine like NME just to make up a story against Axl, his idol...

I don't know,,, maybe I'm being too naive?

Maybe that's why they lined the front row with models in the UK, so Axl wouldn't see our Slash t shirts 

[marlenaire]

5 hours ago, SerenityScorp said:

It was a joke  Since You make it sounds like People with Phobia, Anxiety N' Depression are narcissism 

 

I didn't say that at all. I said it is a case with Axl and whoever is a Narcissist.

[stella]

24 minutes ago, Lio said:

I think the issue with Madison wasn't her view of Axl or GNR, but how she treated posters? Apparently she loved swinging her ban hammer

Yes, Axl hasn't done that. He doesn't interact at all (Not that I'd prefer him being an asshole to fans online. I'd rather he keeps quiet then.)

I think that is probably true, in regards to other posters.

I think it has to be really tricky for celebs to know how and when to interact with fans online. Something like an Instagram or Twitter where they post something and don't check the comments seem like it might be best. The only ones I have issues with are the ones who are openly nasty and rude to fans, as well as the ones that basically sic their fans on anyone who disagrees with them.

Having said that, JK Rowling is amazing with dealing with trolls  and negativity online. She could give clinics on how to deal with online nastiness with class and candor. She's answered back to people but she's always done it in such a brilliant way.

Edited April 1, 2017 by stella

[MillionsOfSpiders]

2 minutes ago, marlenaire said:

I didn't say that at all. I said it is a case with Axl and whoever is a Narcissist.

I forgot to ask you. Are you a fan of GnR? Axl? Or studying him as research about narcissism? Just curious  

[Zoot]

6 minutes ago, Lio said:

Of course he was allowed to call her out on it, but like that? Really? How would you feel if he came out and started lashing out at random fans because they blame Axl for Izzy and Steven not being there? Because God knows he's being bashed constantly by some. Would that be okay too? If he came out to 'defend himself' and call a bunch of posters derogatory names? I wonder if some of you would still be applauding and cheering him on then. Jesus.

It would've been disrespectful and inexcusable if he'd done that to anyone, but bearing in mind this is someone who devoted years of her life to the band, well, that makes it even a bit more bitter to me. She wasn't fucking up the band members, was she? When did she do that? She was just giving the information she got at the time. Nothing wrong with that. If her information was wrong, maybe you know, they could've communicated it like civilised human beings?

As for her being entitled, yes, I think she deserves respect, same as every other human being.

I said in my post he should've handled it more professionally, i.e. not calling her derogatory names. I never once applauded or cheered what he said.  

I've been called out by a band member and believe me it fucking sucks. But I never once turned around and acted like he should've filtered what he said because I've devoted 20 years to the guy. That sense of entitlement is just... I fucked up, he called me out, I apologized that was the end of it. If Madison had received a PM from TB about the issue why wouldn't she speak to them about it privately? Why not resolve it then? Why let it escalate to the point where Axl felt the need to lash out like he did? I wasn't on the forums back then but from everything I've read it seems like Madison was stirring the pot and it backfired on her. We may not like what Axl said but you have to step back and see that there were red flags leading up to the outburst. It's not like he attacked a random innocent fan.

And if Axl wants to lash out at me for things I've said on here in regards to Izzy & Steven, let him. We can't be on a forum posting our opinions left and right and then think it's not ok for a band member to do the same.

 

[killuridols]

4 minutes ago, Rocketqueen76 said:

and honestly if this Madison person (I only phrase it that way because I don't know her) hadn't made it her business to spread unfounded information around to the point that it eventually made it to the press, he wouldn't have felt the need to defend himself period. Again, he did it in the manner he say fit.

He's been attacked for far more serious reasons than this and by his own ex-bandmates (at the moment) and he replied only once via press release (the VR thing) but never in such a bad taste like this thing.

IMO, the Slash topic has always been a sore spot for him and his rage against Madison had nothing to do with the t-shirt gate per se, or how she was treating the fans in an online forum (lol, never heard such a ridiculous reason before... Axl, the guy who rather not have a website ever in his life, and shut down his own official forum in 1999, all of a sudden gives a fuck about a fan forum ) but with the fact that she was messing around with the object of his bad obsession for two long decades.

His rage, hatred an raw emotions towards Slash were being publicly exposed in a time when he was still trying to demostrate the world that he could do without Slash and the old Guns and give his 'Chinese Democracy' a chance.
 

8 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Maybe that's why they lined the front row with models in the UK, so Axl wouldn't see our Slash t shirts 

A barricade of intelligent models front row, so baby Axl wouldn't throw a tantrum at the unsuspecting Slash tshirt wearing GN'R fans

[marlenaire]

14 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

I forgot to ask you. Are you a fan of GnR? Axl? Or studying him as research about narcissism? Just curious  

No problem. I am a fan of GNR music. And yes, I am studying Axl as research about narcissism.

[MillionsOfSpiders]

12 minutes ago, killuridols said:

 

A barricade of intelligent models front row, so baby Axl wouldn't throw a tantrum at the unsuspecting Slash tshirt wearing GN'R fans

Yeah, I found the whole model thing much more disrespectful than the thought of maybe having to turn my t shirt inside out. 

The models being front row, blocking my view and looking at us like we were shit was a serious low point. Absolutely disgusting way to treat your fans, imo. 

[marlenaire]

6 hours ago, stella said:

 Actually, the respected body of written and filmed information on Hitler does not formally diagnose anything. They might restate Dx that were actually *in his medical record and diagnosed by HIS doctors,* and they might say, "He had ____ symptoms, which might have suggested _______ illness." But no, there isn't a reputable physician or mental health clinician anywhere who will tell you Hitler definitively had anything in particular unless it is something that was diagnosed by his own doctors. Same thing with George III. He had a lot of symptoms that would suggest a specific rare blood disorder, but since there is no tangible backup, reputable historians and doctors will not say he DID have it. They will only restate his symptoms.

The only time they will ever diagnose a historical figure - and that is a big ONLY- is when there's solid DNA evidence OR there's an actual body they can examine. Obviously that is for physical health issues and not mental ones. The Egyptian mummies would be an example. Yes, they have given some of those mummies medical diagnoses but they've also given them clinical evaluations, put them through CT scans and such.

 

"In 1943 William Donovan the director of the Office of Strategic Services (the forerunner to the CIA) approached Harvard psychologist Walter Langer and asked him to construct a psychological profile of Adolf Hitler.

Langer put together a team of psychologists and researchers. They interviewed key informants who knew Hitler personally and drew upon over 1000 pages of background research from a document known as The Hitler Source Book."

"The most famous psychological study of Hitler was done by Henry A. Murray, former director of the Harvard Psychological Clinic".

I am amazed how you all here focused on, dwelled and ridiculed the wording I am using and not on what I actually have to say.

Thanks to all that weren't mean.

[stella]

33 minutes ago, marlenaire said:

"In 1943 William Donovan the director of the Office of Strategic Services (the forerunner to the CIA) approached Harvard psychologist Walter Langer and asked him to construct a psychological profile of Adolf Hitler.

Langer put together a team of psychologists and researchers. They interviewed key informants who knew Hitler personally and drew upon over 1000 pages of background research from a document known as The Hitler Source Book."

"The most famous psychological study of Hitler was done by Henry A. Murray, former director of the Harvard Psychological Clinic".

I am amazed how you all here focused on, dwelled and ridiculed the wording I am using and not on what I actually have to say.

Thanks to all that weren't mean.

Wow. NOBODY here is ridiculing you. Nobody's being mean. Nobody targeted you as a person. If you take disagreement as "mean," I don't even know what to tell you.

And a psychological study by experts from Harvard working from primary source material is not the same as someone reading a message board and some news articles, making an armchair diagnosis and deciding it's fact.

[marlenaire]

7 minutes ago, stella said:

Wow. NOBODY here is ridiculing you. Nobody's being mean. Nobody targeted you as a person. If you take disagreement as "mean," I don't even know what to tell you.

And a psychological study by experts from Harvard working from primary source material is not the same as someone reading a message board and some news articles, making an armchair diagnosis and deciding it's fact.

Where did you get the idea on what material I am working on besides articles ? 

I do not want to agree or disagree on what I am allowed to write or say and I am doing only that since the beginning. Never got a chance to write anything about what I am working on.

And yes, many here were ridiculing and twisting my words - please read the previous posts.

 

Edited April 1, 2017 by marlenaire

[alfierose]

Hey everyone

I directed @marlenaire to this thread as it seems like she joined up to discuss various aspects of Axl's past. Please can we debate without troll hunting/sarcastic emojis and memes, it's not that long ago a number of you were complaining about newcomers not being given a bit of understanding whilst they get to grips with the dynamics of this thread.

However @marlenaire please understand that people on this thread and forum tend to argue quite robustly and it isn't personal to you. We do not allow personal attacks or insults here but reading through I think everyone has been civil in their disagreement.

You make some interesting points for debate although I don't think it's possible to state Axl has a specific disorder even if traits are evident. I hope you stay around and get to know some of the posters here because debating will become easier with time.

[stella]

34 minutes ago, marlenaire said:

Where did you get the idea on what material I am working on besides articles ? 

I do not want to agree or disagree on what I am allowed to write or say and I am doing only that since the beginning. Never got a chance to write anything about what I am working on.

And yes, many here were ridiculing and twisting my words - please read the previous posts.

Right here, actually. You told us what your source material was.

11 hours ago, marlenaire said:

Finally I found people here who I can talk to about this  I am in psychology, and I can tell you Axl has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, which is very serious ! I've been through many books about him and articles, but all of them miss the point, or they mis-diagnose him. Narcissism contain all the things that you are saying like depression, anxiety, phobia and many more - they are part of this main disorder! I am analyzing this for some time now, and all facts about Axl prove my theory. Whish is also why I am investigating his relationships - so please reply for my previous post - about Erin and Stephanie. I will write more about it if anybody is interested.

You came in and said, "Axl has this condition." If you want to think that criticism of your stance is somehow an attack on your person, that's unfortunate. Nobody needs to be the forum police, but IMHO we do have the right to point out when something is posted that is actually potentially harmful or hurtful. Giving an unfounded medical Dx is one of those things IMHO.

We do get passionate about what we post here, and it's nothing personal.

Thanks @alfierose.

Moving on.

Edited April 1, 2017 by stella